Interesting situation developed involving the local city park and a friend of mine’s 8 year old daughter.
Daughter was playing on this gym set climber when she fell and broke her arm.
The gym set consists of PT 6×6’s imbedded vertical in ground something like a yard apart with horizontal metal bar rungs stretched between.
Then joining a same hand over hand horizontal ladder type deal going to another PT 6×6’s set on the other end, say 8ft away with similar various climbing things alongside.
The type of set seen similarly across many city parks here in the States.(writing this from memory after viewing it the other day)
Seeing that the little 8yearold girl is rather tough and athletically inclined, mom can’t see how the daughter could just fall off the bar rungs she’s climbing in order to get to the horizontal ladder.
So upon a closer investigation she discovers that the metal bar rungs that are placed between the 6x6s, though uniform in rung separation, vary in that some of the bar rungs are immovable meaning they cannot spin in their sockets ie: the inch diameter holes drilled thru the 6x6s with a hex head bolt seen on each side thru the holes,
and then some of the other bar rungs WILL spin which is the center of the controversy.
The bar rungs are held between the 6x6s with a collar w/setscrew on each end of the bar rung touching the inside face of the 6×6.
It would seem that the design of the bar rungs as being bolted thru the ends and the collars spinning also with the rung bars,
means that only tension on the bar rungs from tight contact with the wood in the drilled hole is what keeps the bars from spinning,
as opposed to securing the collars to the 6x6s.
So what happens is the kid is climbing on the bar rungs and when placing a foot on a loose rung it will spin as the child’s shoe has applied pressure to the bar rung and it spins.
It seems to me that the lack of continuity in that some bar rungs spin and some don’t creates a hazard for the child let alone the idea of the rungs being able to spin at all on the vertical climbing as being potentially dangerous.
After watching other children taking a spill the same way she contacted the park superintendent about the spinning rungs and he pretty much brushed her off saying nothing is wrong with the rungs.
Needless to say she is mad as hell as she just wants to make sure other kids don’t get hurt and wonders if the super is just a dumbazz or fears a lawsuit reprisal sort of thing thru admittance which is not in her interests but child safety is.
So now the whole thing has me wondering and personally I’d like to find the manufacturer of the gym set to inquire what exactly the planned specs for the rungs are so the super can correct the situation without letters to the editor and making a public media scene to get attention to the scenario.
It’s been a month such the episode and the gym set remains unchanged.
Am hoping for some import from the readers here regarding this whole thing.
Does it seem that to spin or not spin would be placed in the manufacture’s specs and be able to be found online somewhere?
Thanks all.
Replies
Regardless if they should spin or not, they should be consistent (just like the step height on a staircase).
IMO though, they shouldn't spin at all. That's a recipe for a fall - obviously. I would contact the manufacturer and see what they say.
Open the can of worms all the way before someone else gets hurt.
My thoughts exactly but how do you go about finding out the manufacturer of playground eqipment like that?
Makes me wonder if there might be a nameplate somewhere on the set.
I would first look for a plate somewhere. It seems like there's always something like that somewhere on the equipment.
If not, call the city and ask for the manufacturer. That should be public knowledge somewhere.
Had a client hire me to supervise some college kids installing a very elaborate play set, including something like your interest, for a battered women's shelter here. Came from his estate, kids outgrew it. Even had chipped tire ground cover.
Very expensive commercial unit, but no label. Fortunately I was around to dismantle so I knew how to reassemble. The rungs on that one spun, more or less. Dependent on wood wear, humidity, dirt, ... I'm unaware of anyone ever getting hurt, chipped tires probably helped. Having the rungs all rotate equally would be difficult.
Been years now, but you're right, stationary would be better. Your friend might do better with her elected representative.
Then you think about all the stuff we played on. Occasionally somebody got hurt, usually not seriously. Wasn't a big deal, wear a cast for awhile and get everybody to sign it. You ever squeeze inside a tire to be rolled down a steep hill? No hills where I grew up, but we had a large excavation left over from no telling what. Too many broken limbs got that stopped, hole filled in. Bikes needed fewer wheel replacements.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Just call the city. If they dont help, ask if they'd help you / your friends attorney?
I'd have to think if they didnt give up the manufactures name they would at least address the issue.
I'm not sure that a city can be sued for such things... but maybe they can. Assuming the former, I would say that the Superintendant is just being a jerk and not wanting to listen to some mommy cry about her little girl getting hurt.
Although, truth is that a kid gets hurt on a playground... big deal. things happen to kids. They break bones while having fun.... however, lawsuits about such things are what stiffles the fun for others. Cities quit erecting playgrounds to avoid lawsuits, etc.
BUT
You could spend WAY less time than you have already by making a quick trip to the park and tightening up the parts that are loose, if you feel like it truly is a hazard.... instead of trying to make a case out of it.
Unfortunately, your story honestly sounds like the beginnings of another lawsuit because mommy needs to blame someone else for their child's mishap.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
As being the mayor of a small municipality, pop. 6,000, in Michigan, yes a city can be sued. But it's a tough one going up against city attorney's. In a case like this you would look at the cities liability and also the manufacturer & installer. In Michigan a lot of these playscapes are installed by volunteers.
But the city's umbrella liability insurance should cover something of this nature.
This is why skateboard parks are not a favorite thing for the city or insurance companies.
