I have a question about painting the walls and ceiling in our bedroom. The house was built in 57 and was painted brown in the bedroom about 20 years ago. I think it was oil base paint since the paint was oil base when it was built. So I sanded and patched the walls and yesterday I primed the walls with KIltz II. I do not know if it is just that I am trying to cover a dark paint or if I put the kitz on to thin, but you can see through the paint. Like all the patch spots and over lap of the paint. So do I need to put a second coat of kiltz on or does it always look like that when covering a dark paint. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Wade
Replies
The Kilz I have applied has always seemed to be a little thin, with the background color showing through very badly. But don't forget that the Kilz is a stain blocker, and all it takes is a thin coat to keep wood sap from bleeding through.
When you're trying to cover a dark color, it helps to have the primer tinted to something clos to the final color. So for covering your brown, you could have tinted the primer tan. And there are better primers to use for covering old paint, ones that do a better job of hiding the old color.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Well I guess we can help one another.
First, you might want to check to make sure you arent dealing with lead paint. Anything pre 1979 is a risk. If you have a family there everyone maybe exposed through the lead dust even before your sanding. The paint breaks down from friction from windows and doors, then you vacuum, and it is broken down more, and capable of going through the vac filter and out the back in much smaller particles then the were originally.
As you know, lead causes CNS damage and organ damage through the whole body... after its routine some of the metal lodges in the bone and can resurface later.
Get lead certified if you have a risk, and you plan on continuing lead disruption, it will show you how to work properly.
As for your paint question, primer is a special formula with a high amount of binder, or glue to seal the wall. It is common that it would look more transparent then topcoat. You can do a test with 2 coats of your topcoat to see if it will cover. It is possible that you may need more, but I dont think I would use the primer. If you feel that the primer has an unbroken surface, it should be plenty.
-zen
Im going to add a link to a more complete answer I did a few weeks ago... if I can find it.
Edit: go to post 16 for more info in primer-
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=57661.1
Edited 5/9/2005 9:40 am ET by zendo
I did not even think of the lead. I am not sure if it is or not, but would not the kiltz seal it and there be safe or do I need to remove it. There is not any unbroken coverage of the primer it is just that it is so transparent. I was just not sure if it was not supposed to be that way. The primer looked so thick and then covered that way I was concerned that I did not apply it corectly. Thanks for the help.
Wade
Dont know about Kiltz II. But I would go over it with bins primer, (Stain blocker with shellac) It should cover it pretty good. Then paint.
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I dont want to totally freak you out, but if there was lead, your dry sanding may have made it airborne. If the surface was undamaged before, there isnt much risk, but thats as long as you dont disturb it.
There is a chance that some of the lower layers may have had lead, but you didnt cut into them.
Ill get you a link so that you can get lead certified. It only takes a day, and if you have interest in renovating it definitely helps.
Im going to give you links to threads that have talked about lead as well.
The best thing you could do is have a testing company in your area come out and do an x-ray test of all the walls, trim that you want to work. They can tell you if and where the risk is.
-zen
There is an article on lead safe in September 2004 of Journal of Light Construction, if you dont know anyone that gets it, you can order the back issue or article on their website.
For a lead safe class in your area: http://www.paint.org
-zen
Lead thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/find/findRedir.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&mg=5BB70F3B-8F8F-47B1-895B-907B0622E731
Edited 5/9/2005 10:25 am ET by zendo
Zendo,
Aren't there special primers for covering lead based paint? I seem to recall reading (on BT prolly) that it's safer to seal it away then to try to remove it, especially when DIY.
As long as the surface is unbroken, and there arent adhesion problems on lower layers, it is smarter to leave it and paint over. If there is flaking or crackle that cant be stabilized, adding another layer isnt going to help much, it would just be a very short term "band-aid"
If restoration is the purpose, or there are 20 coats of paint softening all the trim work you can do the work.
