just saw that thing on tv. they got medicare and want to work. screw the mexs i’m going for it
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Are you talking abou the 60 Minute segment on the over 65 people still working?
I liked the 91 year old still working the crane thats 50 years younger than him.
I always miss the good ones . I hope I work till I die . Too much fun , and I hate soaps.
Tim Mooney
>>I hope I work till I die
I'm with you on that one. I have no interest in retiring. We HAVE quit doing roofing, however. The guy I work with says what are we going to retire from next? We just roof what we build. Leave it to the young guys starting up. What an opportunity for healthy unimployed. You could line roofs up so far you'd never catch up.
If you enjoy your work it's hard for me to understand why you would long to do nothing.
Fonzie,
If you happen to find any of those healthy un-employed looking for an opportunity---please send 'em my way,'cause I have jobs for 'em.
Funny thing is----and this is gonna sound harsh,---I go through a lot of guys like that each year who decide after a day or so that an opportunity for hard productive work with very good income potential is NOT the opportunity they are looking for.
It's an opportunity---but it's hard work. There is a reason a lot of healthy people are un-employed.
It's bad there is such encouragement of poverty by those contracting the "easy way out house" with other's money. Some of those mentioned might "take prime" if the carb was leaned out.
I am sorry Fonzie,but you are gonna have to translate that last post for me-----I can't decipher it at all. Seriously.
Stephen
BTW,
I CAN tell you that each year I will hire a number of individuals like you describe----I believe last years total was 7. young healthy men,no experience,swear up and down they want to learn a trade.They currently start without experience at $10-$11/hour. Before they even step foot on a job I verbally walk them through a typical project so they know exactly what work is involved.They also know they should be making $15-$17/hour within a few months if they apply themselves.Their first raise will generally come at the end of the first week----and I can't tell you how many young men I have taken to the store after a few days to PAY for their first set of tools( Estwing hatchet,snips,chalkline,tape,2 knives,screwdriver,channel locks etc.) Crew sizeranges from 2-4
I try to give them the same thing I was looking for 20 years ago---an opportunity.Last year the longest lasting one stayed 6 weeks and 1 day. Most don't make it through the first week or so.We typically work on site each day from 8 untill 2 or so,but I generally pay 8 hours pay for about 6 hours of steady work.It is an excellent opportunity for someone wanting to eventually go into business for themself----but a very poor opportunity for someone who would rather not exert themself.
Shazlett,
That sounds like a great thing, I wish my boss did something like that. Just wondering what part of the country are you in?
Halfway there to being OT, so this may be a little different take. Lots of good memories as others have related.
Biggest "rounding off of corners and tossing stupid liberal ideas" I ever got was first position in electrical systems group on the old 707 program. Immediate supervisor had survived both Soviet and Nazi forced labor/concentration camps, another older co-worker was in Jap prison camp (Japanese now, one granddaughter was born there so intended as historical reference rather than a slur, her Great-grandfather finally said he forgave the Japs for shooting at him) for four years, another had been Battle of Britan pilot, still another a Luftwafe pilot in WWII.
All of these guys had learned how to and still did literally everything for themselves, the guy in the SE Asia prison camp even had helped perform a successful appendectomy on the basis of only having read about it in school. The Nazi survivor built his own house 100%, also a cabin cruiser and airplane (vari-eze). Boy, did these guys ever fit in with my heritage. In HS and college, always felt like totally outside of any peer group. Went to work with these guys and felt like I was 'back home" or at least as being with the type group I belonged. ( a tiny little bit like this forumn)
CAG,
I am in Akron ,Ohio.
don't be mis-lead. I am sure a lot of the guys I go through would be happy to tell you what an A--hole I am!
I do figure I give them a pretty good opportunity though----most all of our work is repair work or replacing roofs on older homes.It's an excellent education in what OTHER people have done wrong on roofs----much more informative than slapping shingles on new construction projects!
Of course at my age (40) a lot of these young guys maybe consider ME one of those old timers!
I'm some people do think your an A hole, but your a boss, from what I noticed in my limited experience is most people dont understand the boss is in charge and that things are done a certain way for a reason. A lot of people also just dont like to work, just the paycheck
From what you described it sounds like a great oppurtunity, starting someone out at 11 and hour with no experience, buying them basic tools out of your pocket if I got that part right is more then fair. For that type of oppurtunity you should expect nothing less then an all out effort.
and this is coming from a 25 y/o so it may or may not have as much meaning.
>> ... most people don't understand the boss is in charge and that things are done
>> a certain way for a reason.
