Have a 90-year-old house complete with palster walls so transparent you can see the 2-by and lathe ghosting. In any event, it’s old; painted over wallpaper is peeling and there is no insulation in the walls.
I want to remove all the plaster and lathe in the room, back prime (and paint?) the exterior sheathing (good idea?), run new wiring, swithches and receptacles for electric service, insulate (was at HD last night .23 cents/ft2 for R-13 roll, .52 cents/ft2 for R-15 batts, which seemed high [the R-15]–this was for Certainteed brand–unfaced. Are there better deals and quality on insulation?), install new windows, vapor barrier and new drywall.
The plan is to clean the floor (old wood floor right on top of joists) with a mop, and then cover entire area and wall heating duct with 6 mil poly. Then cover it again with another layer of poly to aid in clean up. The entry room outside the arch leading to this room would also have two layers of poly (lead paint) and the archway would be sealed off and lead to a clean area in the adjoining room. All the waste debris would go out through the window on a chute to a dumpster.
Tyvex hooded siut with booties, approved respirator and goggles while working. A fan installed at the window with a high-efficiency furnace filter attached to keep the crap from blowing out the window. A craftsman shop vac with a HEPA filter and an extension hose attached to the exhaust going through the window outdoors with a filter element attached to prevent lead dust outside.
Was thinking of sawzalling or jigsawing through plaster and lathe and remving it in sheets. What are some good methods of accomplishing this? The room is approximately 18′ x 14′ with a 9′ ceiling. How long would it take two guys to demo this and clean-up the debris so that the next phase could be started?
Thanks!
Replies
IMO, this is one of the small class of problems which really can be most effectively solved by throwing money at them.
knock the plaster off and dump ,then remove the lath....IMHO
If you want to protect the floor, I would put down 1/4" plywood and tape the seams. (Use any sheathing that lays flat-maybe you need some ply for another project-recycle). Hard to broom and shovel plaster off plastic. Position drywall buckets along the wall, start at the top and knock off the plaster........some of it will land in the buckets.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Skip the sawsall, and use hammers, prybars, etc. for removal. Get some large garbage containers. By prying everthing off of the wall and ceiling in chunks, you keep the dust down to a minimum. Sweep up whatever you can after all of the larger pieces are removed. A shopvac without a proper filter will just spread things around. Ive found a garden fork to be a great tool for removing plaster and lathe but the regular prybars should suffice for one room.
How long should it take? If the two guys I sent in didn't have the place gutted and spotless before noon, I'd fire them.
Be Constructive
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
"How long should it take? If the two guys I sent in didn't have the place gutted and spotless before noon, I'd fire them. "
Are you kidding me? For someone who probably doesn't do this full time and doesn't have shoulders the size of the hulk, hefting a pry bar over your head on 9' ceilings for 2 hours will put you out, let alone for 8 (from another post).
and where's the allotment of time for dumping, breaking (it gets damn hot in those respirators), and "de-nailing" of the existing plaster (which will probably take two hours alone)?
I wouldn't fool yourself into thinking that 8 hours is enough. it may take twice as long, or 4-times as long (as i learned in school) as you estimated (coming from an amature anyway).
j
Homework time.
Greetings sor,
Many topics over insulation price and quality have been addressed here on Breaktime a number of different times in the past.
If you scroll down in the lower left corner of your screen there is a search function that will take you to previous threads dealing with whatever you type in the search bar.
If you type in 'fiberglass', 'foamboard', 'insulation' or other keywords of the subject matter you'll get a good supply of data from those old threads.
Cheers
Don't use plastic to protect the floor -- it's hard to sweep and it will be punctured by the myriad plaster scraps and lath nails. Recommend thin PW or masonite or red building paper. Tape the joints with wide duct or masking tape. The mess and dust will be horrendous, guaranteed. Get good respirators.
plaster first ..
then lath.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Get a fan and mount it in the window. Put that sucker on HIGH and pull the dust outside. Wear a respirator.
I have had good success saving floors by 1/4" plywood and duct taping the seams.
