Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Jun 26, 2004 09:20pm | #1

   It's a bit hard to figure out what you are talking about since having a helper makes it a two man operation.

   The other way around can be a little like a pig inviting himself as the only guest to a barbeque sometimes.

    

    

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   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
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1. 
   bartmy | Jun 27, 2004 03:21pm | #8

   I guess I meant Owner and one Employee, to clarify for anyone who might be confused. I'm not quite sure what your pig and barbecue reference means. Thanks for any insights.

1. 
   Bowz | Jun 27, 2004 06:26pm | #9

   DD,

   I work by myself, but occationally I will use another builder to help put in beams or such, and I sub out electrical, and plumbing.

   I have been considering adding someone for a half year, but before I do I want to make sure that I will have the work for them that I will make money from. So every morning I have been writing out what I would have an employee do for that day. It has shown me that I do not have the work, and that I would be scrambling to cover his/her hours with "make work" projects.  Is that the position you are in now?

   To change to get the type of work that I can make money on has caused me to re-think the types of work I take on, and I am trying to focus my marketing to bring those types of jobs in.  This also includes turning down work that is out of my focus areas. Once I have the level of work that I can make money at, I will be more inclined to bring someone onboard.

   Another factor you may want to consider is if your estimating times match the production rate of your employee. One problem could be that you are using job-costs from your level of productivity, while your employee may be much slower.  Another factor may be that while your working time on the job may be accurate, you are not accounting for the "non-productive" time that you are paying your employee for. Things like loading tools, getting material, travel time, BSing with the customer time etc.

   Bowz

2. 
   jimblodgett | Jun 27, 2004 12:49am | #2

   I work about 80% of the year alone, but have had helpers regularly through the years.  Every time I have a helper, I'm amazed at how much we get done when we work together, at how motivated I am to keep the train on the tracks and work longer days.

   But whenever I go back to working alone I'm amazed at how relaxed I feel when I get up in the morning, knowing all I have to do is work at my own pace and do things the best I can, maybe take a long lunch if I want...how little substandard work I find on my jobs.

   Anyway, having a helper requires supervision, which is stressful to me.  So there's a trade off.  I am getting to the age where I don't like to hang sheetrock alone very often, or pour concrete alone, even framing alone doesn't appeal to me much these days.  But there's no way I want a helper when I'm building cabinets, installing trim or anything that requires my undivided attention, just too distracting.

   But that's just me.  Lot's of people I know don't like to work alone.  We're all different.
1. 
   RichBeckman | Jun 27, 2004 01:12am | #3

   "Every time I have a helper, I'm amazed at how much we get done when we work together, at how motivated I am to keep the train on the tracks and work longer days.

   But whenever I go back to working alone I'm amazed at how relaxed I feel when I get up in the morning, knowing all I have to do is work at my own pace and do things the best I can, maybe take a long lunch if I want...how little substandard work I find on my jobs."

   Uhh...I agree with Jim.

   I have a whole lot less experience than Jim, but that really describes how it has worked for me so far.

   Rich Beckman

   Another day, another tool.

2. 
   jonblakemore | Jun 27, 2004 01:14am | #4

   Jim,

   I'm very similar to you. On Friday I had 4 guys with me to install slate roofing. I was incredibly motivated all day long and we got a lot done. I find that when I have a job that requires alot of hard work, which are usually that type that don't require much skill and intelligence, having one or more people working along side me really gets me moving. But when I have a complicated layout to perform on a small job, the helper stands around a lot. 

   Jon Blakemore

3. 
   Piffin | Jun 27, 2004 04:43am | #6

   Sounds like we are brothers of the blood 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   andybuildz | Jul 11, 2004 04:55pm | #16

   I work about 80% of the year alone, but have had helpers regularly through the years.  Every time I have a helper, I'm amazed at how much we get done when we work together, at how motivated I am to keep the train on the tracks and work longer days.

   Different years are different situations but I've sure worked alone a lot or with just one guy, yet on larger jobs such as the one I'm on now I always have three guys and I have to tell you that they work better than just one guy...seems like they compete or are just motivated by one another.

