How much privacy should a person expect when there’re having a plan drawn?
In general, when someone comes to me to have a lpan drawn I don’t tell anyone else they’ve hired me. I figure if they want everyone to know they’re building a house they can talk about it themselves.
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No one has complained to me about it yet, but……..
A few days ago someone asked me if I’d finished a plan for a particular person. They had heard the person was being difficult, and they wondered if I’d finished up with them.
I knew I hadn’t told the person anything, so I started asking questions. Turns out my Wife had told them.
My Wife doesn’t think it’s any big deal. But it bothers me – Especially if she’s telling people that particular customers are being difficult. (Even though it was true in this case)
.
So back to the question – Is privacy assumed when you’re working for people?
Or is this no big deal, and I’m blowing it out of proportion?
You’re hard to put a finger on.
So if you don’t mind, I’ll use my whole hand.
Replies
I don't think privacy is an issue unless the customer has requested it. If someone asked me, I would confirm the project and then suggest they talk with the customer to get more info, or they could ask the customer to call you and approve release of information (not likely). And I would stop talking shop around DW.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I do NOT talk shop around DW. But most of the customers stop by the house one or more times for various reasons. Since it's a small town, she knows most of them.
A gossip is someone with a great sense of rumor.
Maybe I read it wrong. I inferred that DW had told a frind that you were drawing plans fopr someone, and she said that they are being difficult.
Maybe you meant that everyone knows the customer is difficult. In that case, I would suggest that you ask DW not to talk to her friends about your various businesses."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
DW has apparently told people who I was working for more than once. She thinks it's O.K. - "They won't tell anybody".But I know better. Nothing travels faster than small town gossip.I have asked DW to keep her mouth shut, but it doesn't help. Like I said - She doesn't think it's any big deal.Since the customers come to the house and she knows who they are, I can't hide their identities from her. God knows I would if I could. .So back to the question - Is the privacy issue a big one?So far no one has really complained about it, or even asked for privacy.
I figured out a way to make Death Row a little more fun.
Musical electric chairs.
boss.. i think we have to walk a fine line between privacy and marketing
you really want people to be talking about your work..
the problem is what we really want is our CUSTOMERS to be talking about, and singing the praises of, our work
i discourage my employees and my subs from publically criticizing our customers... and i would certainly be fearful if i found out one of my customers had heard thru the grapevine that i thought they were "difficult"
as you know... it is very hard to get people to sing our praises... but takes very little effort at all to sour the relationshipMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have asked DW to keep her mouth shut, but it doesn't help. Like I said - She doesn't think it's any big deal..
So back to the question - Is the privacy issue a big one?
*************
I think this would upset me on a couple of levels. As a customer I certainly would NOT expect the relatives of anyone I hired to be gossiping about me.
As the person hired I would not expect my relatives to be gossiping about my business or customers to anyone or for any reason.
And maybe most of all - if you have asked your wife to stop & she continues then if I were you I'd have a huge problem with it. It is my belief that if you have told a person that their actions are upsetting you & they continue with no attempt to understand your side of the issue then there are only two reasons why. Either they are trying to hurt or piss you off or they simply do not care enough about you to be bothered. Both are deal breakers for me. JMO
Bobbi
Doing any type of business involves a certain level of intimacy.
"Loose lips, sink ships"
I think you've got the right atitude, keep as much to yourself as possible. When dealing with people, you end up knowing both financial and personal info. that nobody wants spread around.
Moms the word
DW?
Dumb Wife?
Dumb Woman?
Da Wife?
Dish Washer?
I think "DW" usually stands for "Dear Wife", but could have lots of variations, include some of those you listed.
There are a wide variety of expectations for privacy. Some folks tend toward the paranoid and don't want any information given out about them. Others tend toward exhibitionism and strive for maximum publicity. Then there are us normal folks that fall somewhere in between...However, privacy concerns are different from being bad mouthed, and I doubt that anyone likes that. Again, there is a range of reactions depending upon the particular situation. What some gracious folks might consider as constructive criticism might send others postal.
