As a carpenter – observer of the Pex revolution I’m just curious of your plumber experience with the two (or is there more) types of connection. Did the “crimp type” not work out? Or, is it just giving way to more convenience with the “spread” type with a nylon sleeve.
Just curious.
Replies
There are at least five methods that I can think of to terminate Pex connections.
In my opinion, Wirsbo has by far the best and most innovative with their ProPex system. Any other method is more expensive and certainly not as easy to use.
We started out using the hand expanders and went to the battery powered version because it is easier to use and much faster.
Crimping connections has always been cumbersome and left me wondering if or when it was going to fail. The APR or SSC systems offer other alternatives. Then there is the old standby compression type fittings.
I'm willing to bet that every new home will have Pex in it within 10 years.
Edited 1/27/2006 8:54 am ET by BoJangles
I'm willing to bet that every new home will have Pex in it within 10 years.
You must be talking about those not by tract-builders and those made in the SE portion of the country.
I live in the upper midwest. Five years ago there wasn't a home in our area that used Pex. The inspector told me last week that about 60% of the homes he inspects now use Pex as the main plumbing material.
There are a lot of in-floor heating systems here and of course, they all use Pex.
Its cheap, easy to use, quiet, dependable, labor saving etc. etc...what's not to like??
>> I'm willing to bet that every new home will have Pex in it within 10 years. <<
>> You must be talking about those not by tract-builders and those made in the SE portion of the country. <<
Are you saying that tract builders in your area are not using PEX? If not, what are they using?
Typically, if its a property, say, $200K and under then its all PVC. If its above that mark you'll find copper. The plumber in my development, the only one not employing Latino labor, has done all of the homes. Its a father and son operation. Hell, I was amazed they used copper! I'm not sure the southern mentaility has accepted PEX in traditional plumbing roles, yet.
We see lots of PEX here in NC. Also very popular is CPVC. Don't see much copper. Tract builders are most all PEX since it's the least expensive.
>The plumber in my development, the only one not employing Latino labor, has done all of the homes. Its a father and son operation. Hell, I was amazed they used copper! I'm not sure the southern mentaility has accepted PEX in traditional plumbing roles, yet.Your development isn't necessarily the standard-bearer for the entire SE. And your plumber, the only one not employing Latino labor (whatever that's meant to suggest), is not the only indicator of what's being used. Look around...lotsa PEX being used all over the place, even back before there WAS an expander tool.
Cloud, I wouldn't classify myself as the typical homebuyer. I've been watching houses being built since I was 5-6 years old. This has always interested me (don't know why I never became an architect). I've walked onto a lot of communities under development by quite a few different builders, too. I'm about to walk into one around the corner that starts at $800K. But none of the +50 or so under-development communities around me from the $140K-500K that I've been in during the past five years have shown a single sign of PEX indoors (or outdoors). Its all PVC and Copper. I would love for PEX examples around me.
Up untill recently around here it was all copper. With copper prices going up I have seen more pex installations.
And what, crude oil hasn't gone up?
Plastic has gone up also, but it is more competitive than copper. If the plumbing install takes less time for the plumbers to do, and they are getting a fixed fee per home the plumbers are happy.
I remember not too many years ago plumbers were happy to pay almost 50% more for PEX to save the installation labor time. Now they save on material as well, that's a happy thing :D-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
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Effective Jan 1 there is no Wirsbo look for Uponor. The ad in Prof. Builder reads:
"Announcing a name change. From Wirsbo to weirder"
Whatever they call it..I love it!!!! It's the greatest innovation in plumbing since PVC.
I just got the cert to do Wirsbo... all i wanted was info on it as it just got approved in my area... and wirsbo is the only one approved... factory guy came out... looked at the project... trained me & the plumber right then, & gave us our cert. it's not rocket science... it's the expanded tube on fitting sys... I can think of no reason not to use it... The plumbing inspector told me only 2-3 jobs had been done in our area so far... but I'd say you'll see thousands in the next year...
p
all i wanted was info on it as it just got approved in my area... and wirsbo is the only one approved
What state are you in? At what level were the previous restrictions, city, county, state??
