Eight years ago I built a new home using the best windows Pella offered at the time. Casements, sliders, and one picture window. All windows were finished as per Pella’s instructions. Two years ago my 4 x 4 picture window had to replaced because the entire bottom rotted away. The finger jointed wood behind the cladding was gone.
This summer, after three of my casements would no longer work, I checked them all and found six out of twelve had bad rot(need replaced) and three more on the way. After a service call, the Tech’s found all three of my sliders are showing rot from the inside and need replaced as well. I was informed Pella would graciously offer me a discount for replacement windows(labor not included). I am sorry I put them in my home. I see why Pella only offers two years of warranty on the frames.
After looking through this forum, I see other people with the same problem. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions.
Thanks, Jack
Replies
Not that this will help much, but I have all Pella windows and have had no problems yet as they are not that old. What was the flashing detail etc. on your install? How did the water get to them?
SJ
Rot has nothing to do with Pella. It has everything to do with how they were installed. Applied to masonry wall? Did the installer use Sill Seal? Flashing? Roof Overhang? Too many variables.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris,
I would normally agree with you as a general rule for most windows. But Pella operates outside the box! They could prove you wwrong on this one. They have already agreed to cut him a deal, implying some problem on their part is at least possible.
He reports that the wood is gone from behind the whole bottom. Now, i don't know for sure of the bottom means sill or bottom sash stile and rail, but I have seen poor quality work and seals in Pella products.
My question is whether the sill is integral Pella or locally applied sill and exterior casing. This is one of their options and it could effect the finished product and longevity, but from the fact there is a clad finish, I presume that it is all Pella.
The most common place for any rot in windows is at tbottm of side jamb and the ears of the sill. When there is rot in the sash itself this soon, it is almost certainly the manufacturers fault, IMO.
I am no fan of Pella but not totally prejudiced. I am giving them a chance to bid on the custom windows for this latest job I am on and I went over some of my concerns with the rep. One is that I have heard of door jamb bottoms rotting out quickly. I'm not sure that I head a satisfactory answer.
All window manufacturers switched to a water based preservative in about '87 or '88 due to govt interference in the industry. Marvin and Andersen had to settle a lot of claims with help from their preservative suppliers for problems like this. It raises the questiuon if Pella has found a suitable product to treat their wood with or not..
Excellence is its own reward!
What manufacturers choose to do with warranty claims is not indictive that there was or was not rot attributable to the window or to installation.
That kind of logic would say that everytime a manufacturer denied a claim, then it must have been installation error.
All I am saying is that water must have gotten to the window sill. Pella didn't put it there. Rain did. If the window was properly flashed, no water would have gotten to the sill.
I am prejudiced, I must admit. I grew up a few miles from Pella Iowa. But my answer would be the same for any window manufacturer. The homeowner should be glad I wasn't employed as a risk manager for Pella, 'cause I would have denied the claim.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
You've realy got me confused now. With Pella or any other window, the flashing goes at the head stock and casing to keep water from getting into the wall, frame and jamb assembly. It does nothing whatsoever to keep the sill from getting wet. Every sill on every window I have ever seen channels the water right over the sill and it gets wet. Nothing to do with flashing at all.
the flashing keeps water from above getting into the window cavity but every window in the world gets water blown against it no matter hpow well flashed it is from above..
Excellence is its own reward!
I would have to agree and therefore if the window frame itself is sealed/painted it should withstand contact with the weather. Only if water gets behind the window, into the framing would rot result. JMHO.
Keep us informed on this. Your rep can't get you a better deal than a "deal" on replacements? Have you contacted pella directly? And you said these were clad? What part of the country are you in?......and the weather?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
We've had this problem as well. On higher end projects, we have spanish cedar sills and casing applied, over-size the R.O., put in a clapboard pitched to the exterior and ice and water shield the rough sill. The spanish cedar doesn't add a huge expense since the final window assebly is done locally (Methuen, I think). Is this overkill? Well, we haven't had a problem with this configuration and it's a heck of a lot cheaper than repairing a window or 20. Plus, there's something just wrong about the finger-jointed stock.
wonder what the cost diff to Pella is on untreated finger joint versus treated wood, for the frame wood?
ot a lot of wood there.
