Got me a decent sized old house. About 2300 ft. two stories. Full attic with stairs and 7 to 800 more ft. potential finished space. No insulation in the walls, but the attic floor is pretty full.
Existing heat is a dinosaur steam boiler with radiators in every room. I can handle that type of heat itself, but the boiler is getting old.
I would like to do forced air. I know it won’t be difficultto get ducts to every room, as the basement and the attic are accessable, but anyone have an opinion if it’s better to have one big furnace in the basement, or two smaller units, one up, one down.
Cost is a somewhat a factor, but if two units are long run more efficient, I’m leaning that route.
Comments? Advice?
Here’s a pic of the house
ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Nice house. Hip roofs make for nice attic spaces.
Looks like you might have had a widow's walk up on top. Gotta view from up there?
Steam heat is superior to air. See about a new steam boiler.
Is that a usable fireplace? I used the old stack, or the space where the old stack was after I removed to get ducts and air return to the attic space, you might see if there is a closet or back of a closet to get where you want to go. Nice house,
Thanks. We purchase and moved in last Jan. This is our first holiday season here, so everyone's pumped. (4 kids, 8,5,2,4 mos!)
The existing chimney is used as a vent for the boiler. That is an option to lose the bricks and use the chase. We have a cool laundry chute from upstairs all the way down that I am willing to sacrifice for the heat run.
My thoughts about a unit in the attic would eliminate the need for a chase from the basement, therefore saving the beloved laundry chute!ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Steam heat is out of fashion, but I live with it quite comfortably. With a programable thermostat and new valves all around, the system works fine.
If you are detemined to get rid of the steam system, however, how about converting to forced hot water? You can keep the existing radiators, and with today's PEX tubing, snaking new lines would be less destructive to the interior than running ducts.
Whatever you do, don't put a boiler in the attic!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I like the steam heat. My main driving force for forced would be gaining more usable space in place of every radiator and the 2 250 gallon oil barrels downstairs. I may be better to get a gas fired boiler, though, huh?ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Oh man. Why does everyone else have the cool houses?
Please don't tell me you have acreage too.
Sorry, no experience w/steam heat. I did have gravity feed w/an old octopuss in the basement. Original which was converted from coal to gas. Heavier than heck to remove.
Santa baby, put a Manlift under the tree,
for me. Been an awful good girl <g>
Thanks.
No acreage. We live in the middle of a small town of 800. Kids walk to school. Nice little community.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Have you looked into geothermal? We have quite a bit of that here,,sounded odd at first, but the more I hear, the more appealing it is becoming..just a thought.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I'd be interested. I certainly don't know anything about it. Where would I check into it? What did you have in mind?ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Me either..BUT, a customer of mine has the set up..I GUESS a ground loop hydronic..fed into a "normal" heat pump type forced air system...I dunno..not there yet w/my space..lets dig together and find something?All I know is..I fed a 1/4 cord of wood in the last day..and my house is cold..LOL
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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OK. When I get some time I'll post a thread and do some other research.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Me too..(crazy here).
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Oh man. Why does everyone else have the cool houses?
If those are original windows, combine that with no insulation in the walls and it ain't gonna look nearly as charming when they get February's gas bill.
(but yeah...it is kinda neat looking house)jt8
Nice house. I had an old one with the same steam heat. We went a small boiler about the same floorspace as a water heater and just ran hot water. New technology doesnt require steam anymore. We did it all ourselves with no previous experience at all. Ductwork takes up valuable space you probably dont want to part with in an old house.
Thanks
Welcome, too. I notice it's one of your first posts. You mean you eliminated the steam boiler and continued to use the radiators and pipes?
My thoughts for forced are to get central air incorporated as well.
Welcome again.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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IMO, steam heat rocks.
One point though, if you are considering going to hot water to your existing radiators, you must have a two pipe system.
Often steam is a single pipe feed with a drip condensate return.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Good point. My existing is a two pipe system. I am dying to do lots of upgrades to several rooms, like biult up crowns, a coffered lid, etc, but I hesitate just in case we do tear out all the piping. I just don't want to try to patch everything up again. Every room in the house has the 2 pipes shooting up through.
I grew up on a wood stove in the basement, with one duct running to the bottom of a big open stairway. Pretty good sized old brick house. My folks still use the system. Boy, them walls on the far reaches of the house sure got cold some nights. Steam heat is a good quality heat that, I think, gets in and reaches you right in the bones to warm ya up. ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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I was working with my son at a clients house this morning. He is a physics proffessor and has a one pipe steam system in his house. I have learned everything there is to know about steam heat and more from him.
They could well afford to replace it with something more modern, but they like it.
My son remarked to me as we passed by a hissing vent: " there's something about that sound that just makes you feel warm". I then reminded him that his nanny and poppy's house had steam heat also.
FWIW to you, I think you have an awesome looking house. I personally would concentrate on making it nice while staying within the bounds of what is achitecturally correct to your structure.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric-
Thanks, much appreciated. I've got so many ideas. It is a huge priority for me to try to keep things "as they should be". This winter I'd like to replace the plastic shutters with authentic homemade wood ones.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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You should check out heatinghelp.com. It's dedicated to steam, hot water and radiant heating. Mostly populated by the pro's, but many homeowners like us as well.
