I would like to use PEX plumbing in my new home. The City does not allow PEX.
I would like to convince my building official that Pex is an energy saving choice.I have heard that PEX will deliver hot water sooner than copper. Is this true? Why is it true? What other “green” advantages are there?
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Replies
Tell your city to wake up and get with the program. Plenty of history with it.
I would contact some of the pex manufacturers and get literature from them, that will go somewhere, posts from a message board won't. I'm in MA and I think its pex is part of the code since 2005 but before that, you could ask to be a test house.
I would think the copper piping would loose the heat from the water much faster since copper is a conductor and the plastic would insulate it some. Pex is far and away a better choice, much fewer fittings inside walls, the tubing is much quieter than the copper when the water is running and the cost is a lot less. Last time I used 3/4" pex, the tubing was $.50/ft whereas copper was $2.30/ft.
Pex has been used in europe for a long time and in the US for a good amount of time. Did you ask to use it yet and if so, what was the reply?
Thanks Dday,
I got a no from the building inspector that was on phone duty and have the name of the "higher up" I just thought I would get some ammo before I call him.
There is a great PEX design guide available for free download from the ToolBase.org website. That guide was developed by PATH, the plastic pipe industry groups, and the NAHB Research Center. It should help you demonstrate that PEX is a proven product.
With respect to water conservation, if you do homerun plumbing you can use smaller diameter tubing (3/8 inch rather than 1/2 inch). That means that for every foot of pipe, you will flush about half the water (compared to 1/2 pipe) waiting for hot water.
That savings provides both quicker hot water to the fixture but also reduces water and sewer bills. In the communities I have studied, the sewer charges are 2-3 times the water charges.
I'm not sure if it is PEX, but New Zealand has been using some brand plastic tubing for a long, long time now and the building stores carry very little copper and hardly and PVC. You NZ is a cold place during their winter and they are the last stepping off place for Antartica. They said freezing is not a problem with their stuff, due to the expansion properties. They could not understand why we still use Cu.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
You may be able to convince your local building official that PEX is the greatest thing since beer, but that won't to you any good. He just enforces the code -- he can't change it.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
"You may be able to convince your local building official that PEX is the greatest thing since beer, but that won't to you any good. He just enforces the code -- he can't change it."
Interesting comment, Mike. So who is making those decisions when local municipalities impose their own exclusive ordinances?
The mayor? City Council? City Administrator?
Just wondering.New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
"So who is making those decisions when local municipalities impose their own exclusive ordinances?"
That depends on the type of government and how it's set up. It's a mish-mash. Around here, the county health department sets the plumbing code and does inspections, but that has been overridden by the city government in certain respects. (How dishwashers are installed in Pittsburgh city limits is one that comes to mind.) The local governing body adapts the code, often "as modified". So in the example above, Pittsburgh's City Council adapted the plumbing code but added some "tweaks". If I wanted to change it, I'd need to convince the Council. Good luck with that one. However, you may be lucky -- given the popularity of PEX, they may already be considering it. Talk to you representative. Otherwise, it usually takes the clout of a big operation coming in to do a large development to pressue gov't to take action. Another option is to apply for a variance.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Ok, Homedesign, back to your original question about advantages of PEX. I'm no expert but just built a new house with PEX. Here are the thoughts that come to mind:- faster to assemble
- more energy efficient (copper transmits heat much faster, thereby cooling hot water)
- no fire risk while assembling
- can be bent around obstacles
- lasts longer than copper
- less pressure drop over long distances (less friction)
- more resistance to freezing
- lower material costs
- with homerun systems can be bundled together with tie wraps for neatness and energy savings
- color coded with red/blue for hot/coldScott.
Edited 7/26/2007 1:36 pm by Scott
With a home run design you can shut off a problem fixture or appliance without shutting down the whole house. I know of very few houses that have ball valves to every fixture when used with copper.Home run with PEX is nothing short of,,, A Home Run! :-)
>>>With a home run design you can shut off a problem fixture or appliance without shutting down the whole house.Good point, which reminds me of another advantage of PEX/Homerun. We've been slowly finishing the house interior ourselves, and started with one laundry tub and one toilet. As I (slowly) got around to installing one fixture at a time I simply opened each valve in the basement. Stick-on labels identify each run which helps with future troubleshooting.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Funny Mike:
Re. who makes the code.
