This one will not be DIY. I’ve got an assortment of plumbing issues of varying severity in the house, and am getting quotes from two companies — Repipe Specialists, Inc., and a highly rated local plumber.
We have high water pressure (80psi), and galvanized pipes everywhere except to the back bathroom. The back bathroom was installed a couple of owners ago, is plumbed in copper, and is not to code. The water heater is 30 gal and is at the end of its expected life (made in 1991, I believe).
Issues:
– Main shower, though with what seems in isolation to be adequate hot water flow, can’t control the temperature — I have to turn the hot on all the way, and just crack the cold slightly in order to get the temperature I like. The cold water has much greater flow rate than the hot. Diverter valve sticks. Hot water knob sometimes sticks a little, has a broken knob. I have an old-fashioned 3-handle, nonpressure-balanced valve set with knobs that look like “X”s.
– Not enough hot water flow in the laundry room, and slight rusty tinge if left unused for a long time.
– Not enough hot water capacity – I take 1/2-hour long, hot, showers. Kalim can’t take a shower after me.
– Only a trickle of hot water in the back bathroom (lav and shower both) and not much cold water, either.
– Back bathroom is not vented properly (through the back wall, doesn’t extend up to the roof).
– Plastic waste lines in back bathroom suspended with metal straps.
Options:
– Copper repipe estimated by Repipe Specialists at about $5600 including patching the stucco. They can also replace the water heater wth a 40 gal unit for the cost of the heater (don’t know how much they mark up) + $100 installation, and their quote includes replacing the valves to the fixtures in the back bathroom (but not replacing the copper pipes) and replacing the main from the street and installing a pressure regulator. Because of the location of the water main entry to the house, they will either need to break up the concrete next to the house there, or move the entrance to the corner of the house some 12-14 feet away. The quote assumes the latter.
Because I want to keep the three knobs in my shower, and their shower/tub valve option is one of those single handle deals (with a separate control for flow), they would not be able to repipe to the shower head, since code requires them to install a pressure-balancing valve. If they have to redo the water heater strapping (it’s passed inspection before but isn’t really right), there will be an extra charge.
– Local plumber hasn’t sent his price quote yet, but said replacing the water heater with a 50 gal “shorty”, set on a pedestal (we get some water in the basement with heavy rains, it comes in through the bulkhead door and is related to grading issues yet to be addressed), and with the strapping done correctly, would be in the vicinity of $1000.
He says Price-Pfister makes a three-handle pressure-balanced valve with knobs of the style that I have now, so that would not be a problem. He said without knowing the price quoted by Repipe Specialists that he will not be able to compete with them on price for a repipe, nor on the rapidity with which that job would get completed — Repipe Specialists can get it all done in 1 to 1 1/2 days, whereas the plumber would take 3-4 days (restoring water service at the end of each day). He says Repipe Specialists will come in with a crew of 7-8 people.
He did say that Repipe Specialists doesn’t use plumbers, just guys trained in repiping, and that that is part of how they can keep their prices so low. The local plumber will be able to take care of the bathroom code issues, extending the vent up through the roof (I have a roofer that I will be hiring to do roof maintenance including sealing existing penetrations, I’ve let him know there’s going to be one more), hanging the waste line correctly (estimates about 30 minutes for that), and replacing the valves in the back bathroom (again, leaving the existing copper pipes alone). He recommends I get a handyman to replace the shower enclosure in the back bathroom, which is not installed properly, leaks, and is generally disgusting.
Both are quoting “L” type copper for the repipe, both are quoting 1″ for the main (the plumber said since the pressure is good, replacing the main is completely optional, but if they run into trouble tying into it with the copper, then it becomes not optional any more). The Repipe Specialists guy specified everything down to the brand name of the valves used in various places, and insulating all of the hot water pipes. As I say, I don’t have the quote yet from the local plumber.
So, the questions:
1. Anyone familiar with Repipe Specialists, Inc? I’m thinking of having them do what they do, and having the local plumber do the rest.
They’re headquartered in southern California, where they compete against several other repipe-only companies, and they are the only game in town as far as this kind of specialization in the Bay area.
2. Anyone familiar with the Price-Pfister tub/shower valve the local plumber mentioned? Do the other companies (Moen, Delta, etc) make similar models? Is one to be preferred over another?
3. Any caveats?
Thanks a bunch,
Rebeccah
Edited 1/21/2007 11:12 pm by Rebeccah
Replies
I'm not sure how re-pipe is getting away with using non-plumbers.
Replacing pipe is equal to altering it, not repairing it.
If you alter the piping then they are supposed to obtain a permit, & bring any altered section up to the latest code.
The companies that put an epoxy lining in the pipe are not altering, so I see how they get away with using non plumbers.