Finger joints deal with strength issues. Wood is wood. A finger jointed wood member won't rot any faster than the same species not finger jointed. Right? Wood rots because of moisture. Use of sill seal, builders felt, proper flashing, and a good overhang will make windows last 100 years. Or,you can the finest hand made window and install it improperly and you won't get 5 years out it.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Awhile back there was some info on some failure of the treatment of the frames by ? I'll go back to work this afternoon and daydream if I can remember where I read this info. There were settlements and lawsuits and such so I'm supprised that no one here remembers it. I'll try and find it tonite.
Clay
Clay, the problems and resulting suit I remember was re. Marvin. PPG was alleged to have provided the wrong or faulty preservative that led to premature rot of their windows, clad or unclad wood. The time period for the treatment was around 88/89. I was contacted by a friend regarding their windows maybe 4 yrs ago. The sash and frames of their casements were gone beyond repair. Some you couldn't open for fear of the glass falling out. I thought a bit of owner neglect might have cause this but oddly, the rot seemed to come from the inside out. We called marvin and they sent out a rep. who agreed that premature rot had occured and that Marvin would be in contact. The whole process took maybe 2 months from the time of the initial contact. Early on, Marvin would pay for changing out the whole unit as well as supplying new windows. A very bold fix on their part. However, after they lost their suit against PPG, they retracted that fix and were offering maybe 25% off the cost of the window, no labor.
I have clad Marvin casements in my house installed in 89. I've been hoping that maybe I'm not going to be a part of the problem.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
The problem you are referring to concerned Marvin units with a wood exterior that had been coated with the Flexacron coating. There was a problem with the preservative / Flexacron combination that led to the rot. The clad units were not affected by this.
carpenter in transition
I built a new house in 1990 using Pella casement windows. They are aluminum clad
and the insides are clear pine that are stained. The windows were beautiful. As
time went on, I have four different window units that are showing signs of wood
rot. The wood on the bottom of the window in the dining room is completely gone.
I have been around with Pella (Corp.) and the best they would offer is 30% discount
on replacement units. I have used Pella in the past, and highly recommended
them. Now I simply use them as a display for Pella products, and show them to
everyone that visits my home! No more Pella for me! You're not alone with this
problem jaybee.
Now the aluminum clad issue could make the difference. It could be possible for water to get between the aluminum and the wood, BIG PROBLEM! HMM?
i've got no experience with pella windows.
but i do know from my own experiences that theres a big diffence between a poorly designed window and a good one.
the trouble is you don't often find out until its too late.
i've seen conservatories from the manufacturer we used to use with rotten sills and door bottoms after less than 5 years.
most of the reasons for this could be easily rectified at the time of manufacure, but the company doesn't want to know.
the main trouble is that many windows are not designed to get any water out once it is in.
if the rebate is sloped and ventilated then any water that does get in will easily escape.
if the rebates arer flat then it just sits there. and hence the rot.
i don't know how the glass is fitted if it is beded in silicone or glazing putty then as long as they are fitted well the units should easily last 20 years and the water getting in is not an issue.
at a guess i wouls say that the reason for your failures are a combination of poor design and not so good installation. but its difficult to say.
i lose probably 50% of jobs because people think my prices are too high because they imagine they are comparing like with like.
but i'd rather not do it than have to woory about how long the things are going to last.
aleks
ps sorry to go on
I just sold a home I built in '87 that I used Weathershield windows in and had a similar experience. There were both double hung and casements. Only the DH were a problem. They were all wood with 5/4 x 5 casing & because they were factory primed I didn't know they were finger jointed. After about 12 years while painting them for maybe the 3rd time I saw a wavy sill on an 8' picture window. I cut thru that flexible wood surface and found a rotted center that was completely dry. I checked the other windows and found the same on 11 others. I could get no sattisfaction or even a reply from Weathershield. I found that I could remove the sill which was fitted to slide into the bottom of the window jamb, so the replacement of these sills was simple after milling up replacements from some clear 6/4 pine. If replacement had been more involved I would have been persistant in chasing Weathershield. It was clear from all 12 of these windows that water must have been trapped within the stock prior to its assembly! I was happy that my cure was as easy as it turned out.
