? on a owner /GC’s site responsibilities
I went to my neighbors newly framed house and he wants the slab in the basement poured and the walls framed. It’s cold. There was a torpedo going but there were some holes in the sheathing so he wants to seal it up. the carpenter had clear plastic over some of the holes for light I guess. I mentioned that there would be no light for the workers. He said they would have lights. I can’t see carpenters having lighting for a large basement. Or the concrete guys that do the slab.
Isn’t lighting large areas the GC’s responsibility? He’s taken on the mantle of GC but has no tools at all. So is every sub that comes in supposed to bring their own?
It seems like it just turns into every man for himself when there isn’t a GC with these things over the job.
That’s the attitude I picked up on when I mentioned the lights.
Another question. He’s having a stained concrete finish put on the slab and wants to cover it with cardboard to protect it. Won’t framing be a pain with cardboard on the slab? I told him there was probably going to be some damage and it just adds to the character.
Replies
I don't have a good impression of him from what you say.
So other subs probably get a poor impression of him on the job
So the good ones will go work elsewhere so they don't have to fight and scratch for space and light and heat. They will go work for good GCs instead of crappy ones.
So he will be left with the cheaper, poorer quality workers.
And the product will show.
He is only hurting himself with lousy management. A man cannot do good work in lousy conditions. No light? I can't see my tape measure. Wrong cut? Nail it anyways, I'm too cold to cut it again. It's so dark in here he won't be able to see it anyways.
He'll want to get his PT bottom plates down before he does the cardboard thing.
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How cold is "It's cold."??? Is the slab substrate/gravel frozen?
My greatest concern is concrete does not perform properly when placed on frozen ground in freezing weather.
Is the "framed house" in the dry? Or is only the floor decking in place?
Is there a real GC but he is mostly absent? Or is the owner really the hiring each trade individually and coordinating the construction.
Cardboard will get wet and stain the concrete.
........Iron Helix
Thats not uncommon here, pouring a slab after the frame is built.
Concrete subs bring their own lights for the setup and pour.
They nail up long lines of lights across the basement.
Woods favorite carpenter
As GC, I provide heat, power and light. Other wise it creates too much confusion and competition and aggravation between the various trades. One guy sets up his lights, then finishes and leaves the job when the next guy is only two hours from being finished, he has to stop work and get lights all set up, then he leaves and takes his lights with him and the next sub shows up. He has seen the job with lights the day before so he didn't bring any. Now he has to go home and get his lights....
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Things are much different here than most places I hear about here.
GC's are never around.
I'd love to work on a job with some supervision. Or at least someone who signed the contract so I know exactly what needs to happen.
Our flatwork sub doesn't mind pouring after the frame is up, actually prefers it.
Some additions he cuts a hole in the subfloor to get concrete in, I have to patch them up.
I've hauled a generator around for 3 years in the back of my truck because GC's can't get power on a job. Woods favorite carpenter
What in the world do those GCs DO for their money?
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Collect draws from the bank and write checks, thats it.
They sell the job and then they don't see it until it's done.
I get a little frustrated with it, and have to remind myself that it's not that way everywhere. Matt pointed that out to me a few times.
I charge more for the lack of involvement. They don't care. Woods favorite carpenter
Matt & all:
In other threads we have discussed similar, most recently, who provides heat. And at least with heat, it's regional. I can't imagine not having power on site though. OK, sometimes power is not yet installed when the concrete guys first start, since often the job starts the day the permit is issued or maybe even a few days before and the electrical T-pole has to be permitted, inspected, and power co called and then takes a day or 2 to come out. Other than that when I get a permit job 1 is to get a porta john, water, and power on site. My electricians supply the loan of a T-poles for free so the only actual expense involved with power is to pay for the power usage itself. They do gripe me with their minimum service charges though...
As far as lights, those temp light strings can be had rather cheaply at the big box stores.
Matt: I almost wonder if you are allowing people to take advantage of your good nature. "OH don't worry about any of that. Matt will figure out something." Hope you are making them pay for what you provide.
Thats the nature of the business here Matt. Unfortunately. At first I didn't want to do it and was given the option either get one or we'll find someone else.
If I didn't provide a generator I would have never framed a single house here. Since I have I have been privelaged enough to build close to 40 as a "job manager".