Rent a dumpster and just use a hammer or pry bar to remove the plaster first then the lathe.
You should be able to do this job by yourself in less than 8 hours.
Cheers!
Dark Magneto
go to some auto body shops and pick up some cardboard boxes that hoods, fenders came in. tape them together (you may want two layers depending on the quality of the cardboard) and knock the plaster off first and dispose of it before you start on the laths.
I've heard it suggested that you get the plaster off first by swinging a piece of 2x (say 2x6) at the plaster. The plaster (it says here) peels away in sheets on the rebound.
I removed a plaster ceiling before I heard this advice. I tried removing the plaster first before the lath, chipping away with hammer and chisel (didn't want to just hammer the plaster because of vibrations spreading to other rooms). But it was real slow. Ended up taking down the whole thing at once with a crow bar, get it in between the cracks/drilled holes and pull hard. Much faster. In retrospect I wished I'd left the lath up, I then had to deal with the lath buried between joists and wall (I was not taking down the plaster on the walls). That was the hard part.
I just smack the head of my estwing onto the wall sideways about a million times ...
right quick way of breaking the keys off ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I just recently gutted the upstairs of my 125 year old home drywall over lath and plaster. Here’s what I found that works and doesn’t:
Number one, dust is going to get everywhere…plan on it. That being said, we minimized some of the dust by hanging wet sheets over every opening. Fans out the windows. Good respirators/eye protection. You will still get crusty boogers.
We didn’t bother putting anything on the floors (wood on joists), because we were going to refinish them anyway….and removing the lath and plaster just helped with the “patina.”
The plaster was removed first using a pneumatic air hammer with a wide chisel (about $35.00 at HD). The chisel was used to get back behind the plaster and then ride along the lath…If you have access to the ceiling (or the other side of a wall) you can just use a small 3lb sledge. Removal of the plaster was easy.
Clean up consisted of shoveling with a flat shovel into a chute (a cardboard tube for cement) into an awaiting dumpster. Then sweep.
Once all the plaster was removed, we pulled off the lath…doing it this way makes clean up easier…as it is not as hard to gather each material individually…Then sweep. Then vacuum. Then mop.
Once the house is gutted, you can do all necessary framing for windows etc. Your house may have “balloon framing” so you could take this time to install some fireblocks too.
While the house is open, you may want to consider taking care of any electrical upgrades (including TV, phone, computer), plumbing, and insulation…speaking of insulation, I would seriously consider using a sprayed in closed cell polyurethane—on an old house, it will help seal all the drafty cracks and act as vapor barrier. There is some anecdotal evidence that sprayed in foam insulation will help with your paint on the exterior as it will help moister from getting in behind the paint.—no need to back prime.
Edited 1/31/2005 5:29 pm ET by PNUTIII
I just finished this process about like you (PNUT) described. I wish I knew about the auto parts box thing. That would have been great. All our windows are nailed shut so we couldn't open any. It was a dusty mess thats for sure. I'm still cleaning. I did finish last night. Start to frame tomorrow. However I would like to upgrade the wiring in the walls I removed. I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN. We will have a pro come in a future date to finish/wire the new addition to our home. But while I have the walls open I could run the new wire up into the ceiling for the electrician later. What size/type of wire is recommended for outlets/switches (currently we have the old, thick black stuff)
THanks-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Just a pic I took recently. I'm not sure, but do you think that stud should be bent like that???? ;-)
Hopefully i'm not derailing this thread, I figured if we are all doing the same project why start another.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Cardboard, plywood, drop sheets anything but poly.
For dust control, get a couple of those 20" square box fans, and tape furnace filters to the sucking side of them.
Start by pulling all the baseboards and casing trim. Clean the floor and lay something like newspaper or poly for scratch protection, then on top of that you need something you can shovel up broken plaster from. I have a bunch of crappy old luan paneling that I use for that.