I later heard that Marvin had the same problems. This caused me to never again use either Marvin or Weathershield for windows. The house that I just finished for myself has vinyl clad Andersons and the prices for these maintenance free windows seems like a bargain.
Pif is right. Water gets into a window two ways: From the top and underneath. Flashing, sill seal, and installation will only stop water coming in from the sides, tops, and underneath. It will not stop water from penetrating the actual surface of the muntins and the top of the sill. So if the sill is not painted, yes it will rot.
But the unit is painted, water should bead off and run down the sill. I can not understand how a properly painted windown which sheds water can rot unless water is getting in from underneath. So I am back to poor installation issues.
I know when I am asked to install custom windows and doors, I like to ask for a say so in who makes them, what wood they are made of, and how they are made. Obviously, I flash them correctly. My choices are generally Red Wood then Clear Fir for a species, an agressive sill angle, and correct head and side flashing. Prime them twice; finish them two times and install. Even with sitting on masonry and stucco walls, with a three inch roof overhang, subject to 15 inches of rain in 3 months, I have not seen a failure. But these are custom windows and doors made by a local shop. They are easily double the price of your standard window and door.
Pella, Anderson, Marvin. Chevy or Ford. They are all the same to me.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
This tread makes a guy want nothing but vinyl!!!!
speak for yourself!!!!!!
aleks
kostello: I was joking about the vinyl. But, man! I hate to hear all this rotted sill stuff. I know alot of people with Andersen or Pella windows and never ahve heard a problem. It sure seems that if they are installed correctly and kept sealed on the outside with maintained paint, they should be fine.
I guess I would really like to think that to be the case, since I should be able to control those issues!
It's me again, the original poster. If I may add a few more points. It is not the sills that are rotton, it is the outer sash, usually the bottom piece. On more than one occasion the cladding has easily pulled off the bottom of the sash exposing the rot contained inside. It looks as though the bottom cladding was not properly applied/sealed during construction. So, when it rains (Toledo, OH), the water is trapped in the lower sash because of the three coats of polyurethane I used to finish the windows.
The fixed doors on my sliders are a different story. It appears that something is pushing its way out of the bottom of the door(nail, screw) and denting the lower cladding from the inside. On the inside the wood is warping. As a side note, our local Pella Distributor has been to my home at least 5 times for air infiltration problems on my bedroom door. They cannot fix it. I now use masking tape to seal the door on the inside for winter. The mildew only grows a fourth as much on the threshold.
I have digital pictures if anyone is interested.
I probably repaired 100 + windows this year and 10 doors with rot.95% of the rot is brickmolding or sills . I would say that most of this damage is from not caulking every year and painting every other year. If this seems excessive all you have to do is poor water on a three year old paint job and watch the water be absorbed.New wood windows use the fast growth lumber that has less dense wood fibers and far fewer rings. Lately I have noticed that local sash companies are using plastic lumber for exterior pieces which I think is a good idea.The sashes rotting is similar to the door and sidelights wood sections rotting this is harder to fathom but I think one of the causes is the wood checks and the water seeps into the cracks. One of my biggest gripes is the homeowners irrigation is spraying up against the house and not letting the wood dry out for whole seasons at a time. I like using epoxy to fill these cracks and getting it painted immediately.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Gee whiz, haven't you guys heard of pultruded fiberglass windows? Expansion and contraction is equal to glass (makes sense) and is very low. Stronger than aluminum, better insulator than wood, holds paint better than either. This is the same stuff as your ladder is made of. The future of windows, imho, if only we could educate the decision makers (wives) that wood, though beautiful, is yummy food for microorganisms.