When mine broke down I loaned one from a local union shop my uncle retired from for a case of suds to the shop foreman.
It would be nice to have power, really, really nice. They won't even set a temporary pole until the first floor walls are up here. That way they can set the meter in as well. Don't make alot of sense after that has happened.
In winter it's a common practice to frame a house or addition without any flatwork. After we are done they call the flatwork guys in. They have a generator and lights to do their job. It's much easier for them to bring lights than to pour concrete in 0 degree weather.
No portojohns either, they waited until the rest of the subs were there to worry about that.
Woods favorite carpenter
Here there is actually either a code or law - I forget which - saying that a porta-john must be provided, and I've heard of building inspectors refusing to inspect unless it is in place. Not sure of the details, never happened to me, but that is what I've been told. To me though, that particular item is just common courtesy.
When I was doing an apartment job a few years ago the PM visited the site. I told him that this site was too big (about 15 acres) for just the 1 portajohn that was pushed way over in the corner in the ankle deep mud a good 150 yards from where we were standing. He said, you all don't need that, besides, they cost $60 a month. ($6mil project). I said, look - people are shi++n in the buildings. He said it was my responsibility to tell them not to do that. About that time he got a (cell phone) call - we were standing in the middle of the then mud parking lot. While he was talking on the phone, I turned my back to him, whipped it out and took a long and gratifying leak right there in the mud. After he got off the phone he said in kinda a sheepish voice "Maybe you better order another portajohn." :-)
portajohn requirement must be local law. not in ny. framing conditions up here are like Matt describes. no such thing as temp. power on any job sites. you provide generator. any other trades show up you share. a few bears help get everyone to coperate better.
>code or law - I forget which - saying that a porta-john must be provided,<
Here it's a county ordnance as well as having a 50' gravel drive. If the inspector can't park on decent gravel or take a leak in private he's (occasionally she) not inspecting anything.
As to one of the OP questions if I don't bring my own lighting I'm pretty much working in the dark. Painters aren't happy when I leave since I take my lights with me, they enjoy the fact that I don't trim in the dark. But I don't work new consrtruction that much anymore so it's not a factor as much as it used to be.
Some times BT seems to go which ever way the wind blows... :-)
In one thread I'm told that I have to provide heat for the workers and then in this one people don't even get power...
Re the 50' drive, most lots around here aren't even that big... another local requirement is that if there is no temp (or perm) steps up into the house inspector goes to next job only after leaving a rejection notice. The one that really gets me is that if there is an attic with no pull-down or walk-up access I have to have a ladder there for them - to me, that's pushing it. How many "trades" have their tools supplied for them? BTW - I will only lend an inspector my pen if the inspection passes :-)
Sometimes the actions taken in response to poor management may seem high-handed, even outrageous ... job walk-outs, refusals to inspect, etc ... but we need to keep in mind that these bad behaviors are in response to poor management. Let's take that absent temporary stair as an example. Gee, Mr High N Mighty inspector just rejected the job ... well, guess what? The pennies saved by not having ready access is more than canceled by the dollars lost through lower productivity and increased accidents. Pretty short-sighted, if you ask me .... even if other trades, other people dare benefit from something you did in your own self interest! Ditto for most of the other things mentioned before this post. If the GC isn't willing, or able, to have his guys do things like make those temporary stairs ... he needs to make it clear who will be responsible, when, .... and also make clear that the sub will be paid for this work. Such things ought not be "outside the bid." Let's take temporary power as another example. I've been involved, as the EC, with a certain job for nearly a year now. As this job nears completion, I still have not had the PoCo "heat the place up." Not a problem, though ... because, from the very beginning, I set a temporary power pole, from which everyone can run their cords. We arranged ahead of time for the placement of this pole, billing for the power, etc. The result has been power on site from nearly day one. Ladder for the inspector? It's amazing how many "professionals" think they're being clever by making the inspectors' job more difficult. Let me give these guys a heads up: I guarantee that they have many more inspection / permit problems than I do! I've been on jobs where inspectors worked relays, minutely examining every detail of the job ... yet (magically) gave my work hardly a glance.
Why the difference? Because, on those jobs, the GC was picking fights with City Hall ... while I have a long-established reputation for being a 'straight shooter.'
Do you supply a ladder for your self to use? Do you supply a ladder for other paid professionals who work on the site?
for the carpenter, the ladder is a tool.