>I don't think privacy is an issue unless the customer has requested it.Privacy in business dealings should be assumed unless there is an agreement to disclosure. Clients aren't identified unless they ok it. My projects aren't local, so DW couldn't say anything that would get back to anyone, but I still don't talk bad about clients to her or anyone else (probably have the occasional slip-up or exception) because it's never good if word gets back to the client. She doesn't know their names, either. If you don't say it, then it can't be repeated, and you won't end up in an embarrassing situation.Doctors, lawyers, psychologists, financial advisors are all good models in this regard. How would you (editorial you) feel about hearing that your atty or shrink found you to be a difficult client? It discloses both that you're their client and that they think you're difficult. That violates two business principles for professionals, imo.
We don't operate on the assumption that a project is confidential unless a customer gives us reason to believe he wants it confidential. Of course most of our work is actual construction and is not readliy concealed. I don't think that a customer has the same expectations for confidentiality that they would have of a doctor, lawyer or priest. Certainly there are not the same legal proscriptions.
OTOH, we try not to say anything about our customers that we could not say to their faces. In most cases this puts them in a positive light and when it doesn't they don't deserve better treatment.
As far as your wife goes, we should all probably assume that she has a great many fine qualities that more than balance out the occasional problem. I feel lucky in that way myself.
Design is different from construction. When one builds, as you said, others can see it happening and see the results. Not so with designing. It's not done in view of the public. We discuss money, toilets, separate bedrooms, visitors, family members, etc. I've had enough design clients raise the privacy issue on their own that I now assume it for all. There's no downside to that, and the others appreciate being asked.My wife has never been a problem. She's perfect. That's my story. I'm sticking to it. This discussion was with regard to someone else's wife.If I have one problem in this regard, it's the clients who publicize things more than I'd prefer. With forums and blogs and websites, some choose to make even their private lives public. Well, as part of designing for them, I'll show them ideas that are beyond what they want just to help them find the boundaries on their likes and dislikes. I sure don't want every communication and design iteration displayed and commented on in a blog, or it'll change the way I work.
As a design professional you have, by law in most states if you're licensed, and morally even if you're not, a "fiduciary" responsibility to your clients.
From Wikipedia:
A fiduciary duty is the highest standard of care imposed at either equity or law. A fiduciary is expected to be extremely loyal to the person to whom they owe the duty (the "principal"): they must not put their personal interests before the duty, and must not profit from their position as a fiduciary, unless the principal consents. The fiduciary relationship is highlighted by good faith, loyalty and trust, and the word itself originally comes from the Latin fides, meaning faith, and fiducia.
When a fiduciary duty is imposed, equity requires a stricter standard of behaviour than the comparable tortious duty of care at common law. It is said the fiduciary has a duty not to be in a situation where personal interests and fiduciary duty conflict, a duty not to be in a situation where their fiduciary duty conflicts with another fiduciary duty, and a duty not to profit from their fiduciary position without express knowledge and consent. A fiduciary cannot have a conflict of interest. It has been said that fiduciaries must conduct themselves "at a level higher than that trodden by the crowd."[
So, I think that includes confidentiality unless the client explicitly states otherwise.
Gee, too bad you had to wait 44 posts to get such a good answer up!;)
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I usually just hang over in knots, but it is raining today so I can't do the yard work I had planned and have some extra time. So, I checked out BreakTime.
>So, I think that includes confidentiality unless the client explicitly states otherwise.There ya go!
The definition of fiduciary responsibility also highlights the important trust overall that persons place in us when we work with them, from design to finish. We often are entrusted in handling large sums of money, disbursing it and budgeting it responsibly, purchasing proper materials for the project on time and of the type and quality we promise. We also are entrusted often with full access to their home, inside and out. We have the ability to make their lives a pleasure for years to come, or to damage their financial future and their quality of life for years to come.Reading that post serves to remind me of the damage done to our trade by someone violating that public trust for their own temporal gain. That contractors cannot organize themselves well enough nationally to correct this problem amongst themselves does not serve to restore that public trust, nor improve the appreciation for our work.
Having read a little farther in the wikopedia entry for fiduciary, I saw that partnerships have a fiduciary duty between the partners.
Does this mean I cannot bad mouth my partners or that any conversations we have are confidential? I hope that this is not the case or we are all in violation of our fiduciary duties to each other.
Bad mouthing each other when your not in public, or the clients aren't around can be a good thing.
