I know you guys can be shy but please make an exception and give a guy some help please.
My daughter and son-in-law are looking to build a starter home. They have located the property and are eager to start building. This is the firm they have been referred to. http://www.hilinehomes.com/default.htm
They are about 300 miles away so I won’t be much help to them. They are young and on a tight budget. They have good credit but don’t want to stretch into the realm of any creative financing, which makes me happy, given the current conditions and foreclosures.
Any feedback on this company and suggestions will be welcomed and I will forward info to them.
They are willing to forgo quite a bit on ammenities and will consider doing upgrades “later” when they are better established. I have warned them about ‘quality issues’, promises of instant equity and promised deadlines. They will at least be aware of these issues. I don’t want to be the big meany and rain on their parade and enthusiasm. I remember (barely) what it was like to be young and eager. ;0)
Thanks in advance for your input.
bum
…The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain…
Be kind to your children….they will choose your nursing home.
…aim low boys, they’re ridin’ shetland ponies !!
Replies
Opinions - you came to the right place :-)
Wow!!! - those houses are dirt cheap! I would think they are modular, but it almost didn't sound like it from the web site description. I guess those are Canadian dollars so it makes some difference, but still - I wouldn't have real high hopes as to what I was gonna receive. I'm assuming utilities, and any site work is not included in those prices.
I'd say a way you could help is to go look at some of the houses with your daughter and her husband and simply explain what you see. Point out the good stuff too, and try to stay away from saying how things should have been done. Since it's a starter home, we have a pretty good idea that they won't be staying there forever, so try and look at it from an investment standpoint.
Taking a quick look at the somewhat abbreviated specs page the only things I really saw that I would question are the particle board underlayment for the vinyl floors, and the "forced air electric wall heaters" - what kind of heaters are those? Sounds like electric baseboard or something similar.
Edited 4/7/2007 8:47 am ET by Matt
They found a piece of property they really want with a great deal from the owner. Three and a half acres in a town they love with a view of the mountains that won't ever be threatened by adjoining building (s). It is in snow/cold country of central Washington east of the Cascades.
The understanding is they do all site prep and my SIL has no problem with that. He has some equipment experience and several "budz" with the know-how and capability to help in a timely fashion. They are planning on staying here for a long while with their "almost 3" :0) daughter.
I've mentioned a couple things based on the sketchy info on the site but they "say" they are willing to do this now and upgrade or improve later. When and at what cost, who knows?
My inclination would be to pass but I want to give them every opportunity to consider what a good local builder can do withoiut breaking the bank. If it means a lot of so called upgrades then I think a look see at someone else would be worth the time and effort. Just IMHO. I've never worked in the trades but have an appreciation for what should be done....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
They found a piece of property they really want with a great deal from the owner. Three and a half acres in a town they love with a view of the mountains . . .
They have a property they love and are looking at plopping a mediocre home on it?
Tell them to go small and design to the site. Focus on details. Don't build around silly square footage numbers and real estate jargon. Determine what they really love and need.
They have an opportunity to do something spectacular, and can always add on later.
I'm in complete agreement with you here. That is what I am trying to steer them to but they have to understand that and then follow through.
I mentioned they ought to really think hard about outfits like this, (Maybe I'm being too judgemental here as I know little about them) because what they might consider later to do an upgrade or improvement will/may turn into a complete tearout/replacement.
I've offered some assistance with finance but they are patient are willing to work and wait and improve later. It is refreshing but a little worrisome to this old guy.
I think I'll make a little road trip next week and visit some of their sites....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
They might want to check out some books at the library written specifically with the smaller home in mind. There's even some that claim designs built below a certain $$ amount (like $200,000). Some may be a tad dated now, but the idea is still relevant.
FH even has one (have seen it listed on http://www.edwardrhamilton.com/) . Their annual 'House' issues are good to peruse for examples as well. They often provide costs as well as in-depth descriptions.