From the inspector's POV, it is "access"
The builder needs to provide clear and unobstructed access to the work
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Oddly enough, at most jobs I'm on, we all are willing to share ladders. So, for example, only once a day is a ladder set for attic entry ....
But that's not the point I was making. Inspectors are not idiots. They can generally figure it out that someone is deliberately trying to obstruct them in the performance of their work.
So, in this example ... if ladders suddenly disappeared on the theory that the inspector would not be willing to make the effort to do a proper inspection, but just sign it off .... think again. The inspector is liable to call the fire dept for a ladder, call all his buddies from every jurisdiction, and they will happily shut things down as they spend the next few days meticulously 'inspecting' every screw.
I call that sort of 'cleverness' .... 'stepping on your own @@@@.'
I sent you an E-mail.
I don't know where your getting this sheet about impeding the inspector from doing his job... The only thing I have a problem with is supplying inspectors with tools (ladders). I don't supply tools for any other "subs" on site.
Other than that, OK - let's take electrical for example - since it sounds like that is what you do.
Electricians come and do the rough-in. They are generally the last rough-in. Then the house sits idle until the inspector shows up since that has to be signed off before the construction sequence can proceed. In the mean time maybe a little framing punch or something like that is going on or maybe the siding guy is working. Elect inspector may show up the next day or the next one after that. Sometimes ever 3 days. No way to know. They don't take "scheduling" phone calls around here - in any of the 5 or 6 jurisdictions I've built. So, I have to set a ladder out each morning for him just incase he wants it to go up in the attic. Electrical inspector for my area I have a good rapport with. Everything goes smoothly. He has told me that he doesn't want anyone in the house when he is inspecting though... WTF?
In the city I'm working in right now I'm paying around $3k for permits. That includes plans reviews, permit paperwork, inspections, etc. I know that isn't a lot compared to some areas, but it isn't chump change either... I think the electrical portion is around $600. I'd say the electrical inspector is probably on site 30 minutes total for each house - start to finish of the house - 3 visits - T-pole, rough, & trim. So, I'm paying well for the inspections, etc. Now, can you tell me why again I should have to get out a ladder each day for this one "sub"? Maybe I should require my electrical subcontractor to supply the ladder - after all, it's his work that is being inspected and it's his responsibility that the inspection passes... I don't have any problem with inspectors and I get along good with my regular ones. But I do have a problem with anyone who has the all must ki$$ my a$$ attitude...
Still haven't figured out why our local inspectors drive pick-up trucks though...
I was "getting this sheet" from an earlier post .... that's what I was responding to ... where someone opined that his pen was available to the inspector only for approvals, etc. That post mentioned not letting the inspector use his ladder to access the attic, etc. If I accidentally annoyed you, for that I apologize .... no personal attack was intended.
OK - no prob. The thing about a pen was a joke. Here is the smiley face I shoulda added after it :-)
Like I said - I make it a point to establish a good rapport with inspectors. It's the smart thing to do.
Interesting regional differences. Here in my city the inspectors carry their own ladders for attic access. This is a direct result of one of them being injured climbing a faulty ladder put up by a contractor. Good (Safe)access to the building is required or no inspection. Also the result of an inspector falling off a half azz ramp and ending up hospitalized. No roof inspections with out tieoffs, safety railings etc. GC supplies temp power, water and chem cans. Lights are up to the sub in residential , GC in commercial. Heat is variable in residential, some GC supply temp heat , some don't. Commercial the GC supplies. Now in the county here things are a bit different, they will use your ladder, they may or may not climb a bad access. They will on occasion inspect the roof without all OSHA requirements in place. We all get to play by the rules enforced in our own areas.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I find this thread to be a bit odd.
Perhaps, because I cut my construction teeth in the industrial/millwright end, both as an hourly and salaried employee, and since we're not a third world country, I can't imagine a jobsite without supplied (as necessary), power, basic lighting and general access.
Now, admittedly, much of the work I was involved in involved union trades so there were some contractual requirements for ammenities. In addition, the State of Oregon Labor board has some working condition requirements that, to me, are no-brainers.
I've been a residential and commercial G/C for about 15 years and I've never even questioned my responsibility to provide a workplace that has sanitary facilities, temporary power, some basic lighting, rebar covers, ladders, scaffolding, etc.
