Hi Everybody,
I am new to the Forum but have subscribed/read Fine Homebuilding for a long time…..I love the Taunton Mags….all of them….
Anyway this is my problem…..I just had a house built, they are still finishing many things but we have moved in finally.
We have open back steps to our second floor. The carpenter who built them, just glued and screwed the step tread to the side support pieces. I am not sure what the sides are called (stringers maybe?) Anyway. We have lived there barely a week and already have a loose tread. I believe that the treads should have been dadoed into the side pieces, then glued and screwed. Just creating a flush joint between the step tread and side piece won’t stand the test of time in my opinion.
Does anyone have any ideas as to how these steps should have been built so they withstand the 100 year test? Thanks for all of your help!!!
Regards,
Kathy
Replies
Reading a high end publication and building a low end house will make one dissatisfied.
Glue and screws are fine.
Do you mean the treads and risers are just nailed into the sides of the stringers? Or are the stringers cut so they look kind of like saw teeth?
A picture would help a lot, if you have access to a digital camera......
I thought about you naked twice today.
Then I got cold and put some clothes on.
The stringers are straight, not cut like a saw tooth. The treads ared glued and screwed into the flat side of the straight stringer. The stringers are 2" x 12's made from multiple boards glued together to create the thickness required. I could take a pic....I do have a digital camera...first I need to get my computer set up so I can copy the pic out of the camera.....
I realize the glue joint is usually stronger than the wood but I have also read lots of books on wood joinery and know from personal experience that screws don't always hold....and we are seeing that....we already have a lose tread which the builder proposes to fix by putting in more screws....I don't see more screws as a long term solution.....
Thanks for your input!
This is NOT the normal way to make steps - Sounds like the guy is a screwball.
The glue won't last forever, and the screws wil work loose over time. When one of them comes off the stringer it won't be a fun ride.A witty saying proves nothing, but saying something pointless gets people's attention.
A glued joint where the grains are the same is strong BUT when end grain is glued to straight grain it isn't that strong ,then you have the issue of screws into end grain, again not strong enough for stairs, OK for bookcases but not stairs at the least the treads should have cleats glued & screwed under them even better would be dadoes into stringer.More screws are not the answer they will just make the treads weaker by probably splitting them, over the years they will split from use, and don't let him use drywall screws they don't have the shear for this application.
So you have screws going into the end grain of the treads. Screws hold better going across the grain, because going into the end grain, they cut the wood fibers into little chunks that can break out easily.
One solution would be to glue and screw cleats to the sides of the stringers under the treads. If the cleats would be an appearance issue, you might try to salvage the original design by going to extremely long screws, and plenty of them. But if you try that, keep an eye on the problem because you may have to fix it again. Try McFeeley's for the long screws if you go that route. A more labor intensive way to avoid the cleats would be to remove the treads and cut two dadoes in the bottom of each one to conceal pieces of all-thread that would tie the two stringers together and compress the treads between them. This would require having enough thickness in the stringers to countersink and conceal washers and nuts on the all-thread.
Another thing to remember is that if you take screws out of wood and put them back in, there's a right way to do it. You should push the screw in gently while turning it counterclockwise until it clicks into the existing thread in the wood, then screw it in. If you let the screw cut new threads in the wood every time you put it in, the hole strips out pretty quickly.
-- J.S.
Yes, we have screws going into the end grain of the treads.
Cleats would definitely be an appearance issue.
It would difficult to pull a glue joint apart, even one where the end grain is glued. What is the best way to salvage the treads?
Thanks for all of your information.
For consideration..
Dowel thru the stringer and into the theads. Use high contrasting dowels. Walnut or dark stained oak, ash or maple dowels and go for a pleasant bled.
Make up the dowels to come out w/ a button look.
Chamfer and or bevel cut the cleats in addition to the dowels. Trade off a little of the function for looks.
Measure carefully, use a drill guide and a brad point bit. Perhaps three dowels to a thread end, at least two. Using the 1/3rd rule, 1/2" dowels.
Gorrilla glue to the rescue.
Your builder should replace them
Who designed your home? did they detail the stair in this way?
The stringers should be ploughed out to house the tread. These stairs will fail, and are dangerous, get rid of them.
Sounds like a nice looking stair otherwise, maple is beautiful and strong. but the construction is flawed.
Cheers
The detail step design was not part of the original plans....We decided on the style during the process.
I agree the steps are flawed. I told my builder they are flawed....I wanted some other opinions as to how to correct them.
Thank you!
I appreciate all of the time that people took to answer my questions.
Pull them and redo them correctly....
