I’m sure this is probably trivial stuff for any carpenter, but I need a few tips on adding end pieces to a handrail. I’m trying to add simple rounded end pieces to our indoor stair haindrail (typical oak, loaf-of-bread-crossection style). I’ve practiced rail-bolting together two pieces of 2×4 as a trial and it seems nearly impossible to get them to line up perfectly so there’s no obvious seam between the two pieces. How do you do this so they look like one piece? Despite sanding they still don’t look great -at least not like one piece.
I’m screwing in the screw side of the rail bolt by hand since I don’t have the special rail bolt bit for my drill. I think that’s making it hard to go in perfectly straight. Also minimizing chipout on the cut seems to be crucial – is this typically cut by hand or do I just need a better blade on my CMS?
If it matters, I plan on shellacing the rail and maybe waxing it.
Any tips to getting this perfect would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
-Bob
Edited 3/19/2006 4:29 pm ET by BobS
Replies
I am not sure what you are trying to do.
Bob,
I'll assume you mean you are trying to railbolt end caps to a typical oak rail. Am I on track?
Before you go any further, check your local codes. In most places, the rail MUST return to the wall now. That's easy to do with 1/4 turn fittings.
Second, no matter how hard you try, you won't get perfect matches on the joint. Make sure all the cuts are clean and square. Make sure you lay out the holes for the rail bolt carefully. Drill, screw and test fit. Next, take it all apart and glue it. Then, reassemble it. Start the nut and tighten it until it's snug. At this point, you can give it a careful tap with your hammer to get the pieces to line up as well as they are going to. Tighten the nut all the way, plug the hole and set the rail aside to dry.
Once the rail is dry, get your random orbit and start with 80 grit to take off the rough spots. Work thru 100 to 150 and then 200 before the finish.
Because of the way the rail and the fittings are made. none of them are a perfect match. The rail is cut thousands of feet at a time while the fittings are made by CNC or some other device, so they will never be a perfect match.
On top of that, some places sell LJ smith or Kaufmann rail but Shurewood parts (think HD/Lowes). In several hundred installs, I never once found rail and parts that matched exactly. They all needed soem kind of sanding to match.
For filling before finishing, LJ Smith sells injectible filler but ZAR Oak Patch is much better. It comes in a tube and is latex based. So long as you sand it RIGHT before you finish it, it will hold stain and you'll never see it.
If what your trying to do is join mitred ends to the rail, let me know and I'll give you a few secrets.
I almost forgot, Lowes has rail bolt runners for your drill. If you don't buy one of those, at least spring for the LJ SMith Railbolt Wrench. It has a Hole Template on it as well as a fitting to help with the railbolt itself. Also, few people can get the bolt in straight, but a few well placed hammer shots will move it until it's square to the face of the piece it's in.
Edited 3/19/2006 5:01 pm ET by robert
Thanks for all the quick responses.
I guess I wasn't clear. You are right Robert, I'm trying to add an end cap to the typical oak rail. Thanks for the details.
I just checked the code and, I'm a little unclear on whether this part is excepted or not for dwellings, so I'll have to call the BI on monday. I guess I'll have to hold the rest of my questions until then.
Thanks again!
I saw a nifty thing on Ask TOH..a magnectic doo dad for the drill, that tightens a captured nut buried in the rail...anyone else catch that or the name?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" the best investment in life, is a handle on love''
Didn't see anything on tv about it, but one of my stairbuilder buddies was telling me about something like that last weekend.
Check out this link, http://www.crownheritage.com/main.cfm?pagename=easalign.
I saw their ad in the FHB I just got and checked out the website- I think this is what you're looking for.
Mike
Dats it. I see it only works on their profiles. Not a big problem for some, but for the OP here, it may be. I think his profile is referred to as P-90, but it has been awhile since I have seen the actual profile charts.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" the best investment in life, is a handle on love''
Having it work only on their profiles is a big drawback to me, much of what I do is rails milled by a couple local shops to their own profile. I think the cost is mucho $$$ too.
But it does sound pretty cool.