To do less is to invite deserved employee discontent, invite injury, lower productivity and the quality of worksmanship.
In my building career, I've had one customer from hell who insisted on doing his own wiring. After the first week, when I had myself and 4 guys working off one duplex GFCI receptical in his pump house, and after frequent breaker kicks, I brought one of my two generators to the job site. While I have a reasonably new 6.5 kw Honda, the one I brought was a 1956 vintage 10kw powered by an unmuffled 4 cyl Wisconsin engine that would make a U-2 concert sound like an acoustic string trio in comparison.
I parked it beside the trailer the HO and his wife were living in and let it roar.
He worked all night and we had proper power the next day.
While various sub trades may bring their own lighting, heat, etc., in my view part of a G/C's responsibility is to provide an environment for people to do their best.
Inspector's also have a reasonable expectation of safe access.
>> I've been a residential and commercial G/C for about 15 years and I've never even questioned my responsibility to provide a workplace that has sanitary facilities, temporary power, some basic lighting, rebar covers, ladders, scaffolding, etc. <<
You supply ladders and scaffolding for your subs? WOW! I guess that answers that question...
I was trying to be brief, but there are occasions when subs have used my ladders or scaffolding if it's a one-time thing or some piddly little job, although subs generally supply their own equipment.
My point was that the individual with responsibility for the jobsite (the G/C) has the burden of providing a safe worksite with some basic ammenities.
The absence of temporary power on a large construction site, along with no portable toilet is, IMO, pretty pathetic.
I agree with all of that...
Theres no excuse for the porta potty but there are reasons for the power.When things were better, we always made money by supplying the generator. In our contracts we'd include several options: power ($50 per day, $350 max), backfill ($250 to start without it), trusses on site ($250 to start without it), materials near house ($#### if delivered more than 50' from basement), etc.The key to working for these kinds of GCs is to bill for he service rendered. I used to use my employees generator and pay him the $250. He loved it. He got his generator paid for several times over. I dont remember the actual dollar amounts and I'd could dredge up a copy of the term sheet but I think the idea is clear enough. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I got to one jobsite once and it was horribly not ready according to our standards and we were supposed to start later that day. I called the builder and told him we couldn't start. In a flash he was out to meet me onsite to see what the problem was. After discussing it for a few minutes, he exasparately asked me "Okay...this is about money...how much more do you want to start this job?" I answered. "I'm not sure, I think I need a couple thousand dollars: I'll call your grading contractor and get him out here to finish the rough grading. When he's done, I'll pay him and then start". He said he'd have it graded by tomorrow. It was. Sometimes, you just have to stand your ground, other times, you gots to roll with the punches. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
There are negotiable things like power - or for me, water. We have sites on wells and water getting shut off in winter. I notify a mason or SR sub ahead of time and ask, you want me to haul water, or do you want to do it?They get paid for what they need to do.
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as GC, i'm responsible for all the job conditions....
i always supply power (grid or generator ), grading , parking, material delivery, porta-johns, dumpsters...
i make sure the permits are not going to hold us up...
i court the Inspectors and the municipal utilities...... i do everything i can think of to keep the job flowing
why would anyone operate differently ?
is this a business or what ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am heartened by the GC's who have posted here, asserting that much of this is "common sense." Too bad today's GC wasn't among them. This remodel (of a gas station into a mini-mart) has festered along for two months now. Mind you, this is the conversion of an existing building for a simpler use.
2 mos. ago, the toilet was not operable. It seems it has a leak. The place certainly has water. Now ... it would seem to me that "job 1" would be a functioning toilet. Nope. So, when nature called today, I lost 20 minutes of productive time going off-site for one. Heat is absent, simply because the furnace installed by the GC doesn't work. We ran out of kerosene for the space heater two weeks ago. The small propane "jet engine" does help - but sure is noisy. There's plenty of electric available - I made sure of that - and I provided one electric heater. The GC loves it ... but has not deigned to furnish more. In one week, he spends more on propane than several such electric heaters would cost ... and the customer is paying the electric bill! There is one barrel, and two flat bed trailers, provided for trash. All are full. We're running out of cardboard boxes for additional 'trash storage.' The GC, it seems, saves the dump run for the end of the job.
BTW ... the trailers are parked right in front of the door. Really helps ensure easy access. Scheduling? When he removes the faulty furnace he provided, he'll have to take apart the ceiling grid he put up 'out of sequence.'