Bad mouthing each other in front of clients, or in public forums where it might get back to your clients or prospects, would seem to not make much business sense.
There are some other areas of our businesses that are similar to or connected to the design phase.Many lots here can be difficult to get permited, so I have acted as a liason for several people since finishing as chair of the Planning Board. I have either advised or acted as agent on behalf of...for a fee. Much of that work is public knowledge eventually but other discussions are expected to be as confidential as a lawyer or priest conversation./I also think the certain people expect more privacy than others. I have done design/build for five lawyers here and they seem to expect more discretion than other clients. It is probably from their background and habitually think that way.
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In this instance I think you are right. The basic fact that I am designing for somebody is rarely a matter oif privacy, but the deal about them being difficult could refledct on your reputation and what sort of clients are willing to trust you in the future.
My wife and I participate in our business and she has good sense, but stilll we treat each other with information on a need to klnow basis. It makes things easier to keep track of. I'm more the kind of trqansparent guy while she has all these instincts about who shouldknow what I just get confused. I'm no blabbermouth, but I just can't keep track of what is supposed to be secret so I ask her not to tell me any confidential information and I doi the same with her.
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sounds to me like you need to get DW under control and everything will fall into place.
"sounds to me like you need to get DW under control..."
Would you also like to take a crack at HOW to do that ???
(-:
Knowing where to lead people is not the same as convincing them to follow you. [D.H. Everett]
nope!
Had an experience a while back that taught me a good lesson, BH. We were doing an attic conversion for a client that dropped a bundle on fixtures, including very pretty and veryyyy expensive pendant lights. The painter, who I know quite well, was working and was not being delicate around the fixtures so I commented to him on how much they cost.
A few days later the HO took me aside and commented that his wife was very upset because (she thought) I was gossipping to the painter about how much they spent. I explained to him the context of the conversation and things settled down. But since then I don't say boo to anyone but my closest personal friends about any job we have, not even if I keep it anonymous. Just not worth the potential for misunderstanding or hurt feelings...
PaulB
<<So back to the question - Is privacy assumed when you're working for people?
Or is this no big deal, and I'm blowing it out of proportion?>>
I'm not clear about how your wife arrived at the conclusion that a particular client was being difficult. Did she hear it from you or whom? Or did the client behave poorly in her presence? I she heard it from you, the solution is pretty obvious.
Part of the problem is the question of propriety in a place of business vs. a private home. I believe that a client has a greater latitude for expressions of opinion about my work in the it's natural setting, the work place. If he's unhappy about something, he's got a right to express it openly in my office. If my office is in our home, then my wife and I better have an understanding about business behavior vs social propriety and where the boundaries lie. If we can't agree on that issue, then my office will have to move outside our home.
She has a right to her opinion about what is acceptable behavior in our home, even if it's within my office space. So, in effect, you have to protect your client from your wife, funny as that sounds. You either have to have an agreement with your wife about boundaries which satisfies you both or you gotta move your office out of the house. And no hard feelings, either way.
The et-ti-ket lady has given her opin-ion. Y'all are dismissed.
"I'm not clear about how your wife arrived at the conclusion that a particular client was being difficult. Did she hear it from you or whom?"
Yup - She heard it from me.
Like I said - It was true. But I had no idea she would repeat what I said outside of the house.
In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low, and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now...The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus. [John F. Kennedy]
"I had no idea she would repeat what I said outside of the house."and you've maried HOW LONG?
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Boss, I cannot come up with a delicate way to put this, but I basically arrived at the same conclusion that Bobbi did.
I think the real underlying issue here is your relationship with your spouse. What exactly is her reasoning for either wanting to yank your chain, or even worse, simply not respecting you or caring enough about you to give your desires any consideration?
" If I were a carpenter"
My take is that you don't want it to get out that a customer is "difficult" if you want to keep the customer. Since you can't keep a muzzle on your wife, best put one on yourself.
I might be a little more sensitive to this than you should be, but I depend on repeat business and word-of-mouth advertising.
George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Privacy is of paramount importance, especially if you are in a small town. Your customers expect and deserve it, even if they don't ask. Good luck getting that message through to your wife.
Have a good day
CLiffy
I once heard that a person I'd hire occationally thought I was a pain in the ars. I overheard the conversation between two other people in that firm while out to dinner.