Unfortunately, all too often the reason things are done a certain way is that the boss is an @$$hole. A boss who can't or won't explain why things are done a certain way, or who concentrates on reminding his crew that he's in charge, will never get his people's best efforts. I've worked for some good bosses, and one of the things I learned is that people will work their hearts out for a really good boss. It's the difference between a leader and a manager.
you know,
I think Uncle Dunc has a pretty valid point----but maybe only from certain perspectives.I know a lot of us have probably learned some pretty cool tricks of the trade from employees and subs. Other things sometimes factor into the equation.
Sometimes I encounter an employee who has a fair amount of experience in new construction.Many of the common jobsite procedures that are perfectly acceptable in a new allotment are disasterous when applied in a well established neighborhood while working on occupied houses.
Sometimes an employee will have an idea that has some merit-----but I want to think about all the possible ramifications before we adopt it in the future.Maybe the boss REALLY doesn't have the time to explain WHY he wants something done a certain way today. I know I am often under serious time constraints,and if I have say 8 square of roofing to get torn off,repaired ,re-roofed and totally flashed before expected rain in mid afternoon ---I am gonna go with the procedures I KNOW are gonna work.I don't have time to spend on debate.Plus,if the employees idea doesn't work out the employee isn't the one who is gonna get sued---is he? Often the new employees "new idea" is one we tried and rejected years ago---and when I have more time I will explain that to him fully----but in the meantime I have a customer depending on me to beat that weather front.
I know for a fact that I have some procedures that when first encountered seem really inconvenient for in-experienced new hires----because they mean a lot of work for the new guy.But usually after a few days,if the new guy has been keeping his eyes open---he will see that the "inconvenient" procedures actually save a lot of time ,money,and effort for the whole crew in general.
Sometimes I will want an inexperienced guy to learn "lesson A"---a trivial matter---the hard way. That way when I show him lessons "B,C,& D" ---more important things---he will realize there is a reason we do things a certain way----and he will begin to think out the consequences of his and "OUR" actions more fully
You clearly have more experience on the boss side than I either have or want. Hard to argue with most of that. For one thing, I assumed that if you did take the time to explain something, the employee would than automatically do it your way. Ha ha. So if you're going to have to lean on him to do it right anyway, the explanation could well be a waste of time.
But since I love to argue ... :) Your repeated references to tight deadlines and new employees suggest high turnover. I'm convinced that a lot of outfits could cut their turnover way down, but for some reason they won't sit down and honestly add up what it costs to replace somebody. The reason they won't is probably that they don't have any idea what they could do about it and they have a strong suspicion that if they did add up the costs it would make them throw up, so it's easier not to.
Uncle Dunc,
Most of my opinions and experiences regaurding this stem from being a roofing contractor. My situation may not directly translate to acompany doing more general carpentry.
A tight deadline is the nature of my trade---that is it is imposed ENTIRELY by my obligation to the customer to protect his property from changing weather conditions.What we tear-off today in general,MUST be put back together today( before it rains)---thats the deadline. No way around it.
employee turn-over is more of a problem in my trade due simply to the nature of the work. We all know it is usually rather un-pleasant work ,don't we?
An entry level job in this trade is ,by its very nature, gonna have a pretty high turn-over.Ironically---hiring very experienced guys---say a guy with 10-20 years experience in this trade ( WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE APPTITUDE TO RUN HIS OWN BUSINESS) Means bringing on board employees with a whole 'nother set of baggage.I don't think this would be as big a problem for a contractor doing broader based carpentry.
the best bets seem to be with guys with maybe a couple of years experience---guys looking maybe to fine tune some skills,polish them selves up a bit before going into business for them selves. A guy like that is worth quite a lot---if you can find him. He is actually probably worth much more than the guy with 10-20 years experience----based on his productivity alone. again---I am speaking about MY trade---not necissarily your trade.
I am well aware of the cost of turn-over. The first day alone a new in-experienced employee will cost me AT LEAST $150, but will produce virtually zero billable work.Thats part of why I am often happy to encourage a new guy with potentiall by buying him maybe $100-150 in new gear.Plus T shirts,Sweat shirts etc.It's a simple business decision.
If you have any ideas on how to attract guys suited to this particular type of work,I would be MORE than happy to learn them.
This is purely speculation, since I've never had a chance to try it out. I have this crazy notion that nearly any employer who is willing to pay significantly more than the local average for whatever skill he's looking for, like 50% more, or even 100%, would attract way more applicants, and that out of that expanded pool of applicants, would be very likely to find a few whose productivity is high enough to justify the premium.