Mike
If you mean something like the attached photo, I used the dowel center as described in one of the above replies, and pulled it tight by clamping block to the rail and to the tail piece, then 2 more clamps to pull the blocks toward eachother. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, I did end up having to sand to make the joint smooth, but it worked, it's rock solid.
Note, I used 3 dowels in a triangle pattern.
Anudder note: I told the client the grain isn't going to match but he wouldn't listen. This is why I'd rather select my own materials.
Edit: Sorry, this was meant to BobS
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FT Job Wanted: Chicago, north side/North Shore burbs. http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=70809.1
Edited 3/19/2006 7:23 pm by Ted W.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
here is the link to that site......
http://www.SWISSINVIS.com
funny thing happened i saw that show to but the next day i got a pamphelt from the company, it`s not a cheap set up $499.00for the starter kit i believe and the big kit is like $899.
Ouch!!!
And yeah, it was 6010 I wuz thinkin of..F4 was Navy, F2 is drip edge..etc. I can't be held responsible for a brain fart at my age..wait, F4 is drip edge too.
I was so dumb, I made all my volutes and returns myself....I never knew any different existed.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" the best investment in life, is a handle on love''
Check out the video on FHB's main site. That's me doing the talking and the bolting.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Okay, I talked with the BI and he's okay with it not returning to the wall. As an FYI, this looks like the profile I'm working with:
http://www.stair-parts.net/fittings.htm
And the "return end cap" is what I'm trying to get on.
Sounds like the key points are : use some dowel center pins, slight tap with a hammer on the bolt end after the screw end is in, use something extra like finish nails to keep it all aligned, sand it like crazy, and don't expect it to look like one piece.
Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
Given that it's not gonna look like one piece, are there any return end caps that are really very different from this profile that go with it. My wife suggested having it end in a ball or something would be cool - although I can imagine that being even more of a pain to install. Anyone do something like that?
Almost always I will use a small shallow carving gouge (or a medium sized shallow gouge used crossgrain) to final fit that type fitting. Cut back the high edges in both directions and then lengthen the bevels a bit then use sharp 80 grit sandpaper to fair and follow up with successively finer grits. This system is used by most of the stair guys I know and works pretty well most of the time. Previous advice about leaving a bit of slack in the bolt fitup is good. Careful paring like this can save tons of time with sandpaper and get a better fit too. This works on crown molding scarf joints and many other fittings too.
instead of using expensive 1/4 turns (not that it matters with LJ 6010 in oak or beach)
try 2 22 1/2 cuts to make your return to the wall, classy look and cuts down on sanding because its all cut from the same piece of handrail.
Pre-drill for the lag end, use a dowel center (these are a small button that fits in the hole and has a marking point on the end) to mark the adjoining piece. You may have to use a couple of straight blocks to keep things in line for marking. Drill the hole for the bolt end a little large so you have some fudge room. It will never look like one piece because it is two pieces. Often, I will add a dowel pin or a small biscuit to keep the part from twisting later on.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I've joined handrail sections together with a special handrail bolt. As I remember it, a 3/4" hole is drilled into the bottom of each end of the rail an inch from the end. Then a grove is cut connecting the two holes. This houses the bolt, which is two round nuts on a threaded shaft (one CW thread one CCW thread). A little tool comes with the rig to tighten it. To help with alinement I've partially driven two 4d finish into the end grain cutting them off so only 1/8" protrudes. Use these as registration pins before bolting.
Sharp saw blade a must. If there is still a problem try a wrap of masking tape And cut through it slowly.
Good luck
we use the railbolts sometimes, but we'also used Kreg pocket screws and epoxy , you can buy the Kreg oak plugs for fillers , less obtrusinve than the 1" oak buttons
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Now there's a good idea!
Truth is that most of the wall returns I've done are just mitered returns. Glue, and a three 8d finishers, and Bob's your uncle. There's no load on the returns, btw.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Somthing like this?
& no fair makin fun of the mess in the back ground
I threw some acryclean on the wood to show the grain better
I'm hangin this rail this week, I'll start a thread on the whole system then.
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"There are about 550000000 firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is...........How do we arm the other eleven?" Yuri Orlov
Robert said it all 100% .!