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buz
Just based on what little info you gave (which was plenty to know this job is worth at least $50.00 per sq. ft.) this guy should be tickled to death at 50k.
20k or 30k is unrealistic even in N.E. Ok. Our costs sound pretty comparable to James and MDM area. It’s been my experience you should always talk bottom line for any method of payment. Especially if it’s a friend. His idea of the finished cost might be a ploy to guilt you into gining him a break on the finished cost of the project. After all it’s only your time and labor. Thats always negotiable is’nt it.
Good luck resolving this one.
Replies
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I Know - I know - it's been through the mill here a hundred times before.
Well - I've just finished a modest second story addition (about 1000 sf) for my friend and accountant. I was given the job for t&m plus - was never asked for an estimate until after the first monthly invoice. I told him I would be surprised if we could keep it under 50k and he replied - wow - I thought it would be closer to 20 or 30k. Now after three months of construction he has run out of money and is whining that I have ripped him off. He still needs cabinets, countertops, misc trim and carpet.
So - my question is - what are you guys getting for price/sf. This job is at about $50/sf - is rocked and painted inside and buttoned up (finished) outside with andersons (15 of them) and stk channel cedar outside. Also included is about 5% of the cost going for rot repair.
So - at $50/sf - am I out of line? I feel like a lowballing scum bag at that price and he is whining.
See attachment for quick elevation sketch and some notes.
Straighten me out you guys.
Thanks - Buz
*It's really hard to long distance guestimate on your project, but I'd have to say you are way under the average costs, especially in the S.F. area. Here in my area, that job would go for around $50 to $60 a sq ft (turn key) but we are extremely cheap here in the building and remodeling costs. Remodeling jobs are always higher than new building (in my area anyway) because of the extra work involved (demolition, tie ins, etc...) Being a second story addition, and the cedar siding would make the cost factor high. Type of roof covering and pitch would also add to the costs.To give you an example, a brand new custom home (NOT spec house) in the 2,500 to 3,000 sq ft range would cost approximately $135,000.00 to $150,000.00 (large lot included) These figures are approximate, and are a little different for each builder, but not by much. This is a single story home, brick exterior with some vinyl on the gables. Nice house. If the job was done professionally, and the guy had no idea beforehand what this project would possibly cost, then you have a serious problem. I could be smart ass and tell you that you didn't do your job and get the guy some reasonable cost factors, but I would be way out of line, and dead wrong. The guy should have asked for a cost approximation if he was worried about going over budget. This whole thing sure sounds like a mess. I wish you luck in settling your differences with this guy, and I hope you have been paid in full.Let us know how this turns out.Just my humble opinionJames DuHamel
*I don't know your area but we're also pretty cheap as far as construction costs go here. Industry left, high unemployment, farming community - drought this year, yadda, yadda, yadda.Second story addition, 1K sq ft, lots of Andersens, built in cabinets for 20-30K. No Way!!!I just did a 350 sq ft sun room addition at ground level, all vinyl windows, vinyl siding, very little repair to house structure (maybe a day, no built ins for 26K. That was $74/sqft.Without having any details other than what you posted, I'd expect quite a bit more for this project.I know you already know this but you should have gone over price whether he wanted to or not. Thanks for posting your story, although I'm sorry it happened to you, I'd rather learn from your mistakes than my own.If you need confirmation of costs to show him you are on target, do a price breakdown directly from any of the remodeling estimators available. I'm sure they will show a cost higher than what you are charging.
*Of course economy of scale makes my small project cost more per unit. It also included tile, vaulted ceiling, exposed beams, and a foundation that you didn't have to worry about. However, I never did any roof tear off, never had to frame around existing plumbing and electric and got to work with my feet on the ground almost the whole time.If you've got a pic, post it. I love to see other's work. If it's a clear picture, maybe I'll put it on my web site and claim it was mine :)
*Hey James, Your area is a little higher than mine. Here you could get 2500sq ft new on 2 ac lot for about $115,000. Isn't it strange how prices vary within a few hundred miles let alone from state to state?