Painted wood anywhere on the outside is a maintenance headache I don't want.
The finish and color fastness better be better than my ladders. Regaurdless of color all my ladders are faded. the process started within a few months of new. The cold can be disasterous to the ladder. Don't bang one it's cold. Having a 350# rated ladder break under load gets interesting. They seem to become brittle. Fine hairline cracks in the suface coating resembling a lig saw puzzle in the 1st year.....
If they are any thing like the fiberglass entry doors that I've delt with after a couple of years of exposure... No thanks..
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
The fiberglass window only come in white, so faded white is still white. Your feedback on breaking is interesting. Fiberglass entry doors generally aren't pultruded. Pultrusion ensures a low plastic content and high glass content.
whoa jaybee. I had mentioned having few problems with pella and the wonderful treatment from my local supplier if and when something occurs............well I'm talking the toledo distributor. Who has been handling your situation? I would surely direct their attention to the fine publicity they are receiving here. Again, I have consistently been supplied a good product and quality service. Your post surprised me.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
All,
I haven't been involved in buying or installing windows for a long time as I do mostly cabinet work now with a smattering of interior trim thown in.
About 4 years ago, when trimming windows on a renovation, I wound up in two meeting with homeowner, homeowner's lawyer, GC, Bonneville windows president, a window distrubuter and numerous others.
I demonstrated with a garden hose that the windows units not only were not waterproof, but literally channelled water running down the jambs through the sills and into the walls behind the siding, sheathing and flashing. The problem was design, pure and simple. The sills did not extend full length under the window jambs. Ganged double hungs had wide exterior mullions with an actual hole (un filled and un caulked) under them extending to the rough framing. This hole was hidden from view by the plastic ballast tracks. The wide mullions dammed the water over the hole funneling it into the wall. The homeowners settled out of court.
Within two weeks, I found myself repeating the scene, on the same house - this time with weathershield - but without the CEO. All the Weathershield French units had leaked during a rainstorm, one ruining the reclaimed chestnut flooring job in the family room. After demonstrating with a square that the aluminum threashold sloped toward the interior of the house (by their design) , I was able to get a crossectional view of the threashold from the factory rep. When I pointed out that it didn't match the one before us, he showed me that Weathershield had added an extension to the original extrusion, because the walls were 2 x 6 not 2x4. That, obviously, was where the water was pouring in. Weathershield was too cheap to have a full width extrusion made for 2x6 framing, and decided to rely on caulking. Caulking to prevent standing water from finding a passage. Caulking two pieces of metal that get stepped on every time someone goes through the door.
So this house, before it was even trimmed, had mold growing behind the sheet rock and rotting framing around and under the windows and ruined flooring at about $20.00 per sq foot.
Nothing was installed improperly.
Now when you add quick growth material, finger jointed material, gaskets instead of repairable, renewable glazing, narrow nailing fins, no pans or bituthane under doors and windows, no angle on the bottom of the RO, you in effect turn a house into a consumable item.
From what I've seen lately, I have to agree with Boris. If you want a waterproof wood unit that will last, you have to control its design and manufacture. Otherwise, go with vinyl and hope it lasts.
Clampman
One of my friends works at the local distributer(C#$%K-SN^%$#@SS) as a salesman. He tells me I am an isolated occurence. They have recently fired several higher ranking service department members, including the service manager. The new Service Manager is my primary contact. What I got was their best offer. I am contemplating renting a billboard near the business and posting blowups of my photos. Yes, I am that disgusted with Pella.
I have had over the last 30 years Pella in all my homes they were recommended to me by a friend of mine when I moved to this country.