A nice group of people, willing to help you.
Our house, slightly smaller but similar, became a duplex at one time so it has a smaller high efficiency gas furnace in the basement and another in an attic dormer. The center part of the attic is finished and part of the conditioned envelope The attic unit draws return air through a large vent at the bottom of the door in the 2nd-3rd floor stairwell up to the return on the third floor knee wall. The four rooms and bath on the second floor each have a ceiling mounted register and there is one third floor register at the opposite end of the room from the return. The basement unit made use of 4 existing resisters plus a couple more were added to even things out or to increase the airflow capacity.
I for one have gotten to like the system of independent control and redundancy. We run only the unit on an occupied floor, so at night the main floor goes down to 60 and during the day usually only the main floor unit is on. For your application, the ducting would be much simpler than having to run ducts from the basement to the third floor. We have a benchseat on the front wall of the third floor and an insulated 10" duct runs through it to supply the other side of the upstairs.
I am on the fence re: central air with this system since it would require two small units at about $1500 a pop to do the whole house. Our climate is mild enough that running 4 different small zoned window AC's is enough to keep us comfortable. I had separate circuits put in near each window that would likely have a window unit. And since window AC units are under $80 these days, it is an attractive option.
Nick-
What you describe is basically what I was thinking. This summer we used a couple larger window units and they did pretty good for the two levels.
I like the idea of zoning the two or three levels. A house of any decent size just isn't that efficient, IMO, with only the one thermostat.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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I'm not sure how the long term economics work out. I would guess that we use somewhere between 60 and 75% as much gas as we would were we heating the whole house all the time. Since our gas bill for a heating season is about $500, I'd guesstimate the cost for using one furnace might be $150-300 more each year. So one might hit the breakeven point in 7-12 years assuming $2000 for the additional furnace. But if gas keeps going up, the breakeven point might be even sooner. I do know that our annual bill here in 2200 sq ft of 2-1/2 stories was less than 1400 sq ft of 1-1/2 story bungallow with a whole-house conventional furnace. The heat is basically off downstairs from 11 to 7 each night, and off upstairs from 9-7 each day. I can crank on the upstairs heat after a shower without toasting the rest of the place.
I hate scorched hot air.
My house, 2500 sq, civil war era, had a new high eff. FHA system when we moved in.
The AC is nice, but the heat sucks...so I went with a condensing MZ boiler (http://www.mzboiler.com)and bought salvaged rads for the entire house, piping everything in pex.
Heats my DHW too.
I run it on constant circulation in the winter, nice even heat. Runs for 35 mins every 3 hrs when its 35 deg. out....
My advice is to see about converting your 2pipe steam system to hot water. It would save you removing a sh9tload of 300lb rads, having to paint behind them, sanding the floors under them, etc.
Plus you will be comfortable-and you can do radiant heat when you start to remodel...
The logic that "well, we want AC, so might as well have heat too" is the worst compromise you can make in your house, IMO.
Homer:
Keep the old radiators, plumb with PEX, high-efficiency boiler. I love it! What an elegant approach!
Do you have multiple zones? How are those set up? I imagine if you wanted to run a couple of loops of in-floor heat for, say, a kitchen or bathroom, it would be no big deal.
I'm working on one job where something similar is being done, but the boiler is basicly a big gas-fired hot water tank with a circulator.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
At first, I got sucked into having a bunch of zones, 1 per floor plus a radiant loop on its own zone. I prepped it for a bunch of future radiant zones too.
Which worked, but my return water temps were always above 127deg, which meant that my pricey condensing boiler wasnt actually condensing. (turns a 96% eff. boiler into an 86%)
After talking with my MZ sales guy, he got me to open all the zone valves manually except for the 1st floor, which became my master zone, and then go to constant circulation. what that does is better harness the thermal mass of the cast iron rads and gets my return water temp down.
Then it was a matter of balancing the system with the valves to each rad from the boiler room.
An appraiser buddy of mine says that hot water or steam hear are automatic add-ons to appraised value.
Language is my second language.
No kidding?! When we were appraised, I assumed the lack of central air was a downfall. Maybe more so the lack of AC than central heat.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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Am I misunderstanding you? I thought you said that you have central heat in the form of an old steam boiler. If that's correct, then the only appraisal ding you'd get for that would be deferred maintenance on the heat system. You probably already know that a new boiler would likely be 1/8 the size of the old one.Language is my second language.
Yes, the house has central heat. I just didn't consider it that way. I assume the ding was for no central AC.
My current boiler is fairly big, so I'm sure some space could be saved. One thing I will do is go from fuel oil to city natural gas. Some might say the oil is cheaper or more efficient, but I'm already tired of the smell and having to worry about keeping the tanks filled. Not to mention the space the 2 250 gallon tanks use up!
BTW, this boiler measures 24'' x 24 x 48 tall. I'm really not sure what a new one measures.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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That's pretty small already. I was imagining the converted-from-coal monster boiler I once remodeled around.Language is my second language.