That was the last time I used 'em and quit reffering others.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
What some may find difficult others may not. My advice is do not tell your wife about the work you are doing. Then she will not have to worry about telling someone.
Sounds like you need to have a discussion with your wife.
A few years ago I did a lot of work for a person that a lot of people know. I did not tell anyone I was doing work for him nor the location. Even though the work is done I still do not tell anyone his name or the location.
As contractors we need to protect the privacy of our clients. They are trusting us to do the work with an expectation that we will keep confidences about what they told us in private.
Imagine hiring a lawyer and then he tells everyone he meets about your business.
Edited 4/18/2007 10:36 pm by gb93433
Most all other professions that require a development of trust and a disclosure (whether incidental to the job or part of the process) expect and often require a certain level of confidentiality. I have had more than one client request installation of a secret space behind a closet or a hiding place for a safe. Wouldn't you think there's some trust inherent in that? We see our customers at their most vulnerable place and they trust us. Would we rummage through their dressers and closets and disclose the contents to the neighbors? We often know their financial status, would we disclose those details as well? Obviously, the answer to these questions is no, but it points up the position of trust our work entails.I'm sorry your wife doesn't seem to value trust, or is willing to bargain that for gossip points. I don't know that I'd go so far as to say she's being passive aggressive since I don't know her or you, but you certainly have a trust problem with her.Like others said, I agree, you're going to have to find a compromise yourself as she apparently isn't going to cooperate with you for whatever reason. Either you move your operations out of the house, keep your business off limits to her ears, or both if necessary.The advice of "controlling" her I'd ignore though. Women are people, not dogs on a freakin' leash. Attempting to control another individual, particularly an adult is most often a futile waste of time and effort. And makes for a pretty miserable marriage as well.As for attorney disclosing a client's information; he/she could be censured, or permanently disbarred, depending on the damage done.
I am assuming you directed your reply toward the person who started the thread and not me.
Yes, sorry about the failure to make the proper direction.
"We often know their financial status, would we disclose those details as well? Obviously, the answer to these questions is no, but it points up the position of trust our work entails."
Interesting point. But you can be sure that if your company gets in financial difficulty, or has liens put on projects, clients will probably have no compunction about telling everyone they meet about it.
I make sure everyone who works for my clients has a really good fix on their financial situation. (And surely you're not serious about it not being a good idea to go through their dressers and closets...)
"(And surely you're not serious about it not being a good idea to go through their dressers and closets...)"No, I was using hyperbole, something I'm prone to do at times.
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was joking.
For the record, I have only gone through a few of my client's dressers, and none of their closets.
We had one client, actually we still are doing other work for her; went into her house while we were putting on a dormer on the back. All over the place she had her credit card records and bills laying around in her kitchen, although she knew we'd be walking through the house.Another time, I sent my partner out to finish fixing a plumbing issue with a different client (yeah don't ask -- you know, 'small job' --- put in a new sink) anyway, he came back to tell me that where the leak was found the day before, she had hung up a bunch of lingere to dry all around where he was to work. I told him the first night we were on the job that she was obviously flirting with him. I sent him out there that night alone with this in mind, keep her hoping and happy to pay us; keep me out of the way. We got paid.
No big deal. Think about proportion.
How much privacy should a person expect when there're having a plan drawn?
We are looking at building a house. It's not a big secret, but I would certainly appreciate discretion because (1)--the location is a long ways away and indicates that we intend to move and (2)--it's a second home and indicates a level of economic success that many where we are have not enjoyed and we don't want to offend anyone. Unfortunately someone asked my daughter (who has gotten in trouble repeatedly for lying and withholding information) where I was and so she told the whole truth. (Fortunately my husband is pretty good at damage control and was able to spin it just a touch so that at least everyone isn't worried about our moving in the near future.)
My Wife doesn't think it's any big deal. But it bothers me - Especially if she's telling people that particular customers are being difficult.
If this is the only significant issue in your marriage, then you've had a number of suggestions on how to minimize her interaction with/knowledge of your customers. If there are other issues, perhaps some joint conversations with your pastor/priest or a good marriage counselor are in order. (Note that finding a good counselor is as hard as finding a good contractor!! Be careful!)
