I try not to knock the trades but in this case, I just can’t not say something. Ed Cunha’s article in the latest issue of Fine Homebuilding says a lot about why some plumbers need to WAKE UP! Yes he has the skill to install a cleanout under an existing sink but why can’t he take the time and invest some pride in workmanship to cut a simple clean hole in the sheetrock rather then bash out a hole with his foot? Don’t tell me that it’s quicker and easier because it’s neither. What does the homeowner think of his “custom installation” after the plumber leaves the house? At least his butt crack wasn’t in plain view on this particular occasion.
This article shouldn’t have been listed under buildingskills heading!
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Replies
Speaking of SKILLS, it seems that some one needs some reading skills.
The artical was on doing a REPLACEMENT.
And if you look at the first picture that shows the EXISTING installation. With the EXISTING hole in the wall.
Edited 7/21/2006 4:50 pm by BillHartmann
Whenever you make a bold statement, expect to get caught on your own sward once in awhile. Looking again at the original installation it seems your right and Ed Cunha is an innocent man. I apologize Ed, here's my humble response.
I've seen similar craftsmanship all too often and each time it evokes a hostile, and somtimes hasty, response from me every time.
You mean kicking a hole in the wall is unacceptable.....hmmmm...and I thought it was so much quicker and easier. : - )
Hey...you read my mind...lol
We dont need no stinkin' drywall saws...If Blodgett and Gunner say, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
What's a drywall saw?
What's a drywall saw?>>>>>>>
I donno.....thought by its name thats its some new fangled contraption that drys wet walls somehow.If Blodgett and Gunner say, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Last year I went on a tour of some expensive homes, and a few were still under construction. One had three A/C units sitting outside and the HVAC installer used a hammer "drill" to knock holes in the OSB sheathing to run his lines!
Quick, fast cheap, pick any two.
If you pick both quick and fast, you have still only picked one...
Yadda yadda yadda
Typed too fast should've been: good, fast CHEAP, pick any two
There you go.=0)
Yadda yadda yadda
didn't want your pet peeve to go ungratified or seem baseless....
Check out the attached pics
Edited 7/22/2006 5:18 pm ET by Matt
"
1_can_we_make_this_any_uglier.jpg"Sure, let me count the ways.1) no escutions.
2) burn marks on the wall.
3) flux dripping off the connections.
4) valve turned so that the handle is about 30* toward the wall.
5) ditto for the regualtor.
6) no insulation or even better several differnet colors and some falling off..
7) goes inits and goes outits at two different levels.
8) Instead of new fittings and pipes use whatever you have left over. I sure that you could get a couple of 45's in their and couple of 2" long left over pipe.
You're too funny....
I have to surrender to your situation...why is it that plumbers seem to do more damage to new construction then any other trade? Again, I apologize to you Ed CunhaSWORD!!!
why is it that plumbers seem to do more damage to new construction then any other trade?
Because HOs, cabinetmakers, framers, and GCs don't give a shid about the Laws of Physics that plumbers have to follow to make the homes infrastructure work.SamT
ROAR!
be thinking...a little teamwork could go a long way...!DUM SPIRO SPERO: "While I breathe I hope"
why is it that plumbers seem to do more damage to new construction then any other trade?
>> Because HOs, cabinetmakers, framers, and GCs don't give a shid about the Laws of Physics that plumbers have to follow to make the homes infrastructure work. <<
There is going to have to be some cutting.... no doubt. OTOH, did you take a look at the pics I posted earlier? pic 1 was a cost saving measure, but 2 and 3 were just plain old could care less workmanship.
Attached are a few pics that support your statement >> that plumbers have to follow << Laws of Physics >>to make the homes infrastructure work <<. They were getting ready to install a cast iron soil stack and there was no "plumbing wall". The size of the 3" couplings required the cutting. The thing I didn't understand was why did they not patch the exterior when they were done? OK - they did after I called them to come back and do it, but why did I have to ask? My mother doesn't clean up my messes nor does she check my work.
The cutting needs to be done in the right places and in a careful and neat maner. And, the loose ends need to be taken care of too. It's not just "someone elses job".
I'm sure this is not indicative of your workmanship. I'm just putting it on display for other's to see what not to do...
I've seen HVAC guys put a hurtin' on framing, and electricians knock out fire blocking so they wouldn't have to drill so many holes... I could go on and on.
did you take a look at the pics I posted earlier? pic 1 was a cost saving measure, but 2 and 3 were just plain old could care less workmanship.
Pic #2 = hole in the floor?
Yeah, well, if you hadn't used the cheapest available subflooring, he wouldn't have been able to do that, and he wouldn't have HAD TO get the water off the OSB as fast as humanly possible.
What did you want him to do? Run down and buy a designer floor drain and install it with pipes connected to the sewer? Drop the extension cord in the puddle and start drilling?
If you ever get standing water on an OSB subfloor, you had better be swinging your hammer as fast as you can, because a couple of ragged holes in the subfloor are nothing. . . Nothing.
Pic #3 was the one where the drain ran thru the cabinet shelf?
Yeah that pic was a good representation of the final quality both the cabinet maker and the GC expect in their work. You may think that the plumber should have had a cabinet maker remake that piece on his dime, but I disagree. You were damme lucky the plumber had a real good idea where his pipes were before they were covered up by the CM and GC. He might have had to rip the entire cabinet back out to find them .