The fastest thing for getting plaster off the lath is a straight blade D-handle shovel. Bash it directly into the plaster to get a starting point, then use it like a giant scraper to get between the plaster and the lath. First do the bottom 18" of all the walls. That way the bottoms are done before plaster falling from above blocks access to them. Stand to one side as you go higher on the walls so the plaster doesn't fall on your head. Start the ceiling with care, and stand under bare lath while you do the rest of it. When all the lath is scraped clean, shovel out the plaster and start pulling the lath. If you're doing both sides of a wall, or have attic access for a ceiling, the easy thing is to push it off from the back. Given an attic to work from, knocking down some plaster from above is an even safer way to get a starting place.
-- J.S.
Edited 2/2/2005 6:39 pm ET by JOHN_SPRUNG
I agree with the flat shovel. A coal scuttle works good.One caution about refinishing: Depth of trim casings around windows and doors. With a plaster system, the frames were used as the grounds for the plaster, which resulted in a flat wall at the window/door on which to attach the trim. I have never had any luck trying to place drywall and get the frames to be level with the drywall. Now I just call the plasterers to come back.Hello, Richard? Bryan here. Send Yuri over to fix my mistakes...
You may want to try removing the plaster with a 2 x 4. six feet long.
Hit the plaster many times with small and light strokes and only between the beams. One stroke every 4'-6"- you see.
This way the lath behind it will act as a spring and push the plaster off.
You better get a helmet. Some times the plaster look's like is not coming out EZ but the whole ceiling or large areas can be removed in minutes instead hours.
Avoid hitting the 2x4 direct to the beams. And for the lath try to insert the 2x4s between the beams and pull them out.
And don't forget the helmet.
Good luck.
I'll probably get dinged for this -- here goes anyhow. leave the plaster where ever you are able to. I was able to do this in several walls and ceilings by drywalling over the plaster. Not everywhere but I did it where I could. I just marked off the studs or joists and hung 1/2" using some 2.5" screews. Loosing an inch to the room size was no big deal and no one notices the ceiling half inch closer. I had to put in new windows anyhow, so building out and reframing the windows needed done anyhow. Even if you can only leave the ceiling in place it will save lots of work, lots of cleanup. Ok ding away, tell him/me why he shouldn't just cover lathe and plaster.
I'll even go you one better. Keep the plaster, stabilize it with glue where you can reach the back, and screws and washers elsewhere. Rake out the cracks and patch them with EasySand 90. Forget the drywall, fix up what you've got.
Of course it's a judgement call. If you have lots of water damage and cracks that may be too much work.
-- J.S.
On the subject of keeping the dust cleanup lower risk, I was palnning to purchase a HEPA filter for a Craftsman shop-vac, while hooking up a drywall "wet bucket" container set-up on an exhaust hose from the vac leading outside with perhaps another hepa filter "attached (jury-rigged)" to the exhaust hose.
What do 5- and 10-yard dumpsters run in your area?
Thanks again for all the good advice!
A word of caution: a hepa filter on a shopvac does not make a hepa vac. Fine particles will leak out of parts of the vac.
All of the above. John Sprung has it right. Shovel is the best. Wack it to break all the keys then shove it behind the lath and just start pulling lath and plaster off in large sections. A large claw wrecking bar works well too. Dirty dirty. Masks, fans and goggles.
Carpet the floor. Yup, carpet the floor. Get old carpet from a dumpster or wherever, completely cover the floor with it overlapping any seams. It's easy to shovel the crumbs up off the carpet and then roll it up and out she goes. That last part can be heavy! Carpet loaded with plaster dust and crumbs... Beats the crap out of cardboard or plastic.
Pretty much what Jeff Buck said.