On the first home I had the windows installed by a proffesional. Several months later a relative of mine in the building industry came over to the house to visit. He told me that the windows were installed incorrectly. I fought with the installer for several months and since I got no reponse on his part. I removed them and reinstalled them correctly. I even called the Pella rep so he could see the installed job and make sure it was done according to Pella specs. He told me that MY installation was done better then most proffessional job. These windows were wood with aluminum clad. The wood was painted every two years when I owned the home. I still keep in contact with the current home owner still no problems after 30 years.
In the home that I am remodeling right now I have installed also Pella windows. I will not install any things else. Since. every thing else is junk, that my opinion obviousely.
Just remember one thing wood rots only when it is in contact with water. If you have no water in contact with the wood it will not rot. Wood has to be painted in my opinion every two years.
And I agree with the above comments the windows have to be installed property.
Level, plumb, proper flashing and painting is a necessity if you do not want to have problems.
"Wood has to be painted in my opinion every two years."
That alone will rule out wood on my next home.
we in America need to stop using wood on the exterior of homes.
the wood window argument is filled with Ifs - if its dry, kept painted, level, flashed etc
sorta like the wood clapboard fans- clapboard is great if
if you get a piece that does not warp, knots do not fall out, you caulk the ends, paint all 6 sides, set the nail heads, paint it again, etc etc etc.
maybe we need fiber cement windows??
Stop using wood on the exterior of homes? MAN!
Wood is a renewable resource, plastic (oil), steel, or aluminum are not.
Heck, my father has 30 year old T1-11 crap in his house and not one sign of rot or delamination. Take care of it and it lasts.
Go to New England and view two hundred year old houses with original siding!
There is nothing wrong with wood only lazy people.
I like fiber cement siding or brick.
You can not spend your life maintaining wood. Or i guess you can.
I do historical renovations out here in California. We get about 15" of rain a year, but it is over 2-3 months. Termites love our wood.
There are two rules for me and wooden windows, doors, and trim. (1) Pick the right species; and (2) Maintain it. Follow those rules and windows and trim will last 100 years.
The right species for me is usually redwood. It machines fine, is rot resistant, and paints and primes like a dream. It will rarely rot. I realize that redwood is pricey, but it just refuses to rot. How much is that worth? You'll never buy another window, door, or trim again. Not ever in your life.
Maintaining is easy. Just strip the darn wood, prime it with a very high quality oil based primer (1-2 coats) and finish with 2 coats of latex. My paint jobs from the late 1980's in homes still look great. Yes, you'll spend between $25-30 a gal for quality paint, but you'll never paint again. The secret is in fastidious prep and the highest quality paint.
I don't think re-painting windows once every 10-20 years is an issue. Or you can buy vinyl c r a p, and re-purchase the windows every 10 years. Vinyl cracks and leaks, and then hold water in, like leaky boots. Pick 'em.
I agree that vinyl clad windows are c r a p. I don't think that statement is limited to Pella.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Exactly! Quality paint lasts!
in coastal sc the sun, mold and mildew do the paint in .
i have never seen a 12 year paint job
Interesting, the Pacific Northwest is a pretty wet place as well. Good paint lasts here, garbage is . . . well garbage.
What do you guys consider "good paint"?
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
Steve, excellent question. I have only gotten good paint by accident. Well, actually the last good paint was recomended to my father by a painter. Still going stong after 10 years. Other than that I have had some 5 year paint and some 10 year paint.
I too would love to hear a solid and consistent recomendation.
The "good paint" description is open for interpretation. I use mostly Sherwin Williams for exterior applications. Of course someone will say this is crap and another will swear by it. I used some this weekend......good stuff. Would the paint gods feel this is "good paint"?
Interior, I will allow my wife to choose from the higher end stuff at Lowes and HD if it has the "proper color palet for the room"........whatever that may be. I saw her looking through the Ralph Loren (heck I don't even know how to spell it) stuff and calmly turned her toward paint made by someone other than a clothing designer.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
The brand of paint doesn't matter. You want a high end paint. It is a product that you get what you pay for. There are no paint bargains. Expect to pay over $20 a gal for the good stuff.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Boris, My thoughts exactly.