You are so right. Get a simple small custom design and a decent local builder, use whatever good material you can afford, instead of getting stuck with whatever the tract builder has already spec'd to meet his own needs and profit margin (nothing wrong with that of course he wants to stay in business. Build with future add-on in mind ,esp. if they love the location and plan to stay awhile. OSB on 24" centers not a good idea.
I only read a couple of the specs. 7/16" osb on 24" centers? 6"x12" footing? I would not reccomend using this builder. I stopped reading the specs after ten seconds,that was enough for me.
mike
I missed the "6"x12" footing". How can that be? It looks like a crawl space house. Are they using 4" block for the foundation walls? I guess you could put 8" block on a footer that is 12" wide, but the layout would have to be nearly perfect. BTW our local code requires a 4" projection of the concrete footer beyond the foundation wall so this wouldn't fly. Granted this is our code, but I wouldn't think 12" wide footings would be allowed anywhere unless the soil has a bearing capisity of maybe 4000 PSF which we don't have anywhere around here. Maybe they only build in places that don't have inspections? Maybe they add all kinds of extras like $800 for extra concrete for soft soil - soft soil being 2000 psf :-)
Go over the specs carefully, like I said I only spent seconds looking at the specs after the footing and roof sheathing details. Looks like a eveything is an upgrade type of deal.I do not know of any state that would allow 6x12" footings.24" rafter spacing with 7/16" osb even if the roof is steep is not something I would build.
mike
it aint bad, its a basic house, just let the company build it and pay the money when they get done.
location: Oregon A 6' x 12' footings are perfectly fine for a single story "crawler" home.
That is the standard if you have assumed 2500 psf. soils, I didn't read the specs, but if it is a poured foundation then it will have a 6" wall atop the footing, standard stuff here. Rebar is mandatory here, as are anchors, tie downs etc. Also here a tract/ crawler will be built with 7/16" sheathing (nominal 1/2" ), 2x6 on 24" centers. Passes code and is what you get when you buy starter homes . (Actually is more efficient, saves lumber, allows for more insulation and meets even the wind and earthquake scenarios if the wall has enough brace panel area) 1/2" roof sheathing is also the norm for these places. No judgement, just what is .
Edited 4/7/2007 12:46 pm by dovetail97128
What's a "crawler"?
What's a crawler?
A baby, usually a year or 2 old. Ha ha ha
Sorry
Its a crawlspace
Matt, A "crawler" , "dinger" , "ticky tacks", "little boxes" (from the song) are all slang terms here to denote a single story , starter home. Used to be about 1100 sq./ft +/-, now about 1400 sq.ft. Inverted "T" footing, 4x6 post and beam , 2x8 car decking, T-111, single bath, truss roof. Some builders built the decks and had the hvac and plumbers actually crawl under the floor to do their work, while the framers carried on above.
They have been called that since FHA homes were being built back in the late 60's, early 70's around here.
OK - sorry - more regional lingo that I may or may not understand: >>4x6 post and beam ,<< are you saying that the girders in the CS are 4x6 and likely the piers too? and: >> 2x8 car decking, << What is that?
"2x8 car decking" = 2x8 tongue & groove, I've seen more 2x6 than 2x8 though.
Saying 2x8 car decking is kinda redundant.
It was the standard in great northwet for a very long time, around here it is one of the biggest suppliers for salvaged lumber.“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
It surprizes me somewhat that that could be cheaper than 3/4" T&G plywood or OSB
plumbbill, I have wondered if that term "car decking " for 2x8 T&G didn't come from a usage on truck beds and rail cars.
That would make sense to me if that was the origin.
Since Seattle is home to the orginal "skid row" Yesler ave was a log skid down to the mill.“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
>> Since Seattle is home to the original "skid row" Yesler ave was a log skid down to the mill. <<
My great grand father made it big in logging, lumber, and real estate back around 1910 out there in Washington State. He was in the Centralia area, served as Chief Magistrate (mayor) of that town 2 times and there is actually a very small nearby town named after him: Galvin. He had a 6000 acre ranch. I've only visited Washington State 2 or 3 times.
Cool, did he have an Uncle Sam billboard?