Studies in my trade, computer programming, say that there is a factor of 10 difference between the most productive and the least productive programmers, but the salary range is nowhere near that much.
I don't know if the productivity of roofers varies that much, but if the differences in wages don't reflect the differences in output, I think there's an opportunity there to hire some productive people.
Uncle Dunc,
while I appreciate your effort---I am afraid you are comparing apples with oranges.
the value of the work created by a computer programer has unlimited potential.
The value of the work created by a roofer has a limited value---that is "finite"
a single good idea by a highly compensated programer may be extraodinarily profitable for his employer.There is a very high upside to his "value" as an employee.
A roofers value is largely controlled by his physical ability to do the work in question----and this is an ever DECREASING commodity.There is a VERY limited amount of physical work that a roofer can do---especially day after day.
Your idea is indeed " crazy speculation". The simple economics of the trade do not support your theory.Let's say I double the wage of a $17/hour roofer----that means counting the labor burden his actual cost will be $51/hour minimum. thats just to break even.Obviously we are not interested in merely breaking even.That $51/hour x 8 hours of cost must be earned by LESS than 8 hours of production time each day( remember you have to subtract production time for set up,break down,lunch,potty breaks,football bets,NASCAR discussions , occasional travel time etc.)A good roofer will have several hours each day when he produces that $51/hour---even more, but generally not for the whole day.Definitely not all day,every day. Remember---that's just the break even point on his share of the labor----that doesn't even factor in his share of the overhead that every company incurrs---trucks,insurance,advertising,warranty work etc.
BTW--- the size of the pool of applicants is not the problem. A single ad will will bring a response of 80-well over 100 applicants.Weeding through that many is burdensome enough----we certainly don't want even MORE numbers to trudge through! Plus---clearly an ad is not the way to go.
Also-----though I set the starting wage for entry level workers with no experience-----experienced guys SET THEIR OWN PAY SCALE. That is---after determining the best candidate for the available job ---the candidate sets his own wage. If it turns out that the candidate doesn't produce at a rate that justifies his pay---then he is "down the road".If he proves to be a bargain I am usually pretty eager to increase his pay.Since pay is ultimately based on ACTUAL productivity( not theoretical productivity) I am happy to be paying more.The numbers have to bear this out.
Again, I appreciate your ideas-----but it is difficult for you to propose financial solutions when you don't have the economic information available to you that those solutions must be based upon.Believe me---it's not an unwillingness to pay more on my part---I am EAGER to pay more. That pay has to be covered by production which is a very finite capability.
Yeah, I didn't really think the best roofers were 10 times fast as the slowest. :) OK, no more advice from me.
This is neither advice nor a question, just an observation. Roofing and software do have some interesting similarities when you talk about balancing quality and productivity. A guy who produces crap really, really fast isn't doing you any good. You can't always detect crap just by looking at the finished product. It can be months or years before the exact right circumstances come along to reveal the crap. And there's a good chance that the culprit no longer works for you when the crap surfaces.
SHAZLETT,
That's a good program as you described it. If they HAD to make it work (ie depression era) they would find out they COULD harden into it and do it.
Fonzie
Tim
Hope I die before I get old....Day I stop workin is the day I get old.
At 51 I'm still luggin 22 2x12 up two stories when need be.
Thing is, when you get older you hopefully get smarter.
Such as: learning to use roofing suppliers with boom trucks
learning to use any supplier with boom trucks.
Like the work itself isnt hard enough or we don't pay help a gazillion dollars an hour to helpers.....Like we need to carry 500 sheets of plywood up a ladder????
Work smart, not hard
Be smart
Namaste
andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I'd retire tomorrow if I could support the lifestyle I'd like to be accustomed to.
If I did my tools wouldn't get a rest, just a change of venue.
Scott R.
Being a remodeler and in several people's homes over the years I have seen some reach retirement and work in their house before and after retirement. A few can do it, but I think they are a true minority.
"I hope I work till I die ."
So how exactly do you want to die?
Working?
Pulling some kids out of a burning building?
In your sleep?
.
Just something I've wondered about............For most folks, no news is good news; for the press, good news is not news.
I just wish to have the health until it happens. Ive got rentals, so I never plan on full retirement. I think the quality of life would suit me if I coud stay busy with projects. I enjoy working. Some people go somewhere to work out . I could provide that for them with no charge.
Tim Mooney
Boss
MAybe he meant it literally....hope his body and mind "works" till he dies....nahhh, that aint what he meant but what the hey.
a"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming all the way to the ground like his passengers!