I have pretty much the same feelings and I never worked union in my life.
It has a lot to do with what somebody is willing to tolerate - how far they'll let the steam roller roll over them.Like I said, I left a place where I knew the safety standards..didn't exist. And later a guy died working there.
It wasn't me because I would not tolerate it.
The company owner told people I had a bad attitudeLOLI'm alive
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"I have a problem with is supplying inspectors with tools (ladders). I don't supply tools for any other "subs" on site."You do supply access tho, right? The ladder is simply access
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I know it's an access issue. My point is that I'm their customer - not the other way around.
I don't mind helping the subs on my site - and routinely do.
Heat is different. Even the bad GCs in Mi supply heat. It's a necessary evil to dry out the frame and dry the mud. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The requirement for sanitary facilities is definately not local here.
Or anywhere else in the USA
OSHA requires sanitary facilities.
Being the CFR, they are ambigous on how it is attained, and the enforcement officers are not interested in forcing every landscaping company in the country into hauling a porta-potty. But you can be assured that in a country where coffee breaks are mandated by law, then the law is going to make an effort to ensure that sh#ters are on the job site.
Edited 1/22/2008 8:59 pm ET by McMark
Edited 1/22/2008 9:49 pm ET by McMark
Ever see OSHA on a 1 house residential project?
every time a stoner falls off the roof and lands on his head...
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Ever see OSHA on a 1 house residential project?
I know they don't show up, but my point is that it is the law of the land. Not city, state, or county.
Contractors should supply a can
I wasn't taking issue wether a GC should supply a can; I think they should.
Can county enforce OSHA regs?
OSHA doesn't have very many Inspectors (1100 nationwide) and they're going after bigger fish than small res GCs so there won't be any push for them to get a porta potty from them. Odds are you won't see (I want to say never, but never say never) an OSHA insp on a res site for an enforcement visit. The locals wanted to stop workers relieving themselves in full view of the neighbors and found a way to enforce the c rapper and it works good. No c rapper = no inspections.
"Can county enforce OSHA regs?"town permiting agency here requires a portapotty on site new builds
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Is it a town reg or are they enforcing OSHA reg? (I not sure if county can enforce OSHA regs, that's why I ask). Here it's a building dept requirement. I won't say regulation since there's no established fine for failure to comply; there is an issue of no progress = no pay for the builder which takes on the financial aspect of it (and the motivation to comply).
Ever have a stoner fall off your projects or other incident mandating an OSHA visit?
When I worked for a company with (at one time) 70,000+ employees OSHA was still scarce (not non-existent) and after a year or two of regular visits (OSHA didn't seem to be a factor until the early 90s there) they allowed the Co to monitor themselves with a safety rep for each department and it seemed the OSHA on-site visits declined. There was a significant improvement in safety from my POV.
Town reg on the potties.I am aware of three times this happens. One a roofing company in CO where I quit because they had bad safety practices. But the guy who dies a year later WAS a stoner who should not have been on roofs.One was here on this island, and a couple years ago same thing on another nearby island, more or less they walk right off the staging plank. I can't certify that they were stoned, but that is the storey you here. anytime there is a death or serious injury, OSHA shows up to levy fines after the fact.State inspectors are more common on safety enforcement.
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Edited 1/23/2008 7:43 am ET by Piffin
Are there federally employed OSHA inspectors? I don't know. I thought the OSHA enforcement program was run at the state level. I know my state has their own set of OSHA rules, and I know at least a few others have their own set of rules too. I think the template for the books is supplied for fed, but states enforce as they see fit. For example I think someone here said they had to be tied off to climb a ladder - not required here in NC. The OSHA enforcement guys I have dealt with here were employed my the NC Dept of Labor. It even says NCDOL on the book.
Maybe federal OSHA guys only mess with the big jobs - as you said.... like maybe hi-rise construction...??
go to http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/osha-faq.html#Enforcement and scroll down to Enforcement. Seems they have as much management as they do inspectors.
Does NC have their own set of safety regs that they enforce or are they enforcing the OSHA regs (from the Fed level)? That's the question i have; can locals enforce the fed regs?
They do have some rules that don't seem logical like fall protection to get up on a ladder. What're you going to tie it to? The ladder? Rope secured to the roof? Who's going to set the rope initially and how?
