I’m getting ready to shingle a 4/12 pitch ranch in Wisconsin, and was wondering if anyone had any thought regarding their preferred method of prepping and shingling valleys. I’ll be using laminated shingles. FHB 152 has some great tips on this topic. I’m interested especially in the “Long Island” method. But a recent article in issue 172 states that the open valley w/ W flashing is pretty much the way to go.
What would you do if it was your home?
Replies
I have used the Long Island valley method demonstrated here on several roofs in eastern Missouri, it is quicker, smoother and looks great. On my place, defintely long island
Look, I know six ways to do a valley. each with their own benefits, half of which are cosmetic, but I have no idea what a Long Island valley is. Those who live on that island and those who have memorized the article might know. For the rest of us, maybe you could be more graphic in your description.
That said, any laminated type architectural shingle does poorly when lapped or layered or bent through the fold of the valley. The stress of folding is more likely to break the shingle, or separate the laminations. A metal valley becomes more advantageous for a long life roof, more so as you get into colder climates and steeper roofs. The cold makes the shingle more brittle and the steeper roof pitch makes the fold that much deeper.
so - you can get away with laying shingles through the valley on a 4/12 or so in the warm south, if you are careful and back it up good, but if you live in the north and/or have 10/12 roof, I would absolutely refuse such a cvalley method.
Whether open or closed metal valley, you can do it either way with metal. under trees that shed debris, i would rather see it open, but in an open area, I think a nice tight cut to the center W is a nice clean look. The metal used is important also. A forty or fifty year shingle should not have a 20 yr metal. Most galvanized and bare aluminum valleys will be corroded in 25 years. Copper or leaded copper is best. Coloured AL coil stock can do if bent carefully. Some can break form the stress of working it tho.
I can do all types but one just about equally fast more or less, depending on pitch. When you are talking about a lifetime roof, anhour or two and a bit of easier work is not a good way to make a decision, especially when the wrong decision can mean re-roofing before the roof is half worn out
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who never heard of a Long Island Valley. And I was born there, LOL....
I've always liked to let my flashings flash, LOL. I usually keep the valleys open a good 2-3" total. It helps wash out the leaves and needles; it also helps evacuate mid-day melt water faster and so reduces the size of the ice dams at the eaves.
The W valley is almost unknown up here, but a few years back I chanced upon a house done quite a while ago by some anonymous master roofer (wish I'd known him; he was good) and it convinced me. I figure spec'ing W valleys instead of bending my own metal with a couple of 2x4's will raise my price on a medium-small roof something like 37 bucks. If I can't sell an extra 37 bucks I oughta give it up....
Dinosaur
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As described in FHB 152, the author learned this method from a roofer from "Long Island". Thus the name... Working out from the valley, the Long Island method starts out like a closed cut valley where the shingles run across the valley. However the shingles from the other side do not cross the center line of the valley and then get trimmed. Instead, a row of inverted shingles is laid along what would be the cut line, and then the lower corner of each course is aligned to that.
Since the roof is a 4/12 pitch, the shingles will not be folded too much..
I know that there are many ways to shingle valleys, and Piffins comments "When you are talking about a lifetime roof, an hour or two and a bit of easier work is not a good way to make a decision, especially when the wrong decision can mean re-roofing before the roof is half worn out" is good advice.
That being said, any more ideas regarding this Long Island method?
I've actually done valleys that way. I always added a squirt of Karnak on the folded shingle (overkill, so what)It does look good IMO.