Paint is pretty straight forward as far as getting what you pay for. I just wonder when people say "good paint" as to what they consider good paint......it is so subjective.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
I am a Sherwin Williams guy, not because of any brand loyality, only because we have a wholesale store nearby and they will mixup 5 gal buckets of the paint fairly quickly and work with me on colors. I don't have to wait in line with a family with two screaming kids in strollers why they decide which tint of Martha Stewart's paint they like (for 30 minutes). They have a terrific primer, one of the best, 'cause it really sticks to everything. It is also one of the most expensive.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I'm a S.W. guy myself, especially for exterior. I love their primer. Used it the other day as a matter of fact. I like there satin for trim better than any other. Ben Moore goes on nice though, and it is very consistent from gallon to gallon.
I have had the same experience at the two box stores of waiting in line for someone to admit they work in the dept. It gets worse than a deli counter sometimes.
SJ
Know a little about alot and alot about little.
You've seen 12 year old paint jobs there. You just don't recognize then when you see them.
As a matter of fact, I'll bet there are somne 20 YO paint jobs with old lead in oil paint that are just starting to look like they need to be renewed.
We've got a similar climate with ice and snow thrown in to the mix.
The painters here expect a minimum of 8-10 years even with the dumbed down paionts that the govt forces on us now. The paint purchase is only a third of the job. prep and application are the balance.
They use Ben Mooore or SW.
Excellence is its own reward!
If you like living in a house that looks like SHT, that is your choice. As for paint, buy good paint and paint once in 10 to 12 years. It has worked on T1-11 crap siding in the wet Pacific Northwest for over 30 years.
Ok, brick looks great if that is your style of home. And if you can afford it.
Hi,
I'm gratified to saee you certify my opinion that it was not the sills but the sash parts that were in failure. This was based on logical reasoning and past experience and reading of other similar failures.
Believe me, when a rep tells you that yours is a unique and uncommon situation, they are lying. That opinion is also based on past experience. You have heard from me and others here that your situation is not all that unique.
On to rectificatiopn - you are not dealing with a Pella rep directly, apparently, but with a rep from the retailer. Find a way to circumvent and go to the top.
Pella values good service. They way they encourage this is that eveyone in the distribution line from initial contact, thru sales, production and delivery is rewarded by bomuses. If there is a bonafide complaint from a client, for any reason, they all lose their bonus that month. That is how a rep explained it to me. So they are giving away T-shirts and stuff to make you feel generous about the time that the post-instalation survey is hitting you mailbox.
A new link they have recently added is that a tech-rep will visit the site post-installation to make sure the client ios happy with everything and to check on the installation or make any final adjustments needed. This can also record any bad installation procedures to let them out of the warrantee at a later datee, I suppose. I don't know when they began doing this.
All of that to say this, that in spite of the fact they send out a second rate, IMO, product the company itself wants to have you happy. You need to communicate to them directly somehow. The idea of sending a well crafted letter enunciating you trouble and mentioning the exposure they are letting themselves in for here is a good one. If the right person in the company reads this thread, he will reply here and contact you with a better offer than you have heard.
But that's just my opinion.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Jaybee,
I think you should post a couple pics. Even without them, if the lower rails of your window sashes ( or for that matter, anywhere on your window sash) are rotted, and those are clad sashes - then it is the manufacturer's responsibility to replace them. The problem is obviously that the seal is not sealing.
Unlike glazed windows, they cannot blame the failure on your painters for failing to lap onto the glass with paint.
I have a Pella Clad Slider that has done the same thing. The wood inside the aluminum has puffed up over the years pushing the aluminum out and causing it to scrape on the fixed panel as it goes by. But it is 30 years old. All the other Pella Clad casements are fine and operate as well as they did in 1970.