On this side of Pennsylvania, all the inspectors must abide by the IRC since it's adoption by the state and the creation of the UCC (Unified Costruction Code)
State law says that if there was a more stringent ordinance in place in 1999 then the local governing body could enforce that more stringent ordinance or drop back to the IRC code with the States Ammendments.
1 example is that some towns had a fire sprinkler ordinance requiring them in residential. Some have kept that but others could not add that ordinance after 1999 unless they went thru a special process that would be challenged by the PBA. (Pennsylvania Builders Assocaition)
Some inspectors still think that they call the shots but if you challenge them in a polite and professional way, many of them know that they can only enforce the code that is adopted.
Anyway, every state and jurisdiciton is different but dont take the inspectors word for it. Find out the code and laws in writing and then believe. I have been lied to and bamboozled by inspectors for years, some intentional and some accidental!
Mike,
Many of the cities around here(Dallas) do allow PEX..just Not PLano (yet?)
If my BI wouldnt accept Pex i'd probably ask what size lead pipes I should use.
Tell your guy to get out of the dark ages. Doesnt really help you in Texas but Pex (if it were to freeze) will expand to 10 times its size. Its cheaper, and easier to run.
How much stock in copper does your BI actually own?
I was told PEX expands 4X when frozen w/o a problem,What ever the real answer is... It's a whole lot more than copper.
You cant believe everything you read on the internet, ya know.
But I saw it and it must be true............ :-)
Where pex is used in other places in texas, find out who says no to pex in your town and if its the BI, have him talk to inspectors in other areas that allow it.
Not sure about TX, in CT there is a state building official that can override any town or city builing inspector. Here, you fill out a form with your request, and the issue is resolved in a matter of days.
I built a house that has well water, so pex is ideal for corrosion resistence. I used 1" manifolds, 1/2" supply to sinks/toilets, and 3/4" to shower/tub fillers.
The I.D. of 1/2" pex is only 3/8 ", and 3/4" aprox. 5/8". You don't get the same volume from 1/2" pex as 1/2" copper.
If you are able to use pex, I highly recomend running 3/4" to sinks/toilets and 1" to showers/tub fillers
"The I.D. of 1/2" pex is only 3/8 ", and 3/4" aprox. 5/8". You don't get the same volume from 1/2" pex as 1/2" copper."What is the friction loss of pex vs copper?What affect does the fact ath pex only has fitting at the beginning and end of the run vs maybe 5-10 or more with copper?.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,I don't have it at my fingertips, but I recall from previous reading that the friction loss of plastic pipe is much less than that of metal pipe. OTOH, I've often wondered about the friction created by PEX joint fittings. Like you said, the ID is already reduced, then you add a joint fitting made of copper which further reduces the ID.Hopefully, most installations use design principles that minimize the number of fittings.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I just saw this in a Q&A, but I don't remember where.You can use the same trade size in PEX as you do in copper, because of the lower friction losses in PEX..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks to all
I will take some the feedback and this FHB article to the city today
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Protected/021180070.pdf
I will post the response..thanks again, John
City of Plano, Texas Response to PEX:
"No you can not use PEX it is absolutely out of the question"...the city allowed a test house several years ago...when the water was turned on for the demo.. many fittings leaked and one actually sprayed one of the city inspectors in the face!
There was also a muttering about aluminum wiring and "aren't you glad the city of Plano did not allow aluminum wire"
The city may consider it next time they amend the code.
Plano is not a small city...one hand of the city wants to tout Plano as a progressive "green city" or the "Austin of North Texas" and then there is the other hand.
Wow. Sounds like they based a pretty major decision on the work of one numbskull installer -- probably somebody with stock in a copper mine. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
another comment from the building official:
"I am very leary of anything that saves a builder money"
>>>"No you can not use PEX it is absolutely out of the question"That is nothing short of breathtaking. Don't these people keep up with current practice? Sounds like they need to attend a conference or two. There was an entire townhouse complex here that was plumbed, filled with water, pumped up to 200PSI, and then got caught in a quick cold snap. The entire complex froze. A few days later it thawed, was drained, and the water supply turned on. There was not a single leak.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
"I am very leary of anything that saves a builder money"I'm sorry you have to deal with this ####. Ask him if he's leary of nail guns or paint sprayers. Or was it better before bobcats and excavators. Have you met him? With his attitude, I would expect him to have a personal experience of the depression, i.e. about 92 years old.What are some other larger cities around you, I know Dallas is close (at least for texas its close). Call those cities and see if they allow pex and after you talk to a number of them, give the numbers to the plano people and ask them nicely if they will talk to those BI's about their experiences with pex. If the nice way gets you nowhere, then see if you can go to the state level and over ride the local nitwit. Some one from CT mentioned in a previous reply that they could do that in CT.Also, see if you have any test houses around that were built for scientific testing of insulation, plumbing, etc. I know Florida has a few. And talk to the sales reps for pex companies that are used in your area, they may have experiences dealing with this BI or others like him. You should be able to get some sales reps numbers from your local plumbing supply houses. They may also have some test houses, studies, etc. to show the BI. With the size of plano, the sales reps should be eager to help and open up that market.I use the crimp style pex and it could not be simpler. You make a clean cut on the pex, slide on the crimp collar, slide on the fitting and make the crimp with a special tool. The only screw up you can make is if you don't slide the collar all the way on to the pex. Once you start to crimp, the tool does not allow you to stop until the collar is crimped completely. I have not had one pex fitting leak, I've had a few copper here and there leak. Every effort you make will save you a ton of money with the price of copper and the labor expenses. Even if copper and pex were the same money, labor and materials, I don't know why anyone would choose copper over pex.Bottom line is this BI is very naive and needs to evolve with the improvements in his field.
DDay,
Here is an Update.... 6 months later
I have just learned that the city of Plano,Tx has reversed it's ban on Pex.
Wooppee
You can use the same trade size in PEX as you do in copper, because of the lower friction losses in PEX
One thing that came to mind ( I have no evidence of this, since I'm just now aquainting myself with PEX) is that since there are no connectors, there are no joints causing turbulence like in copper pipe and the turns would tend to sweep more than the 90s that are so prominent in copper plumbing.
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I've never met a man that was owed as much as he thought he was.
I can understand that the Pex tubing wouldn't have a problem with freezing, but what about the manifold and the various fittings to connect the Pex with the faucets? Are those designed so that freezing will not be a problem or is one likely to find a very wet house if the plumbing gets frozen?
I don't think any part is really "designed" to freeze, and it's not recommended by anyone; it's just that when the unfortunate event happens there is some tolerance, more so than copper.Your point about the manifold is a good one. I happen to know that the plumber that did the townhouse that froze makes his own manifolds out of short pieces of 3/4 PEX and ball valves so there was likely more tolerance that the commercially made ones out of solid plastic.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Why 3/4?
Most faucets deliver around 2gpm. 1/2 pex can easily deliver 4gpm. And you have 2 1/2 lines hooked up to each faucet. Sometimes bigger isn't better.
>>>Why 3/4?That's another issue that reminds me of design principles. (I hope we're not hijacking the OP's thread here.)We went with 1" from the well, 3/4" from there to manifolds, and 1/2" from manifolds to homeruns. Works like a charm. Completely even pressure distribution; flushing a toilet or turning on a shower has no deleterious effect on other fixtures.The only thing I notice is that if many fixtures are open then the pressure drops evenly across all fixtures. I know that this is due to the limitation of a single, partially loaded whole-house water filter. We're have a well which produces a fair amount of sediment. If the filter is loaded then there is a limit to how many GPM will pass through. A city system would be immune from this problem.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”