I generally do renovatins and additons but have been asked to frame in a 2 story 2,600 sq. ft. house with trusses.
I have a a crew of three including myself .
Is there a per sq. ft. price (Toronto Canada) for mdrange level home framing???
I have done a advanced search of the site but no real help.
George
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Yes there is, but it is dependant upon location.
Scarborough is roughly $32.99/sq.
Rosedale $43.19/sq.
Figure out your costs to determine your own numbers.
So - you all price it by the 100 sq ft? Interesting... What state/country do you live in? If you plan to hang out you might want to fill out your profile a bit.
I wish I could get those numbers for framing.
I took the OP's question to be labor only, your figures must be including more than that, I assume?_______________________________________________________________
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per foot..
one a year would be fine..
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worse...
was suppose to be up yur way last week and another place this weekend.. had to bow out....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
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Sorry guys I wish I could get those numbers too. They were just some random numbers. Although it is not uncommom for some of the frames we put up to range upwards of $20 sq. ft., labor only. How can someone expect to come on the internet and have all their homework answers handed right to them. Figure out your own cost of doing business and work from there.
duh.... I missed a zero on my previous thinking....
Anyway, around here framing goes for around $3 to $5 a sq ft. On the other hand DP said something about $10+ a sq ft on MA. None of this has anything to do with Canada though... heck - they don't even use real George Washingtons ;-)
Matt, do you know if western NC's Asheville area has comparable framing labor figures to Raleigh's?
I do not know, however I know that the Ashville area housing is somewhat more expensive than Raleigh, and therefore I would expect framing labor to be more expensive. My guess would be 4.00 - 6.00 a sq ft. We have a few fourm members from that area although I can't think of who they are right now.
Where is that BT member map web site?
It's getting tighter here too. I got a call back last week on a pair of houses I bid on. Actually, I did the follow up call as I didn't hear back from him. He asked, "what was your price again?". I told him. Then he asked me what that worked out to per sqft. I told him it broke down to $8.98/ft. He then told me that he'd got someone to do it for $6.50 and could I match that? Maybe next time. ;)
It's getting pretty cut-throat up here. So I guess I'll keep plugging away at these additions I've been framing all summer. I do have two new houses that I've landed coming up in the next month and a half or so, but my market, (medium size customs and specs, 4000sqft-6000sqft) is getting pretty thin as the market is flooded with houses of that size/price range and they're not moving very quickly.
Remodeling/additions is still red hot, and I'm thanking my lucky stars that I was smart enough to develop those relationships and contacts by servicing those guys even when things were 'booming'.
Two family houses and small condo/town house runs are still doing ok. But those are the jobs that are falling into the $7-$8/ft range quite quickly. I picked up plans for a few of those types of jobs, but I'm still going over the numbers to see if they're worth getting involved in at those prices. If I can cover overhead, payroll, and my own wages with them, I may have to take a couple to get through the winter as there won't be much remodeling/addition work once the snow falls. It may mean no profit for the company for a few months, but you gotta do what you gotta do.View Image
Where is BB when you need him.I think that he gets $99,473.
dieselpig,
Commercial buildings like townhouses and were about all that was being built earlier this year. I told all my contractors to do them even when they were much lower than their normal price.. I pointed out that you will lose money on the first floor, break even on the second floor and make your profit on the third floor because by then you'll have worked out sysytems and methods to speed up building..
The guy I keep refering to only builds 4 floor plans and because he knows them so well he rarely pulls out a tape or makes even a slight step without something going together or being picked up or whatever.. He knows for example that the bottom plate for the bedroom aligns with the inside of the third sheet of plywood.. Or the letters on the built rite are eaxctly in line with the studs..
I never see him rush or hurry but the building goes up so fast as to be amazing..
That's the advantage of doing Town houses or condo's boring yes but if you study them there is real beauty in the efficency some are built with..
I've got a hispanic crew that is the same way.. Never rushed or any hollaring going on but they have systems and proceedures down so well that they can build a whole town house complex faster than another crew can build the first building...
Remodels are great if they are big enough.. too often I see guys spend weeks doing small additions or decks for modest income and they miss oppertunies to do the bigger commercial jobs because they are tied up with a few weeks of work and miss the winters worth of work right under their noses..
Thanks for the input Frenchy..... couple thoughts on all that...
I'm quite familiar with the benefits of building the same floor plan again and again. I spent 2.5 years building the same 3 floor plans of colonials in a development for my old boss. We averaged 1000-1200 sqft of production a week, three guys, no machine. We did well for awhile there.