However, those windows are all constructed of very tight grained solid stock, and are in no way like new ones.
Similarly, the old double hungs on a house I used to own that was built in 1917 had zero rot anywhere, despite not having been painted since 1917. Much of the glazing had fallen out or been pushed out by ice, yet not a single muntin was rotted in the entire house. Nor sills, nor jambs. And it rains a lot in CT.
New wood rots faster than tight grained old growth. And finger jointed rots faster than solid stock because it is scrap from new growth and wasn't even good enough to make a straight board with. The grain goes every which way, shrinks and swells at different rates in different directions, and sops up moisture like a sponge. It has no place being anywhere in a window, unless perhaps it is an interior window inside a house in the Arizona desert.
There, I've had my rant for the day.
Good luck
Clampman
it sounds to me that if the glass is fiited in a drained system (which it probably is if the windows are clad) that there is a problem with the drainage holes which are there to let any water that gets into the rebate to run out.
see what a drained frame should be at http://www.dempseydyer.co.uk/timber/windowstechnical.htm
aleks
I personally think that clad windows s u c k. I think Boris was assuming the windows were standard wood, as did I. Knowing that they are clad, I would assume a manufacturing defect. The cladding is not bonded to the wood, and now traps water between the vinyl and the wood substrate, with no where for the water to go, except to sit there and cause rot.
I prefer regular wooden windows. I good prime and paint job will last 10 years minimum, longer than any manufacturer warranty.
Kelsey
But if you let it go 16 years like most busy homeowners and landlords, then you have a big mess to fix. Life is too short to paint wood. Period.
Kostello brings up a valid, although vague, point.
Anyone out there have any issues with all vinyl or vinyl clad wood windows? My biggest fear of them is the expansion and contraction rates of vinyl (sticking casements or worse, double hung?).
I wouldn't know, I only have wood double hungs.
Thanks for the input
And again, speaking of cladding. Are there issues with water getting behind the cladding? I like the idea of cladding as a method to avoid painting, however, paint is a good seal against the elements and is in your control. With cladding who knows. Any known issues with cladding?
Interesting discussion. One additional point - is there any chance that you have a problem with high relative humidity in the house, condensation and resulting high moisture content in the wood? It should be obvious (sweating windows, black mould in the corners and along the bottom of the pane) if condensation is an issue, but often this is ignored. Otherwise it just does not make sense that the wood is rotting from the interior side (which should be the dry side!).
The suggestion that the water was trapped during manufacturing does not make sense, 'cause it would fairly quickly leave the assembly, long before serious wood decay resulted. If not condensation from the interior, then the notion that water is getting into the wood from the exterior and is trapped, likely drying to the interior, is probably the best bet. Generalizing, most window problems come from bad details at the exterior.
To maybe zone in on the problem better, map out which exposures had the worst damage - look at prevailing winds/rains, sun exposures (considering overhangs and other shading effects), interior differences (bedroom vs. bathroom vs. kitchen, etc.
I would agree that, just because Pella is willing to do something for you, does not mean they are to blame. Isn't that also just customer service? Unfortunately for them, it didn't work....we all now know about your Pella problem, as I am sure lots of your friends are too.
I think I got 3 this time. Will try 3 more soon.
Ok, here are the last 3 of the same window. Seeing this, how many of you are interested in a Pella window?
jb, I have questioned pella's decision to place the side cladding under the bottom cladding. Is that the way yours were and do you suppose that's where the water entry came from?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I own Pella windows for close to 30 years now. I never had a problem.
The side cladding overlaps the bottom cladding. Are you sure you have Pella windows??????
I don't have them, but have installed them. The last bunch I put in as well as others a few yrs ago (if I'm remembering correctly) have the side cladding tucked into the bottom. It surprised me because it seems to fly in the face of common sense. 30 yrs ago I'm not familiar with.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I checked my friends Pella windows who were installed last year they are Pella windows and the side cladding overlaps the bottom cladding.