Seems like a lot of confusion about whether PEX is allowable for PW or not. Go to one supply house and they say, "no" and another one says, "yes".jt8
"Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals." -- Sydney Smith
Seems like a lot of confusion about whether PEX is allowable for PW or not. Go to one supply house and they say, "no" and another one says, "yes".
I'd skip the supply house and ask the inspector. That is what we pay them for, after all.
BTW, all ASTM listed PEX systems for potable water are approved by the IPC and the IRC. The issue is only whether your particular jurisdiction exists in this century.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Just adding that it is in the UPC aswell
Thanks.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I'm in TN Shelby co. and ONLY wirsbo propex and ep are approved as of now and it better be all marked with their p/n... before this you could use copper or cpvc only and they didn't like to see cpvc that much... You really can't go by what the supply house says in my area, because they serve a pretty wide area and what will work in one county won't in another... here it's also on an inspector by inspector deal... they all have things they look for that are "special to them" not that they are wrong just some like to see things done a certain way...
P
Current job----- 42 story hotel/condo Bellvue WA
pex footage somewhere between 45,000 & 65,000 feet installed.
All wirsbo--- & all done with hand expander.
ok, you would know. We had to connect a couple of those (1/2 inch) they were wet. The nylon sleeve wanted to slide back. Do you not put the sleeve on all the way, like a 1/8 hangover?
I hate it when they slip.
I usually clean the pipe real well then cut off that last lil bit & the ring too, then try it again.
The ring is pex too by the way
i was instructed to leave the ring just less than 1/8" over
p
Thanks ponytl,I think I saw the plumber do that (leave the sleeve 1/8 shy out) but it didn't register until I had the "slip back" problem. It's kinda amazing that these joints hold like they do. It reminds me of the first time I shot that nail gun - the hammer has never looked the same since. I bet the old soldering setup doesn't look the same to the plumbers now.
I'm not a plumber but am involved in building and on Vancouver Island I haven't found one plumber who has even heard of the expanding method let alone use it. Out east the plumbers who did use it I remember complaining about in really cold weather they had to keep the fittings in their pocket.
As I do reno's I'm always trying to figure how to get into tight places where in new construction plumbing "room" is rarely the problem.
roger
In Washington they are using it in skyscrapers and 100 miles away, in Canada, they have never heard of it???
What does that suggest to you?
Bad marketing?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Hmmmmm.................................I don't know. What does it suggest to you?
roger
Well, I'm a transplanted Canadian so I can poke fun at them. ;)
My Uncle was a big timer in the construction unions in Canada so I know a lot about how they operate. I think they may have something to do with the slow pace of modernizing the plumbing trades.
It could be poor marketing as Andy suggests, but it's hard to believe they haven't gone after that market yet.
Actually, the use of Pex is so widespread and common here that I am very surprised when I hear so many people say it's not approved where they live or that they have never heard of it.
I can say this...I know a lot of plumbers that were grumbling about having to use this **#* new stuff ..blah, blah, blah. Now you couldn't get them to use anything else!
Wirsbo has such an excellent assortment of fittings to go with their Pex, that it is very easy and convenient to use it for almost anything in a home.
Hi again.
When I came out west (from Ontario) 4 years ago I had never heard of Hardi Board (cement siding). I can't say that it wasn't out east but I had never seen in or heard of it. There are lots of things in the world that have never seen the light of day in other parts.
The double flush toilets (water savers) were common in Australia 25 years ago when I was there. Those toilets that have a pump system that pumps "UP" in a small pipe I saw in England 25-30 years ago. Those small instant heat boilers have been in Europe since the war. The Robertson screws and screwdrivers were invented inCanada about 1912 and have just been discovered in the U.S. and have renamed them "square" and I'm not sure whether they are even colour coded like they are here in Canada. The mini van was supposedly invented by Chrysler but had been in the rest of the world long before.