BE well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
That is what we more commonly call a lapped cut valley since the first side is lapped thru and the second is cut on a straight line. I stil don't recommend them for archy lam shingles but if you insist...As I said, you have to lay them on a nice warm day so they are flexable. be sure the first side lays across the valley so approx half the shingle is on each side. There are ways of aadjusting layout so this happens - not hard with archies. The most important thing here is that you never ( this is true with ANY valley method) have any nails penetrating anything within a good 8" of the center line of the valley. That is where the water courses and where ice and snow will cause it to back up. A nail hole is a leak! No need to drive a nail on the free side of the valley. You want to let them lay easy so they nestle down to shape with the warmth while you keep laying up.but even before you get that point, you have to get yourself a backing of ice and water shield bewhind the shingles. Best is to do this before drying in with underlayment so it is properly adhered and wrinkle free. Some brands have a tear strip so you can strip the paper backing off one side at a time for situations like valleys. Other times, it is easier if working alone, to just run shorter stripsup the valley.What we used to do is to dry-in with the felt, then lay 90# roll roofing, then run coil valley metal, then lapp the shingles into the valley.
Whatever - but you absolutely have to have a waterproof way to shed water on down your valley, because a lapped or woven valley WILL leak some when heavy rains back up in it. I know this from the hundreds of roofs I have torn off, and the water sign and occasionally roted sheathing I find there. With a good underlayment and valley backing, the water sign is on top of it and no rot. The final step in the process depends a lot on what sort of shingle cutting skills you have. There are also a large number of ways to cut shingles, - you want one that gaurantees you will cut straight and not cut into the first lapped layer in the valley.Get the ridge on and it's beer-thirty
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Sorry, I read further along and saw this post.
If I am reading this right, he means laying a shingle up the valley in line with the center, and running courses to it to finish...there is no cutting or lapping. Metal is exposed and the first shingle out of the valley has a sq. edge.
That is a Kentucky valley..geeee. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Yeah, I barely remember that article about the LI valleys. Think that only works with laminates right? Also if I remember right, he wasn't putting any backer behind besides the felt paper? Just lap the one, and trim the other in line with valler? Or are you saying that they ran a course vertical up the valley as a sort of backing?
I've done something similar with 3 tabs......Get a roll of granular roofing, and run that down the valley, and then lap one side, and cut the other in line. Course that are low pitch roofs. -----I think that little diagram was on the package of the shingles?
Looks pretty good IMHO
Then again, I agree that the metal valleys last longer. Done both, but I just put on what the boss tells me to. My grandparents house has w valleys and was roofed in 1950, too this day, doesn't leak, not cupping, nothing. Course as long as i can remember they've made me get up there and tar the valleys ever couple years.
So I'd say if i was putting on a cheap shingle (30 year) then i'd do a lap valley, and If I was putting down good shingle (40 or 50 yr) then I'd do the metal valleys.
Or if I had a steep pitch too..........Copper valleys look bad to the bone on a nice house!When in doubt, get a bigger hammer!
Yeah. What I was saying is that there is no cutting. Run a line of full shingles say 5" outta the center of the valley, shingle eithe to that edge or start there.
I don't see much shingle work and esp. 3 tabs. This method tho' seems like a good way to cover the valley metal's edges and save a lot of shearing. If you ever were on a 14/12 with a shingle shear..you'd know completly. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
but I have no idea what a Long Island valley is>>>>>>Where TIPIFEST 06 might be...you have to forgive me father.
Be unresistable
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
without mountains, you can't have any valleys on LI!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Geez..me too. What the heck is that?
as too the OP's info about chioces, all I can say is I learned ( from my current association with SeeYou (G) )..is that, no matter what material is going as the weather face, any "W" valley is more trouble to detail at the ends than the detail of the "w" is gaining anything.
I'll keep reading and see if the LI valley is gonna sneak up on us in copper, and I have to actually learn MORE than I am cramming in my head about copper roofing..LOL Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Metal valley all the way. Looks better and more professional and stays cleaner with regards to leaves and needles etc.
Bob, I half remember the article. Long Island valley was just one form of a woven valley. Like Piffen and others said, I'd go with the open valley with metal flashing in it. I don't care for the look of the woven valleys and question long term performance. Frankly, I don't see the woven valleys as being much faster or cheaper except for the cost of the metal. But once you factor in the extra shingle for the overlaps...???
(By the way, I live on Long Island, as if that were worth anything.)
Don K.