But that arrangement isn't the be-all, end-all either. In fact, I view your guy who builds the same 4 four plans over and over as being trapped and in a bad situation. The fact that he builds the same 4 floor plans exclusively, tells me that he works for a maximum of 4 seperate builders. So if one stops building, he's lost 25% of his leads. If two stop, he's lost 50%. I see guys get into big developments all the time and get caught like this. They get lazy, lose touch with the market and their other contacts, and think they're living high on the hog. And they are for awhile. But when that development is finished they're often left back at square one trying to re-build a customer base and network of new-work leads.
I'm taking remodel/addition work on as a choice Frenchy. There is no "small job" or "big job".... there is only "work". And if you're pricing jobs appropriately, you should be making the same on that "small job that takes weeks" as you are on the condo with the wide open floor plan. You're back to thinking about square footage as the only determining factor in what's a 'big job' and what's a 'small job'..... that's a sure fire way to get sunk.
I've done 800 sqft additions that took six weeks because of the complexity of the floor plan, roof framing, and exterior trim. So is that a small job? It was only 800 sqft. Or was it a big job? It took 6 weeks? They're all the same to me dude.
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There is no "small job" or "big job".... flexability is one of the keys to succcess - roll with the punches.There was a time when I was laying shakes on condo roofs. Alone, I was laying six squares a day in ten hour days with a gun.bUt it was the same roof week after week, and like you said, I lost touch with the real world where real people needed roofs too, for real money. If I was brain dead I would have kept doing that and getting more brain dead. I'm bored to death with new work. I love a different challenge on every job. It keeps me alive.
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I love a different challenge on every job. It keeps me alive.
I see I'm not the only one who feels this way.
dieselpig,
I can't fault your logic, Only add to it.. The gentleman in question was an older guy like myself.. He'd been doing this for several decades and had a credit rating filled with tracks to prove it..
This was his last hurrah and in only one year he and his sons paid in full for all their equipment including new pickups for himself and his sons, a forklift, a trailer full of tools, and whatever his living expenses were..
Since then he's bought and paid for his house and is working on paying for his sons houses.. He understands that it will shortly come to a crashing halt But since he is sooo fast, he's working when no one else is.. His goal is to put enough away to retire on and according to him he's getting close to that point..
Both he and his sons would be bored to tears except they've challenged themselves to build as efficently as possible.. The idea is they would like to do a 2400 sq ft. 2 story house and get it past inspection in four days instead of the currant 5 (since the inspector is checking out the house early on friday morning I suspect they are getting close)
I don't denigrade the size of the project dieslepig, only the irony that causes some contractors to lose the "Big" job that will carry them thru the winter because they are busy building somebodies deck..
You're right, work is work.. It really doesn't matter if you are building a series of townhouses that will keep you busy for months or someones deck that only takes a couple of days. However if you are doing a series of decks and small additions the face time involved and the non-productive time soon adds up in a big way..
Hopefully you can price the smaller jobs high enough to offset the down time involved but that isn't always possible.
Smaller jobs seem to be the area where a lot of guys with minimal overhead, no insurance and perhaps marginal quality dwell, forcing bids at sub par profit levels.. The larger jobs seem to be where fewer fly by night contractors are at since insurance and credit worthiness is carefully checked.
Smaller jobs seem to be the area where a lot of guys with minimal overhead, no insurance and perhaps marginal quality dwell, forcing bids at sub par profit levels.. The larger jobs seem to be where fewer fly by night contractors are at since insurance and credit worthiness is carefully checked.
Actually, exactly the opposite is true here Frenchy. The smaller jobs like additions are the ones that often require the most attention to detail. Existing trim elements must be matched precisely. Often times, labor intensive detail work like trueing up existing floors must be done. Gutter lines need to match up. Every inch of square footage has often been tailored specifically to the owner's possessions and lifestyle. And in general you need a much larger bag of tricks to be able to frame additions efficiently.
Because of all this, a good deal of the GC's prefer to keep the framing in house where it's in their direct control. You often have to pry the jobs from their clenched fists just to get your foot in the door. And even then your work has to be able to stand up to not only the GC's standards, but also the homeowner who comes home every night and looks over your days production and second guesses every joint in the trim and crown in the lumber. And now let me tell you how much more involved the architects are on these types of projects compared to developments and spec builds.........View Image
dieselpig,
I'm not refering to the required expertese, rather the amount of experiance and capitol some bring to the table.
If you're junior new guy you'd bid low hoping to snare a little experiance. Poorly informed homeowners compare all bids to the low one and believe that anybody who charges more must be making a killing. Thus often the small jobs are where the lowest bidders lurk.. However bigger jobs/homes seem to have sifted out the low ball artists who are intimidated by the size and equipment requirements.