Old aviation joke.
My Dad's 73.....and still working just about every day.
He's retired from the railroad.......had a FT remodeling kitchen and bath company the whole time we were all growing up. Would work the RR from 7 to 3.....come home...shower/eat...then hit the jobsite around 5 or 6 and work till 9 or 10. His work was all referal and his customers knew the drill.
He retired officially years ago...but still goes and does rental rehabs for a friend of his that's in his late 70's....who owns a bar/restraunt/catering biz.....that he still runs hands on.
Dad'll start about 10 am...and work till about 3 or 4. Works 5 days a week till he gets tired. Then back at it the next. He's got no problems climbing ladder and doing all sort of stuff I think he shouldn't be doing!
Mom's just glad he isn't hanging around the house messing it up!
Hope I'm half as active as he is at that age. Kinda makes it tough for me to call in sick if I'm a little tired that morning!
He's doing a kitchen at the moment...I have to get there when the cab's come in to hang the uppers and set the bottoms generally where they go......he'll take it from there.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff,
You said about your father, "Hope I'm half as active as he is at that age. Kinda makes it tough for me to call in sick if I'm a little tired that morning"
That's exactly how I felt when I first started Framing, I was 18 and my boss was 52 and he made me realize that I could never complain about working to hard or if it was to cold or carrying a 24' 2x12 because he did all that with no problem. He's 72 to now and he's still Framing. He might not be carrying the 24' 2x12's anymore but he's still out ther.
He inspired me. He is a hard worker and enjoys what he does and I had asked him and alot of other Old Timers why they don't retire and everyone of them told me because they would Die shortlly after that. When your working hard your whole life no matter what trade your in and love what you do, It must be hard to just to come to a complete stop for some people.
My father died when I was 5, so when I was a kid I always looked at my friends fathers or grandfathers or my neighbors just maybe to find a role model or something. I was always fascinated by Framing since I was a kid and when I met my Boss and saw how he cut all these roofs, It was like I found God.
I was told he was one of the best framers around and everyone told me to listen to everything he says and I did and still do if I run into him. He's Norwegian and his bosses name was Onscow, I always heard amazing stories about him too and couldn't wait to meet him either to get words of wisdom and ask him 5000 questions ;-)
I remember the day my boss told me that the next day we were going to work with his boss Onscow, I couldn't sleep that night, call me crazy. The next morning I flew to the job and it was amazing to me at 18 to see my boss with his boss discussing rafters. Onscow couldn't speak any english but I kept asking my boss questions and he would translate to Onscow. He probably wanted to hit me in the head with a 2x10 but my boss told me that his boss said that I was a good kid and had alot of potential.
I looked at those two and said to myself back then and even now that if they can do it, I can do it.
I love talking to Old Timers ,still do. I ran into my old boss years ago and he said that I was the biggest pain in the a## jokingly showing up at his door at night with a notebook asking him to teach me how to cut rafters and all the questions but he liked it.
It's about 8:30 am sunday morning right now, my old boss lives about 2 miles from me, maybe I'll go to his house right now with a notebook and coffee. ;-)
Joe Carola
Edited 1/26/2003 8:32:39 AM ET by Framer
That's neat. The old guy I used to work with is 95 now, passed the driver's test without glasses and he's in goood shape for that age. His specialty was making work fun, and it wasn't a gimmick with him. He truly enjoyed work and had several sayings that came out at the right time with a infectuous laugh. "If they don't like it it won't take so much of it to do 'em". I visited him last week, and a guy that had the same experience just ask about him and called him from Seattle.
It sounds like some of the right guys showed up at the right time with you too.
Fonzie,
I remember one time, I think is was the winter of 1984, we were framing a house in Chatham NJ and the guy behind the house came out one day and it was about 500 below zero ;-) He started chopping would and staring at us, he was Big. As I'm looking at him, I said to myself, this guy looks old. So coffee break I walk up to him and he told me his name was JAKE and he was 92.
I was always told that I had the strongest grip but this guy almost broke my hand. I loved the guy right then and there. He came out every day and chopped would or just did something. He was happy, I would talk to him all the time. He would always start out with "Back in my Day" I used to laugh, If was a tough Son of a B###h.
I have total Respect for Old Timers and everyone should. Talking to them for me for some reason just brings out peace.
My little Italian Grandmother about 4' 6-5/16" high ;-) was 96 befor she died, and told me her mind was like she was 35. She lived by herself at the Jersey shore and if I had to do a job down there I would call her up and tell her that I was going to sleep over, she would "BaFongool cumma cumma, I makea the Macaroni".