   I know who to keep apart and who to keep together....things sure go fast that way.

   Just getting everything set up and broken down and cleaned up.thats a job in itself

   But whenever I go back to working alone I'm amazed at how relaxed I feel when I get up in the morning, knowing all I have to do is work at my own pace and do things the best I can, maybe take a long lunch if I want...how little substandard work I find on my jobs.

   Meeeeeee toooooo. Although thinking about setting up and lugging all my tools alone really sux.

   Last week all three of my guys (July 5th) called in to say they were too tired to come in....duhhh...wished they'd have told me before hand so I coulda just slept and not gotten my workboots on......grrrr.yet I had a feeling of calm after the calls...lol

   Anyway, having a helper requires supervision, which is stressful to me.  So there's a trade off.  I am getting to the age where I don't like to hang sheetrock alone very often, or pour concrete alone, even framing alone doesn't appeal to me much these days.  But there's no way I want a helper when I'm building cabinets, installing trim or anything that requires my undivided attention, just too distracting.

   You must been doing this as long as me (30ish years) and are as old as me (53) cause I feel the same way you do daily....those three guys sure help me feel younger in some ways.brings back memories and saves my back so I can lift a beer easier...lol

   Be older'n dirt but dirtier than old..whaaaaa???

                                                                    andy

    The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   kostello | Jul 11, 2004 06:05pm | #18

   """""" I coulda just slept and not gotten my workboots on..."""""

   what you don't sleep with your boots on????!!!!!! LOL

3. 
   jonblakemore | Jun 27, 2004 01:15am | #5

   DD,

   I think much depends on the type of work your company does. When lifting and installing long pieces are concerned, a helper can increase your ability by more than a factor of 1. On the other hand, reliable and competent help may be difficult to find, and a worker with enough skill to do some tasks autonomously may be too expensive to be effective.

   What kind of work do you do?

    

   Jon Blakemore

1. 
   bartmy | Jun 27, 2004 03:17pm | #7

   Alot of everything. My helper is full time, and I try to have him work alone as much as possible, which ends up being about 75 percent of the time. He is close to a lead-carpenter type, and has a wide variety of skills - decks, window replacement, sidewalling, drywall, tiling, and easy finish trimming he can pretty much handle alone. He is good at thinking on his feet and coming up with a good solution when problems arise, which seems to be a rare skill and one I value very highly..

   He does not have any desire to be a partner - something I offer to him once a year - or go off on his own and lacks effective communication skills , mostly due to shyness and partly due to contempt for idiotic questions. Luckily, the clients we work for on Cape Cod are rarely around while we do our thing.

   I have seen more than a few inferences on this particular (business)board that a two man operation is not such a good money-making setup, but haven't read any specifics reasons why that is so.

   I think my main problem is finding ANY reliable subs for electric, etc. I am currently held up TWO MONTHS waiting for three outdoor porch lights to be roughed so I can close up the ceiling...which is particularly annoying considering that I could install a new main panel myself...I've already had one closed-door meeting with the inspector though, and it wasn't much fun...

   I am not making as much as I should be, and I know most of the reasons why this is the case. I was looking for a bit more insight into the two-man operation issues to make sure I am not missing anything...

   Thanks all for responding

   Edited 6/27/2004 8:23 am ET by Dancing Demon

   Edited 6/27/2004 8:29 am ET by Dancing Demon

1. 
   DanT | Jun 27, 2004 11:18pm | #10

   Dancing,

   I am unsure exactly what you are looking for.  You said helper, then said your guy works alone.  Maybe a definition deficet.  You say you are not making the money you should but you know why.  So I will guess at what you are asking.

   I am a 2 man company.  My brother and I.  I own it, he works for me.  I do the business stuff and field work.  He does field work.  Last week we hired a helper, 7 bucks and hour and know nothing.  Just an attempt to speed things along.