I agree it probably has to do with marketing. I don't see many mini split a/c units out here so I called the manufacturers rep and the price he wanted to sell them to me was what we RETAILED them in Ontario AND I was just talking to a client who just moved from Costa Rica and he paid about HALF of what we pay for a mini split!!!!!
There is always a reason for something. We might not know it or even agree with it but there is always a reason.
roger
In Washington they are using it in skyscrapers and 100 miles away, in Canada, they have never heard of it???
What does that suggest to you?
Well...as a Canadian I had pex installed in my house 10 years ago by a local plumber up here in Northern Ontario, so I don't think that qualifies us as too far out of the loop in terms of adopting the technology!
I'm sure your local plumber thinks it's great stuff. I think the problem is with the labor unions dragging their feet the same way they did in the States when they first came out with PVC for drain and vent systems.
Plumbers were using oakum, lead and cast iron for years around the metro areas, long after most tradesmen had gone to plastic pipe.
BTW, I still think cast iron has it's place and I still think copper has it's place. But a major metro area like Vancouver should have seen a lot of Pex by now.
Talk to Collin at Majestic Mech.
Interesting. I know Collin. They must be a rarity because I haven't seen any of the tools or fittings at any supply house (though I must admit I haven't asked for them) and I haven't seen it in any construction with it.............yet. Maybe on the mainland it is more common.
roger
I thought you knew him. If you see him, tell him I said Hi.
Where are you Rich? I'm up in Sidney and have a place up in Saltair.
roger
Rich P. from Moose Jaw.
Ouch, I hope you didn't have too much 3/4 and 1 inch!
98% was 1/2"
Copper manifold in each unit & hotel room then single runs to each fixture.
I felt pretty sorry for the guys until I lost my help & was puting in 6" copper by myself.
That crap gets heavy after a while.
Wow! That's a chunk of pipe to solder! What were you using the 6"pipe for??
Soldering 6" can be a task.
I only had to solder a few flanges, & braze some "T" drills.
Mostly on 2-1/2" & larger we roll groove it http://www.kembla.com/victaulic.html
6" is what size our mains going up the building. We installed about 3800' total for the building 494' tall building
I learn something new every day!!
The day I stop learning is the day they nail the coffin shut.
"42 story hotel/condo Bellvue WA"That the project on 8th that was shut down for a while?The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Yup Lincoln square was shut down when the original developer lost their shirt during the dot carnage.
Kemper Freeman jr bought it & it went up for rebid.
Everybody under bid & nobody is making any money.
Lincoln Square...
That's the one.
Are they importing finished bathroom modules for the condos and craning them in? All done already - plumbing, tile, etc., etc. Just hook 'em up.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
LOL
that's a good one you were expecting efficiency.
Just plain basic construction with no details actually lining up with the core construction.
1000 sq ft condo went for about 550K originally now there sellin at just over a million.
Cheese ball cabinets - laminated particle board stain right out of 1975 dark dark brown.
Dark laminated wood floors.
same carpet throughout every one
3/4" granite counters------- they put the seam right in the middle of the sink.
Penthouses will be nice the two end cap ones East & West both two story with elevator about 6000 sq ft rumors say they went for 4.5 mil or 5.4 mil depending on who you ask.
Here are some pics of the view from the west penthouse.
1--- North
2--- west
3----- south west
4---- south
@@@ Cheese ball cabinets - laminated particle board stain right out of 1975 dark dark brown.
Bet they have spiffy doors. I always recommend buy/build a plywood box. You can tart it up from there.
Dark laminated wood floors.
same carpet throughout every one
3/4" granite counters------- they put the seam right in the middle of the sink.
Sound like the only detail missing is the basalt rock fireplace. Nice view from the top. Of course, for that price, you still might get some waterfront or a view.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.