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I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me how to apply a paster medallion to a thincoat plaster ceiling.The plastering is not done yet and my plasterer is not sure of the proper way to attach. He is very good at creating plaster mouldings, but he has never attached a precast medallion before.
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Replies
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Hi Jeff,
Just set it in Durabond 90 and place a temp. support under it for a day.
Gabe
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Sure,
You can use Durabond 90. You will need to also hand out hardhats at the door for your visitors.
You'll need to explain to them that the medallion --- actually they are Centerpieces, medallions hang on the wall --- was applied with a weak form of plaster that has no bonding properties or strength to hold the weight of the centerpiece.
Or you can do this.....
Go to the HD and get a bottle of PVA. Most larger HD have a concrete or plaster adhesive. Just be sure that it's ADHESIVE and not ADMIXTURE. These are two different beasts.
Push the centerpiece up on the ceiling where it will hang and mark aroung the circumference of the piece on the ceiling. This will tell you the bounderies of the centerpiece. Paint the PVA in this area.
Paint the PVA on the back of the centerpiece also. Let the PVA set until it is either tacky or dried. You have up to three days so don't fret.
On the ceiling mark out where the ceiling joists are. If the piece is large enough you can probably get two or three joists that will be directly behind where the centerpeice will be.
Put the centerpiece back up to the ceiling and put a mark on the edge of the centerpeice where the joists will go behind. Take the centerpiece down and draw a line across the face of the centerpiece to show you where the joists will be behind it.
Pick areas on the face of the centerpeice that is rather flat and crosses the line you made where the joists are.
Using a one inch boring bit drill a hole, about 1/8th inch deep in these flat areas. This will be used for screws that go into the joists. Before I forget, you will also need to buy a small quantity of plaster washers from Charles Street Supply and drywall screws long enough to go through the centerpiece and into the joists at least 1/2 inch. You don't need to go over board with the holes ya know. About four to six will be fine for average centerpeices. If the centerpeice is in parts (a one part centerpiece is known as a "pancake" centerpiece) or if the parts are rather small you will not need to use washers, so just a hole for the screw will suffice.
Now you that are at this point you can hang the centerpeice.
Mix a bit of Vinyl to Vinyl wallpaper adhesive with a bit of plaster and water. You'll need to spread this concoction over the back of the centerpeice so be sure to mix enough quantity.
The wallpaper adhesive should retard the setting of the plaster of paris enough to give you time to do your work so don't get in too much of a hurry.
Spread the plaster mix around the edge of the centerpeice and a few blobs in the center. Push the centerpiece into place.
Use the screws, with the plaster washers, to tighten the centerpiece to the ceiling.
Now you have a bunch of plaster that has squeezed out from around the edge of the centerpiece. Now you can be mad at me for not telling you to cover the floor COMPLETELY before you start! Believe me, this is messy and this stuff sticks to your skin as good as it does to the ceiling.
Now use a square tool to trim around the periphery of the centerpiece, being sure to fill any holes or voids left between the centerpiece and the ceiling. Use a white bristle brush dipped in water to help hide and feather the plaster around the edge.
Now that the centerpiece is up and secure you then mix some plaster and water and, using a square tool, point up the hole where the screws are. Take your time and do a perfect job of hiding these holes. If you don't they will show up pretty badly when you paint the centerpeice.
Before you attempt to install the centerpeice be sure that it is oriented correctly. Centerpieces have compass points on them. These points may be a set of large roses or other ornament on them. Be sure that when you install it that these compass points are set to the room so the centerpiece looks square to the four walls.
There ya go!
A professional job that will never come down....
Brian Ewing
http://www.ornamentalplaster.com
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Hi Brewskie,
Ya sure know how to complicate a simple job and scare away the DIY's.
If you are what you say you are then you know durabond 90 will hold up quiet well. If durabond 90 has no adhesive properties then tell me how come it's so much fun to clean off floors?
K.I.S.S.
Gabe.
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K.I.S.S. = F.U.B.A.R.
There's a right way to do things, then there's a wrong way.