Not to say that all commerical contractors always have the same agenda either.. All too often I hear, "We'll bid this one low and that will force so-and so to take the Smith job leaving the way clear for us to cut a fat hog on the hospital annex"...
That sort of thinking goes on a lot especially in the smaller southern cites here in Minnesota where only one or two contractors have the equipment, experiance, and insurance to tackle bigger contracts.
Sounds like you are building your self a niche based on some of your strengths. you are respectfull of the property and can quickly do the add-a-frame and get closed up without letting the weather in, using hard work and good technique. Make guys aware of your strengths to cement the relationships you have and keep them from looking at those lower bids.
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At the end of your career it will be your flexibility that got you through. I know many framers who never thought they'd be doing kitchens and baths or trim. Being able to look at your situation and your ability to adapt is the difference. You seem to understand that well.
Time will tell I guess. In the meantime I'll keep stumbling along.....View Image
If it's for a homeowner, forget the square foot thing. Figure out how many hours or days it will take and charge accordingly.
If it's for a builder, forget it entirely unless there's no other work.
Since you say you do renovations and additions it is unlikely that you can compete on a square foot basis with a real framing crew. I know I can't.
Here in Minnesota the lack of work has forced the price down from around 8.25 per sq ft. to as low as 5.25 per sq.ft.
High end framers are now working around $7.00 or $8.00 per sq.ft if they can find work where previously they were getting $12.00 to $14.00 per sq ft.
And what part of MN would that be, Frenchy?
Gene Davis,
Well basically everywhere.. I cover the southern portion of Minnesota and that's the price framing contractors are telling me about..
I'm sure there are exceptions, there always are, but I see or talk to 50 or so contractors a week and it's pretty universal right now..
What's worse some of the developers are forcing the builders to build decks and such without an additional charge.. Where previously framing contractors could charge extra for bump outs and complex roofs today if they want work they are forced to take whatever the developers offer..
If they don't there is a whole waiting list of framers looking just to make the payments who will..
I have seen a slight increase in work in the last month and a half but no real demand which could force things back to normal..
PS that is just labor and does not include materials.. the lowest offerings do seem to include a nail allowance or fasteners are provided...
thank you
your prices are iexactly what I was looking for.
You have been a great help
George
say that again after u have lost money on the advice
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I can't freaking believe it.
I disagree about the advice leading directly to losses.
Frenchy's numbers are exactly in line with what I see where I am, and the few local framers here have always quoted pricing on a square foot basis.
Their margins are slimmer, some selective pay cuts may have happened, the owners are likely taking lower draws, and with the work having gotten scarcer, the slower or less skilled carpenters have been let go.
In new construction, there are many work specialties for which the sub trades work in unit prices. Framing is one, roofing is another, and things like flooring, painting, stone facing, and even electrical work are included.
To quote strictly on a per square foot basis must mean there is not much hardware required or every bulding takes the same per quare foot.I have built buildings where some had a lot of hardware and some which have not. Each hold down and strap costs time and money.
gene, all the things you point out are exactly why I said what I said.This guy is a remo man, not a framer. There is no way a multiskilled remodelor can hope to keep up with bottom pricing specialists. Frenchy reported what the bottom has dropped to for specialists. Winter is coming. Double the prices and this guy might be able to keep two bucks in his pocket.
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I totally agree, Pif, but if a remo man has the units for reference, he can at least do a quick calc to get a range of where his competition might lie.
Then he needs to think it through, coming up through the basement with under-the-deck work, then deck, walls, yadda, yadda, yadda. Maybe he can find out where he needs to be, and if he can survive it.
Ok, Yeah, if he's using it for a thinking price and not a bidding price, it might have some value
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Piffan,
I sorta agree with you.. Per sq ft pricing is a tough way to earn a living.. All it takes is somebody willing to work a dime a foot cheaper and some developers will switch framers in a heart beat.. they figure it's the framers resposibility to get the house past inspection and once that place is checked off they move on..
Some developers hire everything done as cheaply as possible in order to make the home price attractive.. Since they seem to have little trouble selling such work I gues PT Barnum was right there's an azzhole for every pair of pants..
Too bad customers don't know what to look for..
I figure too that the pricing you are familiar with is framers with lifts and equipment that will make them more efficient than the typical small guy or remodelor.
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Piffan,
You're probably correct..Lifts are so common around here that the smaller builders without them know they are at a disadvantage when bidding.