Draw and quarter the original carpenter... That should teach him not to screw up your stairs. <G>
Actually, if cleats are done properly and up to the same level of finish as the original flawed steps, they could be an acceptable solution. Carpenter friend of mine used cleats on a really nice set of maple/walnt stair up the middle of his house and they're still tight after 20+ years. Maybe worth a try.
I would have the stairs replaced. And you should be very upset about this. Building inspector or no building inspector, there is a right and a wrong way of doing things. This one is definitely wrong and will fail.
I would get immediately fired by the guy I work with if I tried to pull this. And I'm not even really a carpenter. But he expects things done properly. To him, there is really just no other way.
There are probably 2 or 3 ways to do these stairs right..... double thickness stinger, one straight, one notched..... stringer with dadoes..... But I don't think any of the right ways include gluing end grain to straight grain and saying "Yep, that's perfect!"
Rob Kress
Frankly I have been upset about alot things associated with building this house....it's been very difficult.
We have an additional problem that the plumber did not tighten the water connection to the dishwasher it ruined the hardwood floor in the whole kitchen, dining, hall and part of the great room. Water ran between the subfloor and the hardwood floor. Now we need to decide how to resolve this problem. REmove all of the damaged floor and the kitchen cabinets, etc and replace everything or try and sand it down....it would seem removing it is the correct solution but it's an overwhelming thought to rip everything out and rebuild it.....
Since no one else said it ....
Open backed stairs are more than likely not to code.
Have the plumber fix his problem, the kithcen floor and cabinets.
Ha, I beat you by one nanosecond. The code thing.
I can already see what happened to the hardwood floor! Sanding is NOT an option and don't let anyone from the building company tell you that it is.
I have installed many hardwood floors and have suffered with water problems on my own at my cabin (in Pennsylvania by the way).
I'm sure in the current state the floors are bowed or cupped or maybe even worse, the floor is slightly buckled. If you sand in this condition, the floors will be completely destroyed and will only look good for the next very short while until the floor COMPLETELY dries out. When that happens, all of your seams will open up like the grand canyon, black stains will appear from mold growth and the floor will cup or bow the opposite way that it was before sanding. All thanks to the really high quality plumber!
Replace the floor. It is new construction right! And you currently don't "own" the house. Don't except a substandard product. Would you purchase a floor that looked bad if you just walked in and had no history about it's installation. Well, probably not. While nothing is perfect, you should be expecting a perfect installation. That the seam at the wall under the baseboard is 1/2" instead of 1/4" is enough imperfection. Don't give the builder anymore leeway than that!
I would say go get a new builder but I know you are already way in on it so just be vigilant. It is your 250,000 dollars or so. Just because it is so much money doesn't mean that the little things should be allowed to slide by (and of course, I don't think an improperly built stairway and a fatally damaged floor are little things).
Oh yea, and if (excuse me.... WHEN) the floor is replaced where it got wet, make sure the entire floor gets sanded and refinished (if it was unfinished planks in the initial installation). Trying to get the floor finish to adhere to the first layer of floor finish over the original good section (that has already fully cured) will never be right and may show up as a problem later.
Good luck,
Rob Kress
Thanks Rob for all of your input...my gut tells me that a new floor should be installed...the floor is very damaged and still drying out, the edges of the boards are buckled...it's beech by the way.....finished with 4 coats of water based finish....
I can't comprehend having a home built with out inspections, whether it is with a local building inspector or by a private firm. There are too many smucks out there who try to do be contractors (as on con man) with only their wallet in mind and/or have no clue what they are doing. Didn't an engineer or architect do the plans with all of these details? I understand that "buyer beware" should be always kept in mind, but this is ridiculous.
To all you legitimate and ethical contractors: this doesn't mean you I can't believe how many guys who call themselves contractors, whether they have a license or not, can purposely and willfully build something when they know it's not right. And then live with it.
The 'builder' needs to take the stairs out and rebuild them. Glue on end grain is worthless. Only thing holding them up is shear strength on the screws which darn sure isn'r enough. I vote for staying of them. This carpenter will end up having his liability insurance tested - you did hire a builder with insurance didn't you? Or is this not politically expediant either?
Hope I don't sound too harsh but this clown built a death trap.
The plumber should have insurance to cover his butt too. ( There's a potential joke in there someplace).
Excellence is its own reward!
What gives?
A reply that long and no mention of the possibility that the original carpenter (might be a stretch to call him that) might have used DRYWALL SCREWS for the connection? Is all that ribbing that CAG is giving you softening you up?
Jon Blakemore
Don't I have enough work here dealing with just the facts, Maam? Yopu want me to speculate too?