The method just involves more prep, safety and specialized equipment to protect yourself and not to leave dust when you are finished.... it goes everywhere, worse then drywall dust, and you cant see it.
ex- Respirator, hepa vac, dust attachments, sealing off areas, working wet.
-zen
there is, one is made by California Paints and called Fiberlock http://www.fiberlock.com/800600/prodserv.htm
it's a good product, I've used it, very goopy compared to regular paint and you have to lay it on really thick (8mil) per instructions. Because of this, it doesn't go very far (about 1/4 as much coverage as a regular paint per gallon)
Do you think that if it is lead base paint that I will be okay since it is covered with kiltz and I will not be disturbing it. I do not think that I got down to the original paint. I only sanded it enough so the primer would stick to it and over the patched holes.
Wade
You currently dont have long term exposure. If the topcoat had any lead, or if the abrasive cut into lead layers, there could be an elevated lead level in the house/ room. Hepa vac, and wet mopping anything you didnt paint would help. A tester can also swab the floor and window sills and tell you what the lead level is.
Dont get to worried, but since I figure you have a pretty good running knowledge of what your blood pressure usually is, and thats one symptom, you could check to see if it is spiked. Dont forget, since you are all wound up now your nerves are going to throw that off too.
If you got some exposure and you dont normally, it would probably be like if you used enamel paint, or oil poly and breathed it all day. Its living in the mess that becomes dangerous.
-zen
Ok thanks and besides my wife says I am to mean for much to bother me anyway.
Wade
my wife says I am to mean for much to bother me anyway.
Better change the batteries in your hearing aid. What she said was .... you don't mean much, go away and don't bother me.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I all ways wondered about that.
Wade
If it were me, I'd recoat with a higher-density primer (like Behr's acrylic latex enamel undercoater) to ensure that the variations don't telegraph through the final paint.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I did what Phil suggests and found it worked well. We primed first with a coat of white pigmented shellac from Zinnser to seal stains, crayons, stenciling, etc. and then primed with Fresh Start. We had lots of very dark colors. If I were doing it again though, I would tint the primer gray. Regular primer (as opposed to shellac) is flater and seems to allow better paint coverage. The paint can 'slide around' if the only primer is shellac.
One coat of primer, two coats of quality paint, then, and only then, do you check for adequate coverage.
As someone stated here, primer is not intended to "cover" dark color, but to stop stains, marks etc from transmitting through the new paint. Primers do not contain even 1/2 of the color pigments found in paint, but they contain (as stated here before) lots of "sealers".
If you are priming just to help cover dark colors, you do not need primer. You will be better off using regular left over (or OOPS) paint in any off-white, pastel, or lighter shade.
Again, you will not know how the finished wall will look until 2 (TWO) coats of the final color are applied.
or does it always look like that when covering a dark paint
It can. Unfortunately for you, the only way to know is to put a top coat on it. Which may want another top coat to finish--or not. If you are hiring a painter, you don't want to paint-until-it-covers, obviously. But, if you are doing it yourself, and you need a second coat, or another quart or two of the paint--it's not really that big a deal.
I'm just glad you did put Kilz down first (would have been just as happy with BIN, for that matter)--trying to cover dark paint with light without primer just winds up being an exercise in frustration.
If you have kids, might want to have them spend a few nights away from the house and run a good HEPA filter-
Dust from sanding poses a bigger danger for lead poisoning in children than do paint chips; a tiny amount of lead in a kid's system can cause serious brain and nervous system devlelopment problems.
Read the other posts for good lead paint procedures; the wall paint may very well have had lead; ceiling paints tend to have less, gloss trim and exterior more, with wall paint (usually flat) somewhere in the middle.
Having said that, there is a chance the old wall paint doesn't contain lead; get an XRF (x-ray flourescence) test to make sure; if no lead, no need to worry about all that-
If you don't have any children or a pregnant wife, don't worry, because we all know your're too far gone anayway :)