The reason you get more cold water than hot water, hot water is a prime temperature for scale & mineral build up, therefore creating a smaller diameter in the pipe equaling less flow.
With copper being at the all time high that it is, I would look into a pex system, far easier to do a re-pipe with it verses copper.
I'm not familiar with the price pfister that has 2 handle pressure balance.
Public showers require scald guard ie pressure balance, but private systems are not required by the UPC, but each local has it's own set of rules.
Plastic DWV piping being supported by metal strapping is approved by the code.
A bit of advise, when posting large paragraphs, press the enter button now & then to get some space in-between the lines, not everyone has eagle eyes.
“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
OK, I've edited my original post to break up the paragraphs a bit.I was kind of wondering about that claim that they don't use plumbers, for exactly the reason that you state. Repipe Specialists *does* get a permit and has to follow code.I don't know what the exact code requirements are in Oakland, which is part of the reason for having a reputable company that *does* know it do the work -- the other reason being that I'm not qualified to do the actual work and the consequences of screwing up are significant.However, there are certain things that are agreed upon by the home inspector who inspected the house before I bought it, the plumbers who gave estimates for the emergency work right after I bought it, and the people I'm getting quotes from now:- The vent has to terminate above the roof (agreed by all who have examined the back bathroom)
- Pressure-balanced valves are required for showers (agreed by both quoting for repipe) and if the repipe goes all the way to the shower head, the valve must be to code
- Plastic waste line is not supposed to be supported by metal (mentioned by home inspector, agreed by multiple plumbers)
- Metal strapping securing the top of the water heater to the nearest structural wood member is too long (the bottom strap is OK, anchored to a concrete wall). To be done properly requires building out to come closer to the heater. The plumbing inspector for the emergency repairs didn't call it out (and he did call out the venting issue despite no work's having been done in that part of the house), but my home inspector, multiple plumbers and the repipe guy all mentioned it.There's some disagreement about whether or not one vent can be shared by all three fixtures in the back bathroom.Pex is an interesting idea for the repipe. I haven't really heard of it being done around here. Anyone local (Oakland CA) know if a) it's allowed here, and b) if there are companies here that do it?Thanks,Rebeccah
Edited 1/21/2007 11:54 pm by Rebeccah
Who's the highly rated local plumber?
Albert Nahman Plumbing and Heating
I have some experience with them, and they are a good company. Is it still Albert himself you deal with? I often recommend Forbes Plumbing, they are very good also. I would not hire a repipe company, I would hire a plumber, specifically someone with a long time in the business locally. Repipe companies, by the sound of it, hire guys who can't or don't want to cut it as real plumbers. Why risk it, IMO.
You can have a pressure reducer installed just inside your main shutoff valve. You will get less water hammer if you dial back to around 60 PSI. I have a well and pressure is 60 PSI max and goes down to 40 as the pressure tank cycles. 40 is plenty, for what it's worth, especially if you have new piping.
I believe that there are separate pressure balanced addon's (or
thermostatic controls which do the same thing) for use with
clawfoot tubs and the like.http://www.clawfootsupply.com/product544Now these are suppose to be filtered for pressure balanced and
2 or 3 handles.But when I clicked on some they where not. But the Danza was.
Only checked a couple.http://www.shopping.com/xDN-plumbing_supplies--faucets-tub_spouts-%3Epressure_balanced%5Eor?AT=three_handles&AT=two_handles&ST=or.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Isn't 80 PSI too high. Wouldn't a max of 65 PSI be more advisable?
80 is on the cusp with the code.
Anything over 80psi by code must have a pressure reducing valve installed on it.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
Both Repipe and Albert Nahman plumbers agreed of the main is touched, then a pressure regulator needs to go in.Rebeccah
"80 is on the cusp with the code.Anything over 80psi by code must have a pressure reducing valve installed on it."Don't tell anyone, but 110-120 works fine.But I used it with a hose to prime the pump/pressure tank that I use for irrigation.And I got distracted. A few minutes later there was water squirting out the bottom of the pressure tank there this is a bolt on flange.Figured that I had screwed the pooch. But after i reliefed the pressure it sealed again and has been used for the last 3 summers..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
LOL
Whenever one of my friends or famly buys a house, first thing I do is uaually run around & pull all the flow restrictors out.
Did that at my BIL, then saw a pressure gauge in the garage reading 102psi.
I told him I would put a PRV on the system, he said he11 no don't touch it, he liked the high pressure.
Now with the flow restrictor removed from the shower head, it's starting to chisel out the grout lines from the pressure------oops.“How many observe Christ’s birthday! How few, his precepts! O! ‘tis easier to keep Holidays than Commandments.” —Benjamin Franklin
Rebeccah -
Check around for your repipe company. It's a big business and lots of companies do it. Try the Yellow Pages - or Craigslist.