OK - for speculation - how's this?
if this so called builder doesn't understand structural loading, shear strength and customer satisfaction any more than is indicated by the facts, Then this owner has plenty more to worry about. She should hiore a professional builkding inspector to review ALL of what has been done before she issues a final check. By the way he did these stairs, he has advertised boldly just what kind of builder he is - a hack.
Do hacks generally just mess up one thing?
No! They make a practice of messing up everything they touch.
I'll say a prayer for her.
Good night..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sure hope my light ribbing isn't softening ya up lol....
I try to be gentle on the older and wiser :)
Man I just can't keep serious for 2 seconds can I
View ImageGo Jayhawks..............Next Year and daaa. Blues View Image
You do hafta work hard with Qtrmeg and I tag teaming you.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Finding a 'professional' building inspector in an area that doesn't have inspections would be difficult. It is a nice idea but in practice would be difficult to follow through on....we live very close to the NY state line...it may be possible to find someone in Jamestown, NY or Chautauqua county that would be qualified. I don't know specifically what the building regulations are in NY but they regulate almost everything so they probably have inspections too...
It is something to consider...especially before we sign off on the last draw for the construction loan.
Edited 4/29/2003 2:39:25 PM ET by Kitty
Yes ! Everyone has insurance...we checked all the certificates....but even with insurance it's not a perfect solution but it's better then not having insurance.....we are waiting for the bids on the floor, etc....we are thinking of getting bids on the repair/replacement of the steps.....my builder hasn't called me back on the steps issue...I faxed him about 1/2 of the responses from this break time forum so he would have to take my word for the fact the steps are built improperly....
Thanks for your input!
no the screws are not going to hold. was this looked at and passed by the building inspector try to send us a pic and you will get better advise on what to do. are these stairs outside or interior. what kind of material did you use. you might be able to add some l brackets under each tread. but even those come loose after a while.what you are probably going to have to do is add more stringers under the stairs. when you cut the new stringer to fit thats when you are going to find out how far of the guys measurements are each step needs to be the same hight and width.
Pennsylvania does not currently have a building inspection program in place. They are in the process of putting one in place but currently there are no inspectors. As the home owner, I have to police the builder at all times...I wish the inspection program was inplace but politically it is a hot potato....many small builders don't want it, etc....
The steps are inside to the second floor and are made of soft maple. Hardness approximately 950 on the hardness scale. They are finished with a clear water based finish. I will take a pic and post it.....They LOOK nice....
I'm surprised that no one has said "Stay off of the stairs until they are repaired."
If I'm picturing this correctly, I sure wouldn't want to be walking up or down those steps. Especially without knowing just what kind of screws were used!
I suppose I'd go down them in the case of a fire, but not until I'd carefully determined that I had no choice.
Another day, another tool.
the fastest, easiest, is probably the cleat thing. You could kind of partially conceal them with a "fascia" across the front of them under the tread, which is probably what an inspector would force you to install if you had inslpections inthe first place. With stairs, there's a 4 inch sphere rule ..... you can't have more than 4 inchs between open treads, and balusters. You probably don't even have balusters.
When I worked in philidelphia there were building inspections, is this a rural area?
I suppose it's rural compared to Philadelphia.....it's Erie County. I used to live in Allegheny county and they had inspections there too. The state passed a law requiring a state wide inspection program but locally the implementation is very slow. I would imagine the local builders association does not really want inspections....
Still waiting for the photo -- but I will post this possible fix anyway for your stair problem. This assumes that you have access to both sides of the stairs -- in other words one side is not built tight to a wall. If these are open stairs and open on each side consider adding functional and ornamental tie rods below each tread and tie the two stringers together. Don't use all thread -- but rather black iron with each end threaded. Place a small "king post" block in the center of each tread. Look at the way older wooden step ladders were built. Finding the right person to do this will be the problem -- but that should be your builder's problem anyway. (plug for blacksmiths -- they could make these rods -- including twists etc.) If I was doing it I would use 1/2 square black iron with a 1/2 - 13 tread and ornamental washer and nut. I would use two per tread.
As it has been said else where these stairs don't sound like "they are to code" -- at least not in my area -- in our case we must pass the 4 inch rule -- where the opening at the back of the tread cannot be greater than 4 inches.
deblacksmith
Sorry about the photo...really busy...just got my computer at home set up (we just moved into the house) and then left for a business trip....will try to get the photo taken and posted this week....
I will measure the opening to see if it passes the 4" rule...I believe it's bigger than 4 inches...
Does anyone know what these type of steps are actually called?
Does anyone know what these type of steps are actually called? Dangerous.Do it right, or do it twice.