Kathleen
DW and I had a lovely little chat about this issue last night.She denied everything and is really pissed off. But I think she understands the problem and will keep her mouth shut from now on.
Live as though it's your last day on earth. Someday you'll be right [Robert Anthony]
I like having my DW around when client's come by. She is a much better better judge of character than me, especially about where the power lies with couples, which is really useful if I am devoting a lot of time to trying to convince the wrong one.
We live in a small community too, where gossip provides a valuable way of letting people know when they have been out of line. When my wife goes off about someone, I'm pleased as punch.
The solution is let your wife know how wonderful your client is. The same for EVERY client. Let her spread THAT rumor.
Just curious. How does your DW feel about you discussing her blabbermouth habits with thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people? Do you think she had any expectation that relationship issues would remain private between the two of you? Remember when you point a finger, you've got three pointing back at you.
You do business with Bosses' wife?!?!?!?SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
"How does your DW feel about you discussing her blabbermouth habits with thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people?"
Why don't you call her and ask what she thinks about it.
There's only one way to look thin: hang out with fat people.
Privacy? Best to define the issue better.
Virtually any project of note has a huge sign out front, where everyone involved brags of their part.
In a less formal way, whenever (insert famous person here) buily their mansion up at Lake Tahoe, everyone who played any role made sure everyone else knew they were on the project. More than simply saying something like "I'm doing the roof," they were most eager to share that the place had three bowling alleys, 5 miles of heated driveway, etc.
Of course,ancient rulers often had construction crews murdered for this very reason.
Saying that you're working for XYZ, or have a certain project, is both expected and proper. How else will folks learn of the work that you do? A little pride can be a good thing.
Even going beyond that, and stating that a job is problematic, can be proper. Others will appreciate learning of new code quirks, and deadbeat customers, before they're out on a limb.
So where does the privacy start? Perhaps where danger to the customer begins. I know of one instance where a customer just had to show his painter the expensive (legal) collection of fully automatic weapons and gold bullion in his basement vault. The painter spoke in wonder of it at the local bar .... word got around, and some serious 'good fellas' decided to pay the house a visit. (Police were tipped off, a shoot-out ensued, and there were some deaths). That painter should have kept his mouth shut.
Or, in my own case ... I traveled extensively in the 80's, where I picked up a smattering of some unusual languages. Last summer, a customer of mine had several seriously trained guard dogs. Making a wild guess, I addressed the dogs in one of those languages... and Fido calmed down. Not completely off-guard, but enough that I could work near him. Now, I am not about to let the word out that Mr. X has dogs that lay down if you say "mashed potatoes!" No one needs to know that.
So, discretion is not a bad thing. If someone asks if I'm working a particular job, well, why not admit it. If they ask how much I'm charging, well, that's likely none of their business. Am I sorry I took the job? Probably a fair question. Am I having trouble getting paid? I'd rent a billboard if I had the cash!
Is privacy assumed when you're working for people?
Such a good question.
Especially when many of the documents have to filed with governmental agencies subject to public records laws.
In my own case, I've done that, but it was extra, much extra (and the cost to me for additional specific liability for that project, too, on top of everything else).
Personally, I've done some jobs where we "pseudonymed" the clients, so that they could keep their privacy. Other projects were just "unlisted number" type projects--muni records contain the correct info and all, but you'd need a really, really sharp skip tracer to find them.
If I've done any work beyond that, well, of course, naturally, I'd not be at liberty to discuss it <g>.
I don't see it as a privacy issue. More along the lines word gets back to the customer and they take it as an insult! Then you could get fired or at least some tough words from the customer.
Sounds like someone doesn't have enough to keep them busy.... (not you).. :-)
I generally look at my interactions with clients in the same vein as I would want a lawyer to consider lawyer/client confidientiality with me. If they want to talk about it, fine. But you aren't going to hear details from me without a need to know.
I think you're justified. You talk to your wife, of course, and business, work, the days events, come up. But things that involve work and clients, and especially things that, if they got out, could create even a perception that would be detrimental, she oughta just keep those conversations boxed up in the living room. And I dont think its so blatantly obvious that it might not need explaining. I dont think shes probably out to do anyone harm. Just, what do we call them now, polite reminders?
Or you could solve it the way I do. Just quit talking to your wife.
Yeah, thats a joke.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs