Posting this for someone else;
Location Florida keys.
This is in a “private development”. Hundreds of HOs.
They (HOA) generally are responsible for their own infrastructure. Meaning it is not a problem that falls under a municipality.
There is an underground “water main” ,actually a branch supply, that supplies 20+- HOs. It is some sort of fiberglass pipe. It has devoloped a leak. It is 2 1/8″ I.D.
The underground run goes under alot of inaccessible areas ( concrete pads, driveways, even houses). The section with the leak is about 100 to 150 feet long, and accessible at each end (dig hole).
The question is – what would you use to sleave inside this pipe ?
Once the run is made, it needs to be adapted back to pipe thread. It can then be adapted back to an adapter to the fiberglass pipe.
First thought was to use 1 1/2″ pex, and Sharkbites. – Simple, cheap. Problem is Sharkbite doesn’t seem to make 1 1/2″ fittings.
Wirsbo has the fittings, but the expander tool is thousands of dollars. It seems that you can’t crimp a pex fitting that big. And, you need the electric expander for 1 1/2″.
Any other ideas for the pex, or a different material?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Replies
Polybutlyne,insert fittings, hose clamps.
Thanks, I'll pass it on / google.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Duct tape?
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
most wirsbo/upnor suppliers have a tool to lend... we have the basic hand tools but when we use 1.5" we borrow the tool for a few hours...
btw... if you really need to do the 1.5 and can't get a tool... a manual muffler pipe expander will work... with an electric impact gun... they are about $20... ask me how i know :)
P
Now that is something I never would have thought of!!! That's a great idea. I assume it worked OK for you??
we ran some 1.5" and only needed 2 more connections to be finished... the borrowed tool was on a barge (they are use'n a ton of pex on the boats it seems) so i found an expander that fit... used the upnor lube on it... expanded some... let off ... turned it 90 degrees... and finished expanding.... we played with a scrap first just to see... my muffler pipe expander had more fingers than the pex tool... so it might have done a better job...
anyway... yes it worked fine
when you've done so much with so little for so long.... it's all about doing anything with nothing...
p:)
I would agree with the supplier thing around here, I think distribution channels are a bit more sparse in the keys.
Good tip on the muffler expander. That's the kinda dude we're dealin' with here.
I assume there's no real brain surgery to the wirsbo expansion then. Just expand , insert, and let the memory do it's thing?
I haven't done the expansion thing - I have the crimp tool...
Thanks man.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
How many homes are served passed that point?
Assuming that the PEX is the ID then that is 1/2 the area of the old pipe.
Any chance of circumnavigating the area?
I was thinking about if a horizontal boring company could use the old pipe at a guide.
But then though of something better.
There are companies that replace pipe and pull new. They run a cable down the old pipe. Then that the far end the have a wedge shape steel breaker head that also pulls in a new pipe. I think they PE is one that is commonly used.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I am not completely up to speed on the engineering side of this situation. It is a loop. Fed from both sides. I brought up the same concerns and they didn't seem to worried. I think it may share feed to 8 homes.
I'm thinking there is very little logistical leeway. Picture a trailer park on a Key.
Horizontal company wanted a bailout to do it. It's funtional right now by being fed from only one side of the loop. They don't want to break the bank to put it back to original, but a semi cheap fix would be worth the labor.
Is polyethylene cool for potable water? For some reason I didn't think so...but what do I know.
Thanks.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Yes.PE is what is commonly used for wells.And I am not sure, but I think that it is also used for rural water distribution systems.http://www.magicplumbing.com/sewer_trenchless.htmlhttp://www.budgetsewer.com/trenchless.htmlhttp://www.hcplumbing.com/sewer.htmlThat looks like a system that junkhound could do with a tow truck to do the winching..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Well then Pe would be alot easier, and probably cheaper...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Line bursting is definitely the way to go.
If you use PE pipe, be sure to put some kind of a surge arrest system on it. PEX is PE that has been cross linked. They started to cross link it because the PE, has a residual stress system left from when they extrude it, that after enough surge cycles, it starts to break down into long strings and break down.
The water industry has spent hundreds of millions of dollars, replacing PE service lines that got put in during the 60's and 70's, before it was discovered that it had serious problems.
The way we replaced it was to run a burster through it and pull in good old copper.
Depending on how many services there are on the system, they may qualify for grant funding from the state or federal government to upgrade/repair their system. The State EPA would be the place to start.
The Contractors I worked with had a pulley system that replaced a tooth on the backhoe bucket, and a Warn winch bolted onto the boom, that they used to pull the burster, and new line in with.
I know you are trying to do this for the least money possible, but it really should be at least looked at by an engineer, if you are changing the pipe diameter, or type. The lag time, and fire flow are both critical issues, that most people that aren't engineers have no idea how to calculate.
The surge thing is interesting, i'll pas it on.
It's a private system, would it still have a chance of funding?
Good question about fire resources, I'll throw that in the mix too.
It is a private/condo system (imagine a mobile home park). They have a few areas that they know are bad, and are losing a good bit of water. They know, in the semi near future, they will need to do major upgrades. For the meantime they would like to stop the bleeding.
The "lots" are 35' wide each. The thought is to pull two "lots" at a time - 70'. Feed each lot from the opposite sides and then do two more. Repeat.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
The funding availability for upgrades to small systems depends on a few different things. But, the main push is for water quality, safety (fire flow), and reliability/leakage. The State EPA or Water Resources office is the place to start. With the current financial mess there may not be State funds available, but a major portion of the money was Federal, so it could still be available. <!----><!----><!---->
The early fiberglass pipe was another thing the water industry got burned on. It was supposed to be the great new thing, and last forever. It too had residual stresses from the pultrusion process, and tends to break down linearly after being subjected to surge. Because of the experience with fiberglass and PE pipes, the water engineering community is a little too gun shy, and hesitant to accept newer alternatives such as PEX, and spin cast fiberglass, which were designed to solve the problems the last generation of materials had. <!----><!---->
If the whole system is made up of the fiberglass pipe, they really need to get an engineer involved, and look at replacement of the whole mess. It is just going to keep springing leaks. <!----><!---->
The pull length could be quite a bit longer. Sewer replacements typically go 300 to 350-feet, with quite a bit larger pipe. I did a water transmission line, (36-inch diameter, no direct taps), replacement that had pulls of 1/4 mile. <!----><!---->
But, the short pulls mean that the work could be done with smaller equipment, such as a Case 580, and the footprint will be a lot smaller. You will have to excavate at every service tap to tie those in, so pulling service to service, could also be an effective option. The down side of short pulls is that there is some kind of connection that needs to be made at the ends of the runs, and the connections are typically what fail in the future. <!----><!---->
I am under the impression that the whole system is fiberglass.
Great information, thanks man.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Dumber than a rock here, but I've never seen fiberglass pipe.
What it am?
Joe H
The old stuff was pultruded, a process where the fiberglass strands are pulled through the resin, and out through the die to make the pipe. (there is a short article on Wikipedia about it). It is still used in some chemical processes, because it can be made inert to quite a few acids and strong bases that would eat metal pipes, or other plastics.
It was used for a short while in the water industry, but abandoned when it became obvious that it was going to have problems with longitudinal splitting due to residual stress left in the pipe during manufacture. The pressure surges seen in the water line as things are turned on and off, tend to accelerate the splitting.
Since then centrifugally spun, fiber reinforced pipe, has been developed that doesn't have the same issues, but does deliver on the resistance to chemicals. The most common brand in the US is Hobas.
it is my understaging that pex not be used underound , contaminates can be absorber through the pipe into the water
Will check it out.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I'd go for black poly. At least that's what I'd use to determine if the existing pipe can be sleeved at all. A 100-150 ft run doesn't sound like much, but through in a couple of bends and possibly a break and you've got some tugging to do. Can you put in a temporary bypass to service the folks downstream while you are fussing with the repair?
It's a loop. fed from both sides, so yes.
70' +- runs.
I'm getting info just as pieces and trying to relay it back to here - not trying to be evasive.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City