I am surprised that tour windows are the opther way around
I posted a new thread this moring about painting my pellas at 8:30 am and it hasn't shown up yet. How long does it take to post a new thread?
Ronko,
Interesting that you should bring up high humidity in a house.... My thought is that if that were the case then all of the windows would be effected. Or maybe the ones that were in just the right sun / shade spot would be most effected. But still, I think that there would at least be evidence of trouble on all windows.
My boss and I did a Pella install for a client (big bay window). No fun really to install and you know going in that they always sag (those stupid ineffective brackets they give you for the bottom). Anyway, the Pella guys had been to the house regularly on some other windows (recently installed by others) that were having extreme condensation on the inside pane. Then of course our window did the same. But not every window in the house did this (they were all Pella).
What's the cause? I have no idea. Maybe it's a bad seal between the sash and the thermal pane glass that leaks and water capillaries its way to the inside and then shows up as condensation on the inside pane. Maybe it's high humidity in the house that only shows up on windows that are in the perfect sun / shade exposure.
No I have no real answers... sorry. Just thought I'd add my own experience. Interesting problem though.
Rob Kress
By the way, saw the pictures one post down. Looks bad to me (like.... ah.... these are clad windows that are supposed to be exposed to the wind and weather and ah.... the cladding is supposed to keep the wind and weather from rotting the window out from under it....)
Jaybee,
I haven't read all the other 42 messages, but I can say Pella wooden windows suck! I've used a lot of their doors and windows and although not the best, they are better then most, but I will only use their clad products. A friend of mine just asked me yesterday if he could use my woodshop to fabricate a half a dozen new stills for pellas. Exactly the same problem for him to fix that you have outlined to be dealing with yourself.
Don
I've always mistrusted clad wood windows. I've always felt that by cladding wood on the outside of a heated house, the manufacturer was setting up a potential rot situation. Moisture (combined with fungi spores, of course) is what causes wood to rot. Warm air holds more moisture than cold air. If any warm air (and therefore water vapor) gets to the cold side of the wood you're going to have condensation of that vapor into liquid water. The nonpermeable cladding is going to hold it in the wood, not allowing the wood to dry to the outside. (Any water leaking past the cladding would be held in the wood as well.)
I grew up in a house in Michigan where the thermometer dropped below freezing sometime in November and didn't climb back out until March. We had wood windows (probably white pine) that were painted inside and out. The last time I saw them (about 25 years later) they were just as good as new. I never heard of anyone in that area having rotten window problems. Today we hear about this problem often. We also have lots of clad windows. Could there be a correlation? I tend to think so.
Of course, there are lots of other factors which might be involved. For instance, houses today are build a lot tighter with better vapor barriers. It just might be that more moisture is forced to exit the house through and around windows given today's construction methods. We also seem to have a bunch of amateurs installing windows these days. Right down the street is an example. The other day I saw a window installer putting vinyl flanged windows on a recently sheathed house without using any sill flashing or sealant. He was just nailing them to the bare OSB sheathing with regular bright nails. It will be interesting to see if the next sub in line does anything to improve on this installation. At least those vinyl windows won't rot! I didn't build the house I live in now (too busy at the time I bought it). The crew that installed the LP siding didn't use any trim around the windows on the sides of the house. Since there was no trim, why bother to use any flashing above the windows? When I replaced the LP siding last fall, I had to reframe around most of those windows. 2 X 6 king and jack studs were soaking wet and rotten. Some of those studs were missing the bottom 18 to 24 inches - just no wood left, rotten or otherwise. The house was 8 years old!
In summary, I would say that you probably have a combination of problems which range from poor materials (even poor quality cedar will rot) , new construction methods, unproven preservatives, poor installation and probably lots of other factors. The only consolation I can offer is that you're not alone.
what does lp mean?
Thank you
Louisiana Pacific