If you want to tell people that wrong way, their mistake is on your shoulder not theirs.
Would you honestly sit there and tell me you would trust your method 100%, no matter what size the centerpiece is? Give me a break!
The method I disclosed would cover 100% of the types and styles of installable centerpieces.
A little rosette would be a different story, but even this would require plaster of paris. Durbond90 is not meant for holding anything up against a ceiling.
I think you need to study before you post about something which you don't have a clue.
If you don't have a clue or are not sure what you are talking about you should be up front and say it.
As I said K.I.S.S. = F.U.B.A.R.
Brian Ewing
http://www.ornamentalplaster.com
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Good afternoon Brian,
Yes but there is also a simple inexpensive way to do something and a complicated expensive way to do it.
Most ornaments are made of foam with a plastered surface and don't weight squat. If the ornament in question was heavier, then the addition of a couple of screws into drywall anchors would do the job.
Like I said, based on the available information K.I.S.S.
Before, you give advise on how to hold up the Sistine Chapel consider that the job might be less demanding.
You seem to be under the impression that your work is more complicated than it really is, chill out.
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Gabe,
Granted, neither one of us thought to ask if the questioner was refering to installing a foam centerpiece. Which I myself should have asked. We are both guilty of this.
But even then Durabond90 is not the appropriate material to be installing foam centerpieces with.
These need to be instaled according to the manufacturers directions, which usually mean using a caulking material and screws.
There is no way that using ANY plaster type of material, including plaster of paris, would be appropriate for styro-foam. It sticks for a month or two then pops away. I've seen it happen.
Besides. If someone tells me their wanting to use a fake centerpiece (like styro-foam) I try to talk them out of it. I know I wouldn't want something that burns or catches fire so easily aroung MY electrical system. Just ask yourself..."Are these UL approved"? No? Why?
Brian Ewing (chilled out)
http://www.ornamentalplaster.com
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Hi Brian,
We both went out the gate too fast, Chilled out also.
Gabe.
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Gabe,
I am a DIYer with a 20 year Victorian renovation project. It seems to me that Brian is really just suggesting: 1. measuring, 2. marking, 3. mounting and caulking, 4. screwing to solid backing, and 5. filling screw holes. This cannot be complicated for a DIYer. If DIYers can't handle the above listed "complexity" then perhaps they should start with a simpler project than mounting heavy stuff on the ceiling of their homes.
Brewski's response was way cool for this DIYer!
With respect,
Steve K.
*Brewskie ; Could you explain how to make center pieces? Can you buy molds, what kind of plaster are they made of, etc? Pappy
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Jeff, if you're still reading... follow this man's advice. Brian is a noted authority on plaster and restoration, nice to see the "correct" way listed.
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Brewskie
Thanks for the great info. To begin with the centerpiece is solid plaster, about 36 inches in diameter and quite heavy to be hung off the ceiling. As for DIY, while I will always have something to learn, I have been a building and remodeling contractor for 22 years. I just have never had the pleasure of dealing with a precast centerpiece so I sought out the help from other pros. Glad you were there to help. Thanks again
Jeff
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Brian,
After drilling the countersinks for the plaster washers (by the way, after using six for the certerpiece, what does one do with the remaining thirty washers?), would you also consider pre-drilling for the drywall screw? Or will the screw drive through the plaster without cracking it?
*I might have something -- I have always used liquid nails and the finish gun to hold in place until the LN sets -- none have fallen down yet -- its a 2 minute job. dudley
*Hi Readers,I took the time to call the manufacturer's representative and confirmed that Durabond 90 is recommended for lamination.The proper mix is virtually impossible to remove from other gypsum products and the other materials will probably fail first.Like I said, you can do most projects a dozen ways from Sunday, some ways are easy and some are hard, which is best is what debates are made of.What Brian indicated regarding durabond 90 not having any bonding qualities was totally wrong nevertheless.fyiGabe
*Gabe,Putting aside the Durabond 90 adhesion issue, perhaps it's more germane to consider what is the best way to ensure a thirty-six inch solid plaster centerpiece stays put. Let's say that the Durabond 90 adheres tenaciously to the plaster skim coat on the ceiling. But what is the skim coat adhering to? A layer of sheetrock paper?Gluing AND screwing makes sense to me.
*Hi Barry,Yes, and once we established the possibility of the piece being larger and heavier than first thought of, I indicated that I would add screws in that case also.I think that the most common comment that I hear from clients watching tradesmen at work is " Gee what a neat trick to save time" because that's what is sold by a tradesman, his time.The more experienced he or she is, the larger the library of time saving practices they employ to do the same job.I actually agreed with most of what what being done to install the ornament. It was simply the comment from someone who claims to be a proffessional, that Durabond 90 would be dangerous to visitors because it had no adhesive properties.Remember your comment about the paper failing would also happen even if you used epoxy. Never underestimate the holding capacities of most construction materials.If we were to fear monger everything we do, nothing would be done. Remember all that holds up several hundred pounds of drywall in every room of your house is nails or screws that cover less than 1% of the surface up there.Gabe
*Gabe-Give it up. This forum is for helping individuals with answers based on actual knowlege and experiance. If you have a suggestion on a particular question don't try to come across as though you have the authority of Moses when it is so obvious you have a marginal knowlege of the subject. Someone out there may take a method you so flippantly suggest and use it. This particular topic has a real safety issue involved, not to mention the liability and expense if one of these centerpieces would ever let loose. Is it that important to your ego to see your name all over this site? And to keep defending your position despite your lack of expertise in this area? And by the way, maybe next time you should do your research before you answer the question. I think most professionals participating in Breaktime can easily see through these kinds of issues, but I worry that some homeowners and DIYs may take some suggestions at face value. Please do your homework and treat the "easy" answer with a little skepticism. Remember- "Buyer Beware" applies to this arena as well as the real world. John
*JeezIt sure is nice when someone with actual hands on experience in a project gives first hand information on how to do something. Nice post Brewski.You know, I don't bother to Answer most of posts unless I have specific knowlege of the project. If I don't know what I'm doing, I would probably answer like:Gee, I've never put up a precast plaster medalion but I would guess that you would........That way we can take the information with a grain of salt, and when someone with actual information provides the correct way, the poster isn't embarrassed.
*Hi John,Nothing to give up to. I have installed decorative plaster pieces with Durabond 90 and never had a piece fall down nor will they fall down.I've done churches and work on the parliament buildings, all with ornate plaster work. I identify myself and I don't hide behind any nicknames.I'll make no apologies to you or anyone else for my experiences and comments.Instead of your useless personal attack, how about simply stating your experiences with plaster ornaments and how you would attach them to the ceiling.
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Don,
There are many ways to make centerpeices.
They can be made in-situ, or in place, using a template. This template would be run over fresh plaster, right on the ceiling, and acts like a screed. Areas within this template, known as sinkages, allow room for the various ornamentation.
Another way is to create the centerpiece on a bench, such as a "pancake" centerpiece. This would be created with plasteline clay or water based clay or can even be made using a template (on the bench). The mold would be made over this and cast in plaster of paris.
Yet another method would be to create several smaller parts that would be installed to create the whole. Many Victorian style centerpeices are of this variety.
IMO there are three basic varieties.
1. The pancake variety. Which is at the low end of quality.
2. The multi-part variety. Which is nicer than the single piece "pancake" because of the complexity that can be achieved.
3. The run in-situ variety. This is the "high road" of decorative ornament. Everything from Adams style to Georgian can be created by running in place. Here is a LINK to a picture of one of my centerpieces that was run in place.
Within these varieties there are a zillion ways to create centerpieces.
My personal favorite is the run in place type with "ventilated" ornamentation, like the one in the link above. Ventilated means that the ornament is highly undercut, creating a shadow behind it. It makes the ornament look a bit more heavy, but when done correctly it's awesome!
As for finding someone to sell you a mold....good luck! I don't know of anyone, off the top of my hat, that would be willing to sell you their molds. Because once you have the molds you can create dozens of casts......that's income ya see...
Brian
http://www.ornamentalplaster.com
*Barry,The only reason I like to use plaster washers is because of all the little holes in them. They make great washers for hanging heavy centerpieces because the plaster gets into the holes and gets a mechanical key when pointing up. I guess one could use a different washer, but I don't know of a better way to do it than with plaster washers.Doesn't Charles St. Supply sell smaller quanities? I thought they sold a small batch for testing and stuff...Yes, When screwing plaster to any surface it is always best to pre-drill. However, you can use the screw as a drill bit as you go. Turn the drill on high speed and work the screw slowly, but I wouldn't recommend this for just anybody to do.Brianwww.ornamentalplaster.com
*Gabe,I was tempted to not respond to your drivel. But, alas, I am human after all! LOLIf you will read what I said "weak form of plaster that has no bonding properties or strength to hold the weight of the centerpiece". You notice I said "weight of the centerpiece"? Durabond90 has a bit of PVA mixed in...not much, just a little....But definetly not enough to use on its own for this purpose, even with screws. The reason is because, when it comes time to point up, Durabond90 just wont do as good a job as plaster will. If you think about it.....it's the screws that are really holding it up anyway.This idea of using Durabond90 for hanging something with the weight of a plaster centerpiece is really "Hometime". If you know what I mean.....LOLNext time you call the Durabond people ask them how many centerpieces they have installed with this stuff and whether they will gaurrantee it for hanging centerpieces, ok?Brian Ewingwww.ornamentalplaster.com
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Hi Brian,
Glad to know you're human, noticed that you're passionate about your trade, and that's good too.
The only question that I asked the rep. was if I had been irresponsible in using Durabond 90 to set the plastered ornaments on previous projects and he indicated that the product was commonly used for this purpose.
In my work, I have to depend a lot on tech. info. from representatives. I don't always have time to do a lot of experiments.
Your postings over the years indicate that plastering and ornaments make up a lot of your life so I have to respect that.
Gabe
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Great.....!!!!
Now I feel like a Schmo!
I was only trying to be informative.
I've had a lot of people work with me on projects. Usually after the first few jobs they always seem to know more than me! I hate this! It bugs me that when some people has done something once or twice that they are now the pro. I'm not implying that you fit this category, but when you recommended Durabond90 I thought it safe to assume that you were either not trained in the craft or not highly experienced. No harm meant (other then the "drivel" part, sorry), I hope none taken.
There are zillions of ways to do most anything. I just try to keep with what's is known (to me anyway) as being the best way or most affective. But the best way is hardly ever the easiest way.
Sure. I know ways to hang ornamental plaster that is half the ease which I would post on a BB such as this. But when someone is starting to learn you don't want to give them the "easy road". You want them to have the knowledge of the "right road". The easy stuff comes with experience.
As for plastering and ornaments making up a lot of my life....they're my whole life. I breathe this stuff.....figuratively and literally! LOL
Brian
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Morning Brian,
If you don't mind, I'll add your name to our trade database for plaster restoration work, we consult on a lot of historical government projects and plaster has always been a sore spot.
Gabe
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Gabe,
Oh no!
Not another database!!!!
Kidding!
You can tell I'm a Libertarian............
I'd be happy to be in your list of consultants/craftsmen......
Thank you,
Brian
http://www.ornamentalplaster.com
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Consider it done Brian,
This is what happens when two libertarians meet without the secret handshake.
Gabe
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Brian, thanks for the info. Are you in the mid-west,or west, or east? Imay need a couple of centers in a year or so.
*Thanx for the interest Don.I'm in NC.I try not to spam other people's boards. But you asked a direct question so I hope I am forgiven. You can find me easiest at http://www.ornamentalplaster.comBrian
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I was wondering if anyone out there could tell me how to apply a paster medallion to a thincoat plaster ceiling.The plastering is not done yet and my plasterer is not sure of the proper way to attach. He is very good at creating plaster mouldings, but he has never attached a precast medallion before.