That's the question OSHA have; can locals enforce the fed regs?
Don't know - what I do know is that NC has it's own OSHA program/books/etc. Take a look at this page to see a list of NC publications. About 1/3 of the way down is the book I have (costs $22). I've also been to the state OSHA office :-(
My impression is that OSHA is a federal program of guidelines, etc, and then states do with what they see fit. I don't know how federal inspectors fit into the picture.
Re the ladder thing, I think all fall protection rules have a clause that allows set-up time.
If a federal OSHA inspector came on my job site I'd probably start slapping myself in the face - hoping I'd wake up from a bad dream... :-)
>Re the ladder thing, I think all fall protection rules have a clause that allows set-up time.<
I remember that now that you wrote it. Something about risk exposure. In the past life I fell into that category much of the time since I was In & Out of the area to perform the necesary inspections but there were lot's of variables that affectd it as well.
1) Work site safety can be enforced by OSHA, in a state where there is no state agency (for example Wyoming), or it is enforced on the state level if it is a "captured" state. Washington, California, and most other states have their own regulatory agency. These states use OSHA as a basis, and their laws are then as or more stringent as the Federal laws
2) Counties don't enforce OSHA, but the smart ones would make Porta-potties required on their permits. Since it is required by OSHA, is common sensible, and prevent s##t all over the place, a county could write this into their permit conditions very easily.
3) Having a beef about supplying ladders for your BI? Because they are your sub? If your electrician becomes recalcitrant, you can fire him. Where are you going to get another Building Department? They are also enforcing county law, so they really aren't your sub either.
>3) Having a beef about supplying ladders for your BI?<
Where did I say that?
And I don't have issues with OSHA. But don't expect them to show up on a res site to enforce a porta potty even though it's the (as you say it) the law of the land.
Who told you that?
CFR 1926.51 (c) (1)
Seems a following para negates the necessity of 1926.51 (c) (1) [edit to add: when applying it to a res constr site]
Interpretation leaves a lot to be figured when you ask what is:readily available and nearby
1926.51(c)(4)
The requirements of this paragraph (c) for sanitation facilities shall not apply to mobile crews having transportation readily available to nearby toilet facilities.from: http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10624
__________Local county BI requirements are more stringent than the OSHA reg you quote since they have no exceptions such as the CFR quoted.
Edited 1/24/2008 9:53 pm ET by john7g
Not that I give a sh#t, but what is your point? Are you arguing that OSHA and common sense do not require porta-potties on construction sites? Or are you arguing for the sake of arguing? I think that it is clear that a mobile work crew is just that, mobile. Stationary construction sites, and their crews are not mobile.
Or are you arguing that your county is full of sh#t? Are porta-potties (or access to sanitary facilities) required on all building permits in your area? On all permits?
I actually don't really care anymore
Edited 1/24/2008 10:01 pm ET by McMark
Point? The OSHA reg keeps popping up in the discussion.
If you read any of my posts re: this subject I never objected to having a porta potty, but that it was pushed by the local efforts which are more effective than the fed reg.
cheers
.
You're right, I agree, I am sure that local requirements for porta-potties is more locally driven, than in response to a Federal mandate.
And I realize that you were always a proponent of sani-cans. I was merely pointing out that the Feds do require them. Another reason for a GC to supply one on the job.
And my point about BI's and ladders was not pointed at you, but more at the readers at large, especially those who begrudge supplying ladders and access to inspectors. I think their adversarial ways are silly.
Group hug now?
See, I do give a sh#t
Matt, in my contract I state that the price does not include temporary power or sanitation (amongst other things) and that if they are not provided, then I will provide them and bill accordingly for them. I've got a 6500W generator in the trailer... it's been paid for about 5 times over by now as well as every drop of gas that runs through it. I charge $15/day right now (gas is high) for use of my generator.
Same goes with a porta-john. On this first day if one isn't on site, I'll inquire about it. Day 2 or 3 and still a no-go? I'll make a joke about my guys taking a smash in the basement. Still no show? I order one and bill for it... with a healthy mark-up.