   We do alright and are growing.  I am able to pay him 18 an hour plus a few perks and pay some bonuses based on how job goes and what the job type is.  We do a lot of bathroom mid level remodels and face lifts as well as repairs and general home improvements.  I pay myself and equiviant of 42k a year in salary. 

   We both have company supplied trucks and tools.  We both have company supplied cell phones.  We both have our strengths and weaknesses but the only thing we can't do in residential is masonary and choose to not do much with roofs or exterior paint.  DanT

2. 
   kostello | Jun 28, 2004 08:43pm | #11

   i've just taken on a helper again.

   he almost 17 and has been sat at home for a year.

   in the past i've had several people helping me and there's never enough work for 2 competant people and just a bit too much for 1.

   edit: its seems to me that the right mix is 2 tradesmen to 1 labourer.

   the trouble is finding someone who you don't have to pay a fortune so it doesn't matter if they are standing around 20% of the time.

   although i've had help for a week now i'm already yearning to be alone again as its just another thing to think about.

   as for subs, mine are almost worth their weight in some almost precious metal.

   when you find them and can get them to work for you its great. i do tend to bribe them with dougnuts etc.... so they might think only nice things about me....

   Edited 6/28/2004 1:44 pm ET by kostello

4. 
   dbanes | Jul 11, 2004 07:08am | #12

   I have been there and even worse for some time. But... when I did find a decent helper who is very nearly a master in some things on the job, things took off for me,I was able to go out and bid jobs for him instead of myself... he makes me a ton of money...  I ran an exterior paint job with "corner-standers" and cashed in well, we hand scrubbed eaves and doors on an 1800 sq ft home,sanded,filled,primed the naked wood, in one day,then masked and painted by hand the next,the job cost the client $@@ (how much do you think I made with 3 guys both days?) Attic insulation is a good thing to do at fifty cents a square ft.  and a free blower, you can make better than average, ... E me for more...I can't say much more here without crossing barriers

   [email protected]

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/11/2004 12:05 pm ET by mapache

5. 
   DanH | Jul 11, 2004 03:18pm | #13

   The classical place a helper helps is when there's a lot of futzy ladder work. If the helper can go fetch things and save a trip down and back up the ladder, that can save as much as 50% of your time.

   Another example is installing anything long or awkward, but often an appropriate jig will do the job just as well (but then you have to spend the time making and arranging the jig).

   The best case is when there's some "dumb" work that needs to be done on-site that can keep the helper busy when he's not helping you. Otherwise he may spend 50% of his time standing around.

   Obviously, it makes a lot of difference how skilled/self-motivated the helper is. In many cases it makes most sense to have two people of essentially equal skill working together, with them trading off helping each other as needed, and working independently otherwise.

   But your "management" skills and how you get along with the other person probably are the biggest factors in determining how this will work out.

1. 
   dIrishInMe | Jul 11, 2004 04:08pm | #14

   I'd like to hear about how some of you all handle the tax part of this type of arangment.  When I say taxes, I mean withholdings on the EE's pay.  Do you use an accountant, or can some business software like Quick-Books surfice? 

   ThanksMatt

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 11, 2004 04:40pm | #15

   I use a payroll service - ADP 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Snort | Jul 11, 2004 05:57pm | #17

   I use Aatrix for checks, and an accountant for quarterlies. Don't worry, we can fix that later!

1. 
   dIrishInMe | Jul 11, 2004 07:28pm | #19

   Do you use a MAC or a MS/Windows PC?  Is Aatrix available only from the vendor, or is it available at "the regular places"?

   Thanks,Matt

1. 
   Snort | Jul 11, 2004 09:44pm | #20

   I am on a mac. Looks like Top Pay may only work with mac os. Hard to believe<G> I had to get it when Quick Books Pro stopped their payroll support. I'm pretty sure QuickBooks Pro 6 has Aatrix bundled. Don't worry, we can fix that later!

2. 
   dIrishInMe | Jul 11, 2004 10:43pm | #21

   Thanks.  I'm looking into taking a QuickBooks class at the local community college.  Unfortinately, the next session doesn't start for a month or 2.  BTW - I use a Microsoft/Intel PC.Matt