You're probably not going to get that joke but Blodgette should. ;-)“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
The billboard got moved a few years back and is on the other side of I-5 now, closer to Chehalis than Centrailia. Think I went thru Galvin once taking old 99 to get around a wreck on I-5.
Did have fun 20 years ago watching WA state try to get the billboard taken down, the politicos in this state would have never said 'peep' if it was a liberal billboard.
Happy Easter!
Edited 4/8/2007 12:05 pm ET by junkhound
If it was a liberal sign it wouldn't have been moved it would have gotten historical protection. :-)
OK if I keep this up this thread will get bumped to the Tav.“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
I know the billboard well. Always entertaining and provocative....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
When I was a kid it was always a family tradition to look for the sign, & see if it changed on the way back.“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
Matt, Not so much regional lingo I think as regional building practices. 4x6 , yes girders for the floor are 4x6, posts 4x4 except at end joints of girders where they are 4x6. 32"-48" o.c. depending on who the builder was. To increase spans of the girders some builders would use 4x8 girders and save on concrete piers. Posts sat on 2'sq x 8' deep pads , poured when the foundation was poured. 2x8 car decking is 2x8 T&G , usually #3 & btr. (3 and better..and not much of the better often times, some loads were pure crap , others held a large amount of #1's. Luck of the draw .)
Sometimes the forms for concrete were 2x8/10 and the builder would save them , use 32" spacing on girders and then use the form lumber as part of his subfloor. Using beams and T&G both for floors and roofs wasn't uncommon here.
Timber comes from the hills within an 1-4 hr. drive, National mills were local . Boise Cascade, Stimson, Willamina Lumber, LP, GP, all had mills around here when I started .
What's a crawler?
I had one with my coffee this morning.
i cant comment on this company but there are some companys that advertise like that, everyone i talked to got some pretty bad work, I would feel better if they got a local builder with good references and looked over a few jobs, A cheap price is cheap for a reason, At least go with plywood if they do go with that company
you got to rememeber, this company has its own plans, they build the same house, over and over and over. There no changes. it all very basic, no custom at all. They buy their doors in bulk, buy their windows in bulk, there are properly all the same size. all their shingle, same brand, same color, in bulkThat how come they are cheap, they can build this house in less than 30 days.
oldbeachbum,
I finally read the specs and the story of the company.
From what I see these are what we used to call "FHA specials", expect 2 hinge doors, cheapest finishes possible, 20 yr roofs, near bottom of the barrel stuff in general. Meet but never ever exceed code. (No 3-way switches for instance, 1 coat "blow and go" color paint jobs)
Basic construction details are typical for the NW region. Basic , Basic, Basic, expect that and you won't be too disapointed. Workmanship is generally poor but passable by code, everything is piece or sq./ft. cost based.
If it beats the local competition by a bunch it may be worth it for a starter.
One big issue is the location, is it in a neighborhood sub-developement of such homes?
If so my experience is that the neighborhood is at it best when new, it will quickly go down hill and may or may not ever come back. "High risk Loans " abound in these neighborhoods.
Better to build one on a lot in another area with good homes if possible.
Don't mean to be too discouraging, just trying to not set up expectations about what they would be buying.
I would strongly encourage them to get a simple basic floor plan, talk to a local builder (check the local LY contractors desk for good ones who do simple houses ) and compare price and specs with this company.
Now, my own first home would have made those look like the Taj Mahal and I was proud of it and would have been devastated if my old man had been honest with me ...instead he just said it looked like a good start toward a future.
Just read your post of location etc. Guess you can ignore my comments on that aspect.;-)
Edited 4/7/2007 8:32 pm by dovetail97128
I remember (barely) what it was like to be young and eager.....
Our family started out like that in Seattle area , 35 years ago when somebody except billionaires could still afford a few acres here.
Originally we were going to either build a garage with a loft over it to live in, then build the house as we saved $$. Also considered a mobile home while we built.
Of course, DIY everything, pay as you go.