And considering all the fine woodworking tools a plumber does NOT carry around, that's some pretty good cutting in very tight quarters.
Attached are a few pics . . .
there was no "plumbing wall". Yep, the GC didn't G-A-S about anything but $$$. A 2x4 wall is cheaper than a 2x6 one.
The size of the 3" couplings required the cutting. Nope. Putting a 3" pipe thru a 3.5" board required the cutting.
why did they not patch the exterior when they were done Can you say "Exterior cleanout?"
they did after I called them to come back and do it, And I bet you just lost the exterior cleanout. It's probably not required locally, and the plumber is tired of your hassling him now and it's cheaper to just glue the plug back in the hole and he no longer has a reason to make your life any easier.
That plumber went out of his way to insure that as much of the rim joist as possible was left and did a very neat job of only cutting out of the sheathing and housewrap what was needed to install a cleanout.
In all the 5 pics you have posted, I have seen nothing to blame the plumber for. The GC is responsible for the valve-on-wall, the drain-in-shelf and the cut out plate and rim joist. The two hole-in-Tyvec pics look like excellent workmanship as does the valve-on-wall, given what the plumber had to work with.SamT
The flooring was Advantech. Want the bottom view with the stamps? It can take the water, but true, draining it would be prudent. I think Advantech is the most expensive type commonly used. Yes, I expected them to use a drill. Not many crews these days don't have battery drills. So, once he bashed the floor, why didn't he fix it? Didn't have the correct tools? Not my problem.
There was no exterior cleanout planned or installed. What would be the point as is shown in the pic, the pipe goes down into the crawl space. That is where the cleanout was installed.
RE the cabinet, the plumber roughed in and stubbed out his DWV at the wrong height in the cabinet box space next to the one where the kitchen sink base was to go. Maybe I should have gotten the cabinet guy to replumb it when he did his install? The pipe was stubbed out right at shelf height and I had the cabinet guy leave that cabinet loose and pulled out a few inches. The pic represents the plumber's idea of a fix for his mistake. Pulling the cabinet out out, cutting out the drywall, and installing a 90 at a higher or lower height would have been a good solution.
Re the valve "on the wall", why couldn't have the valve and pressure reducer been installed in $2.29 plastic boxes mounted on either side of an intermediate stud? Too much work? See attached pic.
Except this last one, these are just great examples of poor workmanship.
Edited 7/23/2006 6:52 pm ET by Matt
LOL
This is exactly what I suspected was happening.
In your first posts you leave out all pertinant information, then later, after you've got someone committed to the oposite viewpoint, you bring "out the big guns", ie; all the info you left out before.
I guess ol' whatshisname found an apprentice.
ROAR!
Thems as knows, knows. Thems as don't, shouldn't.SamT
Yes, I expected them to use a drill. Not many crews these days don't have battery drills.
After the fact you think they should own a battery drill and furthermore, with your 20-20 hindsight, you think they should have used it.
You think it was during the required pressure test. Where were you during this critical test of an untried system? Dunno, musta been at lunch.
GC's fault.
roughed in and stubbed out his DWV at the wrong height in the cabinet box space next to the one where the kitchen sink base was to go. Maybe I should have gotten the cabinet guy to replumb it when he did his install?
Were you still at lunch in the time frame between roughin, electrical roughin, Carpentry pickup, drywall, painting, and cabinet install?
GC's fault.
Sure the plumber made a mistake during layout. But, you didn't check his layout.
Matt, you merely experienced a messy, but inexpensive, lesson in being a general contractor. You are the captain of the ship. Anything that would have been prevented by nothing more than your presense is your responsibilty.
Don't sweat the hole in the floor. It effects neither the structural integrity nor the esthetics of the house.
Pay the cabinet maker to build a valence shelf over the drain. Backcharge the plumber. Install it yourself. Next time you do the layout before the plumber shows up and make him double check you.
When you put the DW up, it means that you, the GC, approve all roughins under that drywall.
You care more about the big picture than any sub can.
Re the valve "on the wall", why couldn't have the valve and pressure reducer been installed in $2.29 plastic boxes mounted on either side of an intermediate stud?
$2.29 plastic boxes??????????
What was specified in the Scope of work? I'm asking.
The valve is done and looks neat and tidy. Ya gotta ask yerself, "Can you live with it?"
$2.29 plastic boxes? Good, fast, or cheap. Pick 2.SamT
1) Lack of pride in workmanship is not acceptable, regardless of what lip service is provided with it.
2) Any damage done to the house by any subcontractor is repaired by that subcontractor.
I bet the HVAC guys can hack apart a house just as good as plumbers do
mark
I gotta tell ya Matt, that no. 3 is down right UGLY!
The first one I could live with, I dont know what's going on in the second one but no. 3, no way.
Doug
#2 - I think they were pressureizing the newly installed rough-in. Aparently something blew off or whatever and they spilled maybe 50 gallons on the floor. solution? - take a hammer and bash 3 holes in the subfloor to let the water run down into the crawl space! I musta been at lunch or something and when I got back saw all the water but not the holes until after they left. If I had seen which one did it we would have had a "brisk" discussion ;-)