I used to pull my hair out about that kind of stuff. Now I just put it in the contract and forget about it. Towards the end of a job, we'd be finishing up and there would be 4 different subs plugged a 15amp outlet on a power pole. Guys would show up with their crappy little orange 16ga extension cords, run out 300' feet of it, and plug in a holehawg and start popping breakers while I'm trying to get the job finished. Now I'll just fire up the generator and add it to the bill.
Lighting? I don't need it much. But it's cheap enough that I just own a bunch of work lights for the rare occasion that I need 'em. Not that big a deal to me. But you can bet... if it was... I'd find a way to charge for it.
This year I started billing for snow removal from storms over 4". That's going over like a fart in a spacesuit. I don't care. I shovel my own house for free and that's it. Don't like it? Dig it out yourself and call me when you're ready.
I'm getting to the point where I don't give a F anymore. It's taken a few years, but now I've built a really good name for myself. I know I put together a first class frame. I know I run a framing crew that is professional in every way possible, from equipment, to appearance, to quality of work. I demand the same from those I work for. I refuse to work like a pig (don't let the screen name fool ya!) If my voice doesn't get their attention... my bill sure as sh2t will.
BTW... even in the summer it's common practice here to pour basement and garage slabs after the house is dried in. I don't think it's that uncommon at all either.View Image
I didn't charge for my generator at first. Then after realizing it was saoking up $10 a day in gas I added a small fee to the bill.
Not telling them why my invoice was a little bit higher than my estimate, no one asked so I never told. Easy enough.
The out house on site never really bothered me, on jobs where there was one my guys were dropping 3-4 dueces a day. Started aggravating me to the point where I hit it with a 2x4 and a baseball swing just to see them actually move away from the stupid thing.
Snow removal is something I have thought about. We have been getting nailed here and like you I see money flying out the window. 2-3 hours some days, some days 4-5 hours cleaning snow before we can work.
Try out the Skil yet? Woods favorite carpenter
Yep. I'm sick of picking up the slack. I'll still pick it up..... but I bill for it now. I don't worry about the porta-john... I've got a really good crew and don't really have to babysit them with stuff like that. Good workers.
Haven't tried the Skil yet. Just no call for it yet. To be honest... I haven't even had time to open up the box yet. Had the flu last week but also had to start a new frame. Came home and fell asleep promptly every night. Probably set it up this weekend if I get a minute.View Image
Glad to hear you got a worthy crew now. Not an easy thing to find anymore.
You'll like the saw, if you don't like the hook I rigged up it can be taken off by removing the two handle screws, taking the hook out, and putting the screws back in.
Woods favorite carpenter
Good for youbut you need to charge more for the generator
fifteen won't even cover gas in mine for a day
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Yes, I hear you... but you gotta play the game. Charge too much and you get nothing. Charge enough to squeek by and at least you actually see the money. I rock the boat... but I don't tip it over. View Image
Matt
Things here in connecticut are similiar to what you describe if you are working in a production environment:
Framer provides for generator and gas in his contract
Framer provides his own gun nails
Frame leaves home broom swept
Temporary stairs
GC provides:
Building site with only walk in access-ruts 12" deep- no driveway until week before CO
Outhouse next to his trailer
Temporary power up until closing date
Job security- only if you are cheaper and frame faster than the next guy
On site supervision- from a paved road and only by phone
Foundation backfilled with material you need pontoons to walk on or just shy 4' of the top of the foundation, and nothing in garages
Truss delivery on paved road- to muddy to back in
Plans that don't match the foundation
Material shortage- super forgets to order something that you need right away- go get it yourself- he has orders not to leave job
Contract that has great payment terms that the GC always forgets.
To many framers chasing to few jobs from - in a GC market
There are some great GC around- but even they slowed down.
Greg In Connecticut
I don't provide gun nails, the GC's thought they were to expensive. I marked them up and they whined. So they buy, I call the lumber yard and order what I need off their account. I don't like giving anymore than I have to hoping to get paid back in the end.
Temporary stairs? why even bother? Why not build the real thing and save some time?
Trusses are next to the road, sometimes over 200' away from the building. looks like someone kicked them off the truck at 60 mph.
Foundations never get backfilled, at least not until we are finished framing. That always makes a job fun.
>>Job security- only if you are cheaper and frame faster than the next guy<< The GC's I build home for tried that, not a pretty sight. One example: the new framer got hired for half my final job cost. I told the GC it was a bad idea, and it was. They got half the walls up in 3 months. 4" of snow and ice ruined the subfloor from being exposed so long.