Ended up building 5300 sq ft and moved in when 2 rooms were done. Weenie WA codes nowadays in some locales (IRC sucks) may not allow that now, but the garage loft, mobile home options can be considered.
Your SIL and daugher probably need to figure if they have the brains to learn and energy to work 17-18 hr days for 2 years if they want to go that way. No loans, no debt - great equity builder!
BTW: 2nd floor is 2x6 car decking over one side milled logs for beams. Car decking was $64/MBF in '74, not even sure one can get it now reliably. In the 60's , 3x6 double tongue and groove was also available, 10 ft span for roofs common.
Edit: just checked the same yard we bought from in '74, o #3 decking available, only select, about $125 MBF. Gee, that's only about 20X more than then, made $4/hr then, dont make 20X that now. There actually were "good ol' days".
Edit 2: Land prices 'only' about 150X then as now too!
Edited 4/8/2007 12:09 am ET by junkhound
Edited 4/8/2007 12:11 am ET by junkhound
Edit 2: Land prices 'only' about 150X then as now too!
Don't ya wish you bought more land back then.
If ya did I would be working on your projects instead of Kemper Freemans. :-)“When politicians and journalists declare that the science of global warming is settled, they show a regrettable ignorance about how science works.” Nigel Calder, editor of New Scientist
junkhound
I built with some of that 3x decking. Beams for rafters were common place . Also did a house with what was called "superdeck". Actually a laminated stick made up of 3 pieces of 1x material with the middle piece off set to make the tongue and groove. Made a finish floor out of that stuff.
I remember the owner had us counter sink the screws we put it down with and then he went around and plugged the holes with bright new pennies.
OBB,
They've got a great home site, a big place where they can see themselves living for many years. That's a great start but there are better ways to proceed.
They don't need a big home to start out. So, assuming that their earning power will grow, wouldn't it be wiser to build a small home, one which has been designed for specific additions in the years ahead? For example, a two bedroom, one bath, with plans for a master bedroom/bathroom addition on that end of the place. The kitchen, dining room, living room could eventually open up into a home theatre and family room. That's a very simple approach to avoid stretching the finances while getting quality work from a better builder. Begin with 1000sqft and add according to your means and tastes as you and your family grow.
Hudson Valley Carp and Shtrum hit it. It's exactly the way I see things too. What are the three most important words in real estate?....location location location. Well, they got that! They don't need any more than 1000 sf right now. Why don't you show them this thread and then let them decide?
It's hard to sit back and watch your kids face these things when you may know better, and what they think they need and want at the moment is a result of the impatience of youth.
Yes. I've even sent them some books I just purchased here at Taunton Press. (maybe some brownie points here from the Mods for future indescretions ;0) ?)
There is a difference between cheap and economical. Let's hope we can deterrmine the line and maintain it....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
I too would "also" consult another company and compare apples to apples. Some things don't appear as they may at first.
The price of as low as 38 a foot seems very cheap. Even a company that mass produces them.
We have a companies similiar to this as far as mass production low priced homes. Over all I see no problem in them. But the price and the way they project this is misleading. For instance, the one local doesn't include septic systems or sewer, driveway material (concrete, asphalt), also other items I can't recall. Essentially they are projecting a lower cost home to get you in the door. Where as some other builder will give you the whole package turn key price which will appear way higher. I may be way off on this company but check it out more for the kids. Experience goes along way and is cheap in your case.
As far as building materials, I am going to step way out there and state they too have to build to code. They may not do "better" but it will be to code.
Semper Fi
"To be young and a conservative, you have no heart"
"To be old and a liberal, you have no mind"
Winston Churchill
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem."
PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN, 1985
If they're going to be building around the leavenworth or ellensburg areas, shoot me an email. I know some good folks around there that are into the small, affordable homes. Won't be as cheap or as fast per square foot, but it would be quality.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Thanks, I just sent one to you....The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
Zak,
I know you're a busy guy but I just want to say thanks for the e-mail and have sent it on to the "kids". Also, the other tips from all of you guys. Much appreciated.
bum...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home.
...aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!