Her house was so peaceful she had all her furniture, forks/knifes/plates...... from when she was married in 1920. We would sit down and talk and eat every crumb from our plate and the table together. She used to look at me not only as her grandson but her son probably because my father dying/her son. My whole family would bust me because in Grandma's eyes she used to call me Baby Joey, Baby Joey could do no wrong.
Every holiday I would have to sit next to her so when we would go to my aunts house there would be an empty chair next to Grandma and everybody would and say " Here's Baby Joey's Chair".
When I would sleep at her house she would come in the room and turn the covers down for me and tuck me in. I am a very restless sleeper, I toss and turn. Grandma's house I would wake up in the exact same position as when I went to sleep.
Joe Carola
An Italian family and a Norwegian Carpenter for a boss............it just doesn't get any better than that!
An interesting thing happened about 20 years ago. I was building a spiral stairway in a deck. The steps were 30 deg each and the whole stairway circled down in a 6 ft X 6 ft square. I ask myself HOW I was going to lay out the points of intersection on the square. High school trigonometry! The tangent of 30 would do it.
Then I got to thinking about my high school math teacher. She was in her high 80s. I gave her a call (she was one of those super busy senior citizens) and she invited us to her house in three weeks.
On the way I wondered about the way I had built her up to my family. Nobody could live up to that. But she did. My kids were in awe of her. She had several interesting things around the house, puzzles, etc. She had made a cake. Nothing like a good teacher. I sure use that geometry/math now.
about three years ago we did a large job that had 85 sheets of ply on an 8/12 roof with 13 intersecting roof planes in all. after establishing the angle on the first sheet i just kept telling my guys IT'S GEOMETRY IT HAS TO FIT! (they fit)
did they fall for it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
once they saw that it worked they realized it was safer to do it my way than to struggle with every piece.
Since this is an old timers thread and you are present , I thought it might be the time to tell this one;
My father employed an old carp when I was just a pup. He would show up with all the roof cuts written on paper, not to mention many more things. I asked why he would spend the unpaid time . " Im old and I use my years of training to balance my weakneses". I never saw it done again.
Tim Mooney
tim, u old f*rt.....
when i started , i worked with an old carp... every sunday he would sharpen every tool he owned: chisels , hatchets, planes, handsaws & skill saw...you could shave with any of the first three...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I remember the sharpening also. Lunch was an hour long mostly for rest. During that hour ,I observed many things sharpened, but a lot whittleing. Tooth picks were taken from Yellow Pine after eating with Case knifes. That inspireation was to get my first Barlow. I cant remember if that knife cost 1.00 or 1.50, but I got a ribbing over it. Wasnt too long before I supported a Case Tooth Pick model. Those were the days of the steel blade that seemed easy to get an edge. Then they showed me the Xs on the blade . Of course theirs had one more x than mine did. So again I had less knife! They were cruel . I remember the "cut man" would sharpen his saw blade against a wood jamb. An outside jamb facing the sun was preferred. Easier on old eyes I later found out. A piece of plywood scrap with a duplex nail through the ply and blade served as the temporary clamp. Im sure you are not getting new information here. LOL.
Tim Mooney
ok, truth now , tim... i'd rather play golf than sharpen my tools...but those were the daysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"i'd rather play golf than sharpen my tools"
Golf never seemed to serve a purpose with me . I mean men hitting little balls around. So I chose something with more sense;
I spend half the night looking for hounds that are chasing coons . I dont even kill the coons. I get ate up with ticks, smell like a dog , but its so sensible ! LOL!
Tim Mooney
my father in law always kept coon hounds... blue tick, mostly..
him and his buddy took a lot of coons...... but it was following the dogs 'til dawn that he really likedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My grandpa down in "little Egypt" (southern Ill) was out coon hunting on a moonless cloudy night and got turned around lost. So he just sat down and waited until 5:00. That's when the whistle at Carmack would blow. Then he knew the way home.
Where at Fonzie?
My father grew up in Cairo, and my Grandma still has 40 acres in Olive Branch. I worked down there demoing and rebuilding the porch that had 4 layers of asphalt shingles over some shakes, which were on a roof built over another roof that had standing seam on it. Great old house. I love driving around the Shawnee looking at the old sites. You anywhere around there?
JonJon Blakemore
My grandpa lived kinda between Vienna and Metropolis. His address was Belnap for lack of one. I'm up in west central Illinois in an area called "forgottonia". Grandpa was a "bottomite". He farmed, trapped, hunted, kept bees, in the "bottoms".