4,000 sq ft of sub floor had to torn out and redone, then I had to go and set trusses on his out of square frame. They tried setting the hip sets, ending up cutting them to fit and then found out the cut trusses were supposed to go on the other end of the house. That frame cost him dearly and he never cheaped out on me again.
A few of them were framers in the early parts of their careers and thank god for that, they know what things should look like.
Woods favorite carpenter
What about the floor protection.
If someone was doing a stamped or stained CC slab IMO it would be MY responsibility to protect it if it had to go in before framing was completed.
And it wouldn't be cardboard, at a min. Hardboard/masonite and more then likely 1/2" OSB or ply.
I have close to a thousand dollars worth of masonite, dropclothes, etc.next question?
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Thanks for the replies. I'm not going to say anything about lights to him. Maybe the subs just figure out what it takes and do it. That works for some people.
I don't want to be hard on him. He thinks he's doing the right thing and building a house is a good thing. Right!
I e-mailed him the article from JLC about fixing framing before drywall goes up.
The roof trusses didn't have "heels" so they sit right on the plate. I talked to him about rafter chutes and maybe spraying foam under the rafter chutes. We were concerned about the foam colapsing the chutes.
I e-mailed him a link to this site. He's been reading a lot about building products and I mentioned that he could bypass some of the research by coming here. I mentioned this forum and becoming an online subscriber. So he might be here. I went to him Sunday and asked what I could do to help. But I'm not sure what I can do. He needs to figure this out and he likes figuring it out. Good for him!
It sounds like you're being a good big brother popawheelie. Keep it up.Like Matt, I worked for three decades in frozen basement land and the conditions that your report are typical for some GC's and homeowners while others are on top of everything.Keep in mind, that the framing contractors are selling a service. When they encounter a homeowner GC, they know that he does not have the experience and they bid things accordingly. In those situations, we would ascertain the conditions, then bid the job with full knowledge. You might see those conditions as being less than stellar, but the framers might just be happy to get out of the winter for a couple of days. Whereas you see the need for lights to be a major impediment, the framers are used to looking at piles of trusses taller than their heads and needed to be hoisted 30' into the air. When kept in perspective, you are really talking small potatoes. I personally have always carried trouble lights for one man emergency jobs in dark spots. If we encounter a basement that is closed up and too dark for our crew to work it, and the GC has not supplied lights, we have an instant solution: we uncover a couple windows that were blocked up. You'd be amazed at how much light floods into a basement through two openings. The human eye adapts after a couple minutes and when you walk down from the light, you think it's dark. When were down there working, it seems to be lit up like Vegas to us. Covering the floor is critical and all the trades should be warned about getting glue or oil on the floor and : no writing on it! They need to be very careful about pencil marks and snapping lines, etc. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
figuring it out...I wonder who will be making his tuition payments
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Some folks think there's nothing to being a GC, that cutting the GC out of the job is an easy way to save the big bucks.
As I see it, the GC is responsible for finding the subs, scheduling, and providing the 'utilities' for a job. These 'utilities' include temporary power, lighting, site security, trash removal, a toilet, and minimal heating. He is also responsible for overall site safety and protecting the work as the job progresses.
Now, I will be the first to concede that many GC's fall short on this score ... but that's not the point of this thread.
The GC, as I mentioned, (or, sometimes the EC), is responsible for MINIMAL lighting. Specific task lighting, such as the far greater levels desired by the rocker and the painter, are the responsibilities of the trades.
When a customer wants to DIY the GC part of the job ... contractors are foolish if they expect the job to progress like any other.
When I price a job, one of the major considerations is the customer. Good customers get good prices. Now, what is a good customer?
To me, a 'good' customer is one who provides a regular stream of work, pays his bills, and has his act together. Very few meet these basic requirements.
A homeowner is not likely to ever send me more work. Therefore, he get a higher price from me than what I would give a proven GC.
A homeowners' ability to schedule, and support, a job is an open question. Therefore, a higher price.
The homeowners' willingness to pay on completion is unknown; again, a higher price.
I agree with you. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I think that one of your top jobs as a leader is to train people to respect others and try to bring out of them. It's a two way street. So when you don't go through established networks you are putting the job ahead of people and everyone knows it. You end up looking out for number one.
In a way we are all leaders.