Nice house. It would be great to see some colour added to the outside. That house has some nice details that would look really sharp with one or two good trim colours.
BTW with all this talk of allternitive heating systems whats the status of the insulation in that place? Adding insul has a better return on investment than new heating systems usualy do. Also not to dis the good advice you have gotten here but you may want to check out http://www.heatinghelp.com
How about adding a space pak A/C system?
Nice house. It would be great to see some colour added to the outside. That house has some nice details that would look really sharp with one or two good trim colours.
Thanks. Actually, the subject of sprucing the exterior is a planned future thread. The wood siding in in excellent shape overall, but the window trim is poorly wrapped in white. I would like to replace the metal with a better color. Shutters are planned, and also some of the frieze and corners. The paint is ini good shape, so I've got time to chhose colors.
Please feel free to pass along any ideas on a good color scheme. We (the missus) were thinking along the lines of something with cranberry shutters and/or trim. I've seen some houses of similar style with a darker gray with white trim. I like that, too
No insulation in the walls, and the attic floor is fairly packed. The windows were a mid grade vinyl replacement type about twelve years ago. I'll check out the link. Thanks.ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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i'd look at doing a 92% furnace in the basement so that helps with any flue problems[you can just exit out the side in the rim joist].run all the ducts to the first floor where you can access the basement. then go upstairs and put in a 80% furnace [the heat from the first floor is going to rise and help with the 2nd floor] and drop right over to each room.this is the exact setup i have and the only problem i have had is ,the attic furnace only ducts out to 3 rooms. so there is to much air turbalance going on.i've got to come up with something to help that ,thinking maybe 2 ducts per room. i'm not sure how important it is to everyone else but around here you need air cond.and that means forced air and ducts. larry
When my parents bought a hobby farm many years ago, my father had three of his contractor friends look at the ca 1910 farmhouse on it. The first two said "Tear it down!" The third said "Insure it and then burn it!" (Dad had some "interesting" friends.)
(He ended up spending $14K gutting and rebuilding a house that appraised at $4K before, $35K after. This was ca 1966.)
At least your options are a lot more attractive.
Hi, Hook. I'm not a professional, just a part time 'mudler, but I like researching most of the stuff I work on. I do like your house, but I'd probably be afraid to open the oil bill in winter. ;)
I agree with you on a single thermostat not being accurate for a whole house. Suddenly you find its 80 degrees on the 2nd floor and 60 on the first floor.
The heating/cooling story is an interesting one. I think most people prefer the radiant type heating methods over forced air (from a comfort point of view)... in which case a new boiler would probably be the best choice. BUT... you need the air ducts to put the standard central air unit in, so you either have to run a dual system or switch over to forced air.
Sounds like you have a house full of kids, so budget is probably a key concern. In which case a new boiler for the heat and window AC units would probably work out best. This assumes that the steam is able to keep the house comfortable (my sister's hot water rads have trouble keeping indoor temp over 60 when its under 0 outside).
If you're throwing money around, you can combine the radiator heating with ductless AC units (different styles available). I had researched this option for my sister about a year ago. I don't remember a huge amount about it, but am attaching a couple pics that show what the units look like. I think the inside unit is maybe around a foot wide. Instead of ducts, it uses pipe... maybe 3-4"? Ductless also allows you to zone AC. The biggest drawback is the price. Costs more than standard AC.
My natural tendency is to get a bigger engine rather than reducing load, so something I always have to remind myself is that insulation typically gives the best bang for the buck when it comes to comfort in an old house. It keeps the warm air indoors in the winter and helps keep the hot air outside in summer. So finding insulation contractors in your area that could fill those walls might be an early step to look into. Even the attic insulation could likely be improved on.
Are you in WI? An air-source heat pump is probably not a good idea. Air-source heat pumps really have to work hard to draw heat out of below-zero outside air.
A better heat pump method would be a geothermal heat pump. They can be used successfully in most any application. Here's a govt link for them with lots of informative side-links:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumerinfo/heatcool/hc_space_geothermal.html
I believe geothermal heat pumps are considered the most efficient systems available. Geothermal can be used for hot water and/or forced air. It is capable of heating and (with forced air) cooling. It requires only electricity to run (say goodbye to the oil/nat.gas bill).
There are a variety of manufacturers. The link below is for one of them.
http://www.waterfurnace.com/content.aspx?section=residential&page=products
The primary drawback to geothermal is price. Tends to be one of the more expensive options, so you would need to stay in the house for several years for it to pay itself off.
Whatever you do, keep up updated! We like old houses, and it sounds/looks like you got a good one!
Edited 12/7/2004 6:24 pm ET by JohnT8
Wow, thanks for the wealth of great info. This also goes to everyone else. I am in WI with plenty of kids. It's nice because we have a corner lot with the only sidewalk the one to the front porch. Very little shoveling!
Those links are useful. Things have been busy, so time hasn't been good to do much research. I am very interested in the geothermal systems.
Thanks again!
ArynADH Carpentry & Woodwork
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