I like a long crow bar to beat the plaster to break the keys, then once a hole is started I use a combination of sand shovel, crow bar and flat bar to pull everything down. A lot of times you can get the plaster to come down almost entirely without removing much lath. If I can do that I shovel up the plaster and then go to work on the lath with a flat bar. I try to get as much of the lath nail out with the lath as I can, then the remaining nails I pound in. Get 'em all or it'll be hell on your knuckles later.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
I agree with whoever said to put plywood down to protect the floors and make it easy to shovel up. I had a demo job like this and I took and old wrecking bar (about 3' long with a shepherd's crook at one end) and wrapped the straight end with the spongy tape like you put on racketball racket handles. Then you just use that to smash down through between studs. The tape helps cushion your hands. The plaster falls off the lath and the lath gets ripped from the studs. Use sort of a pulling action as you slash downward. I could demo a room in a relatively short time. It's better to have lath and plaster separate. Wear a good dust mask and gloves and eye protection. I was on a second floor and had to carry everything across a roof and dump it off, so I bundled the lath in bundles that would sit in a wheel barrow and tied with twine. (Lath makes great kindling, if you don't mind nails in the ash.)
Yep, separate plaster then do the lathe.
I'm lazy.
For the plaster I like to get a row of roughneck style trash cans up against the walls. Rectangular is best is you got 'em.
The bulk of the plaster falls into the cans and can be dragged out. Saves a step with less shoveling.
Caffine and loud rock helps knock out that ugly job faster too.
And don't make a habit out of it, you'll live longer.
"Have a 90-year-old house complete with palster walls so transparent you can see the 2-by and lathe ghosting. In any event, it's old; painted over wallpaper is peeling and there is no insulation in the walls."
If the plaster is mostly in tact, consider applying a veneer layer of drywall (or blueboard) over it. Less work, less mess. For insulation, you could blow cells behind the plaster, and get better results than with the FG batts.
I found an old weight lifting bar is a great tool for removing plaster along with the lath. I wore a respirator, googles and did the fan in the window. I am replacing the wood floor, so i didn't care much about covering it.
You can knock a good size hole in the wall with a hammer, get the bar up or down behind the wall and then pull forward... the lath and plaster will come off together. big chunks, it goes fast, but there is no regard for un-messiness. it's nasty.
I had a guy leave behind a tool that looked like a garden hoe, but it's flat. Like a paint scraper, but it has a long handle. That thing is great for removing the plaster from the lath. Just slide it up the wall and peel the plaster away.
here's a pic of the bar (along with a piece of wood i used), it's bent not much good for holding weights but great for removing plaster and lath
Been a lot of good advice here particularly about not using poly alone.
I've had great success using poly on the bottom and then topping that with cardboard. 1/4 plywood sounds good but why pay for it? I usually go to my local appliance store and get a bunch of refrigerator, washer and dryer boxes. The cardboard is thicker than your normal box and the large size makes covering a room quick. Cut to fit and then duct tape the seams. The smooth cardboard sweeps up easily. I leave it down until the painting is complete.
In the 60's, I worked for my dad, a GC who specialized in rehabbing some of the old homes in NW Portland. Back then it was fashionable to tear our plaster walls and put up nice flat drywall. Anyway, one of my several menial tasks was tearing off the plaster. Here's what I found that worked for me...keeping in mind I was a teenager with a strong back and weak mind (now my back is weak and my mind hasn't changed)....anyway......
Roughly mark the stud locations, take a #10 sledge, turn it sideways and go along and lightly smack the walls starting from top to bottom mideay between the wall studs. Old horsehair plaster will crack quite nicely, and if you can knock enough of the keys out of the back, it'll fall off in big chunks, which can be quite heavy. I agree with the 1/4 or even 1/2" plywood over the floor. And dust!! It'll be everywhere, so the box fans are a good idea....although I didn't have any back then...just a wet rag wrapped around my head...all that lead...probably explains why my mind is unchanged.
I would use a wheelbarrow and ramp up into my dad's big stake-bed trailer...but doors on those old houses were at least 40" wide...so this hauling method might not work for a narrower door...but if you can get a WB in there, its the easiest way to haul it out.
Lath came off with a crowbar or steel handle framing hammer...nails holding the lath on were small little things.
I see no value in backpriming. Those clabbord done shrunk a long time ago.
Another thing you might consider, depending on what climate you live in. If its cold, you might want to fir our the 2X studs with 2X2's and use R-21 or R-23 batts. And if it is balloon framed, after you run your new Romex, I'd try to scoot batts up as high as you can and then fireblock.
BruceM