*buz - On the subject of building costs a great rule of thumb is that there are no rules of thumb.It's also, like real estate, location, location, location. Even the difference of 100 miles, for instance from South Jersey (some say a different state, Ryan) to Princeton, which is definitely a different world. We are definitely at full employment! Your 1000 sf addition here would probably have cost $100,000 - $125,000 to build in 'stock' quality construction.Another thing to keep in mind is how much distortion there is in $/SF prices! Don't believe anything you read as examples in magazines, especially if over 1 year old since lumber and other material prices have skyrocketed. Especially what the architect said it cost! After pre-qualifying this response with the above, here are some examples from our area, which we use for budgeting purposes (yes, real figures from real completed jobs):Simple interior renovation work (no additions): $70-$125/SFCustom renovation work (high end, K & B): $100-$180/SF plus add the cost of cabinets, appliances and countertops if other than laminateSimple additions (like yours): $100-$125/SFCustom addition work - we usually estimate as follows: - Areas without kitchen and baths: $160-$180/SF - Areas with kitchens and baths: $185-$250/SF plus add lump sum costs of cabinets, appliances and countertops (if other than laminate)- This takes care of the 'blip' effect of say, a client changing from nice laminate to blue pearl granite, which in a typical kitchen will add at least $7,500Other local economy examples: - Granite countertop, installed $80/$140/SF - Master plumbers - $63/hour - Carpentry time - odd jobs - $30-$50/hour - Carpentry time - billed by contractor - $35-$75/hour - Draftsman rates - $60-$75/hour - Auto mechanic charges at dealers - $80/hour - Range of home prices (typ.) - $225,000 - $2,500,000 - Avg. home price - $450,000 I would think that the SF bay area would be similar to some of the above, although it's interesting to compare notes. I don't see how you can get too far away from material prices from place to place, although certainly hourly rates will be different. Note that almost every example above is stated as a 'range.' I often do estimates that way because it acknowledges that choices that clients make and events that occur (material price increases) do affect the bottom line. It also keeps the focus off a single price, as in when initially asked by a client - what should that cost? At an early stage of a project is might be very reasonable to say $100,000 - $200,000 depending on the choices that you make. This can either lead to 'Oh, O.K.' or 'Why such a range? - a natural entree to a discussion of how the choices they make can affect the cost.People are always interested in time frame and budget, no matter how wealthy or nonchalant they may appear to be. It is always essential to discuss both from the outset and update them when there are changes. Prequalify them to make sure that they know what construction costs are. Find out if there is anything of particular importance to that particular client. When I have accountant for a client (I do), I feel a particular duty to 'account' for the project - that is their area of expertise. People tend to think about things in the way that best relates to themselves - usually within the context of what they spend most of their time doing.Anyway, I'm going on far too long but I really do sympathize with your situation, especially considering that it involves a friend. That could be a 'whole 'nother topic' couldn't it? Good luck -Jeff
*Buz - Oops I thought I saw a reference to S.(an) F.(rancisco) and looking carefully at your title block I see that it is in Oregon.Jeff
*Jeff - Yea - I see you aren't the only one to read " S.F." as San Francisco - I intended it to stand for sq ft. Sorry for the ambiguity. Anyway , I appreciate yours and the others input on this. I'm on the North Oregon Coast and we have very extremely divergent costs. For example - currently I'm doing a small rot/bug repair including siding on the south side, 8 new windows and a dutch door - ((again was not asked for a price(interesting)) - anyway - it'll wind up around 8-9K - very average little job. Now, if this same job was 100yards south I would be working on a multi-million dollar estate. Some areas "lots" will go for 200 - 400K and other areas the lot for "Joe Blow" will go for 40-50K.I've been in the business about 20 years and "know" the business fairly well, but sometimes I wonder about myself - like maybe one morning I woke and found I had contracted alzheimers in my sleep the night before. The customer's comments have been off handed and with a smile - enough to unbalance me though. Yesterday I had to talk with him about finishing a few things (windows, an attic access door, misc) and he was a little cold at first but warmed by the time we were done. At our next face to face I intend to nail this down. I can't afford for him to go around spreading misinformation about me. Really bugs me. It's a small closely knit area and rumor mills just fly around here.Again - thanks for the input - you and the other guys.Apparently I have not mastered attachments - sorry.Buz
*Hey Mad Dog,A while back I posted a thread about different housing costs around the country. Man I like to have had a cow! I can't believe how expensive some of the areas of the country are to buy a new house. I saw a show on t.v. one night about how the costs for older, used homes was getting outrageous. A 1,300 sq ft house in St. Louis was on the market for $250,000.00 This was an older home, slab, with wood frame and wood siding. I couldn't believe it.The trades here have been upping their prices over the last couple of years, and it affects the overall costs of a new home. Trac houses are still cheap here. A 2,500 trac house here, in a nice sub division goes for about $125,000 or less. The difference between my area and Houston (which is only 70 miles away) is growing. Really weird.James DuHamel
*buzJust based on what little info you gave (which was plenty to know this job is worth at least $50.00 per sq. ft.) this guy should be tickled to death at 50k.20k or 30k is unrealistic even in N.E. Ok. Our costs sound pretty comparable to James and MDM area. It's been my experience you should always talk bottom line for any method of payment. Especially if it's a friend. His idea of the finished cost might be a ploy to guilt you into gining him a break on the finished cost of the project. After all it's only your time and labor. Thats always negotiable is'nt it.Good luck resolving this one.
*Buz, your accountant doesn't seem to much of a handle on your income or costs? Shouldn't he have some clue from doing your books? Is he working for you for less than the going rate? When he hands you his bill is it negotiable? That feeling of "Did I get stupid in the night?" is a weekly deal for me. Joe H
*Joe - I do my own bookkeeping - he just does my year end taxes - I imagine he will go over my books with a fine toothed comb this year. And no - his bills aren't negotiable - at least I haven't tried yet - maybe I should and see what happens. Actually that isn't in my nature - besides if we gave each other percentage discounts - wonder who would come out on that?
*Jeff:I used to work in Monmouth Junction, just down the road from you. (Im assuming you are in Princeton)I've been trying to figure out how to get my old Princeton salary and my South Jersey living expences without a 4 hour commute.
*Buz:Sq. Ft. building costs here in Raleigh NC start at about 85$ for new construction - good quality custom homes - not fancy - not tract housing. That's heated sq. ft., crawl space house, and typically comes with an attached garage and a small deck or porch. That does not include the lot/land, but does include grading, concrete drive & walk, well & septic and minimal landscaping.If you end up having to walk, keep it civil, and don't get an attitude. Once the customer has more time to think about it, check around, and run the numbers some more, he will probably realize you were cutting him a square deal. Let us know what happens.