This is something that I can see anyone getting rich on but often a municipality offers a token settlement to avoid court/atty cost.
I was always under the belief that a city can only be sued where there has been malfeasance.
Maybe malfeasance had occured in that the playgroud set was known to be defective and was refused to be fixed.... if that is the case.
BUT, you can't sue a city for tripping over a sidewalk and injuring yourself and I assume you can't sue for falling off of a set of monkey bars.
BTW, how do you like being Mayor? I am currently running for council here in my hometown. We are a population of a little more than 12,000 people.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
I dunno Pete, a while back a lady sued the city and won monies after her car hit a deep chuckhole in a roadway which messed up her undercarriage. Courts are a strange thing.
Not intending this thread to be a legal liability issue as much as seeking various ways to remedy to the desired end.
Edited 8/21/2007 2:45 pm ET by rez
We have people atempt to sue the city often, but generally not to sucessful. A number of time the insurance company would pay off to avoid court of our atty advised to do the same to save cost. Even tho we would have won in court, it would cost us to win.
Sewer back-ups in the basement were considered an act of god, but now if the muncisipality is not compling with state/federal mandates to seperate storm water from sanitary the munsipality is libial. No suit needed just turn in the bill, it's the law.
Tripping on sidewalks a biggie, we have a agressive replacement and repair program and this really cuts down on the nusance claims.
I have been on our city council over 25 years and the last 4 as mayor, love it. My business is in my home right across the street from city hall. Takes alot of time and the pay stinks, under $2,500. You have to have a very understanding family to put up with it.
In the case of the defected playground equip. a friendly visit to the city/village meeting. Just to make them aware of future potental problems. That DPW super. answers to the city manager, which answers to the council.
Sometimes friendlyness or kindness goes alot farther in get something corrected that harsh words or a threat of a suit.
I was always under the belief that a city can only be sued where there has been malfeasance.
And, in a reasonable world, you'd likely be correct.
Sadly, near as I can tell you can sue a city for not being a ham sammitch--probably would not be successful in that endeavor, but a lack of success is not a bar to the action sad to say. Might even be some, ah, less-whelming practitioners be fore the bar would "like" the publicity. Might be too many people are just plain nuts, too. With apologies for the unavoidable pun, the jury remains out on the issue.
Back to OP, it may behoove to converse with one's school board member, if one lives in a school district with geographical representation--individual board memebers are often more "approachable" than senior administrators. Sometimes. It's hugely helpful to come to all such meetings with "I have this idea" rather than "it's broke"--again, sometimes being the crucial bit. The administrators say that most all that they hear is "It's broke, why haven't you fixed it yet?" questions. Just posing them the other way round can get better attention. Sometimes.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was always under the belief that a city can only be sued where there has been malfeasance.
I dont know if this falls under the "malfeasance" rule or not but in a city where I lived back in the early 90's the building department head got on TV(local news) and made some pretty disparaging remarks about a company that does fondation repair/dry coating. The company sued the city and won a $1.5 million suit because this duffus ran his mouth about something he knew nothing about. Pizzed me off cause the city was self insures so that meant I had to help pay for this stupidity!
Probably doesnt apply to this situation but I know that one can sue a city and win.
Doug
That would very likely be malfeasance.
Malfeasance is defined as wrongdoing by a public official... or words to that effect.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
Pete -
No offense intended, but don't try to be a lawyer. Many (not all) municipatilies around the country can be sued. Even the federal government allowed itself to be sued under the Federal Tort Claims Act (or some such) decades ago. Suits can be prosecuted for a variety of reasons including slander, failure to repair city structures like buildings and roads, negligent supervision of employees and lots more. When I used to practice in New York City, I got money out of their attorneys regularly.
There are often notice requirements, which require that the gov't have notice of a defective condition before they can be held liable. There are also often special requirements for bringing the suit, shortened time limits and special people that need to be served, but to someone that works in the particular jurisdiction, that shouldn't be a big deal.
As far as whether the suits are justified or morally correct, I'll leave that discussion to be taken up in the Tavern.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Sue the city? and Win!!! Ok Have fun!!!
?
I can see where someone could say something along the lines of what you replied but she has no interest in a court procedure as I stated in the first post with her concern being other children hurt from what she considers something wrong on the equipment.
Truth of the matter is I went to look at it and got to talking it over with my brother and we both walked away scratching our heads saying 'ya know, something isn't right here.
True, a monkey bars has nicked many a kids chin with and uppercut or a merry-go-round scraped many a knee but those are given normal designed tools of play and when functioning as expected there is no problem.
But this rates a closer look as possibly a hidden danger.
Man, to say I should just go to a city park and tighten up the equipment kids play on?
sheesh Pete, you having a rough day today or what? That is not a sage bit of advice to offer someone. :o0 I go fixing a piece of public playground equipment that the super has said has nothing wrong with it?
I'm wondering if tightening the rungs would accomplish the desired end with just a tension fit as opposed to affixing the collars to the 6x6s mechanically.
Edited 8/21/2007 2:07 pm ET by rez
Didn't mean to come off harshly but if I had a problem with a piece of playground equipment that my city would not fix... I'd be much inclined to take care of it myself assuming that a reasonable fix was possible. If it involved some advanced amount of work then I would simply work my way up the chain of command at city hall until it was rectified.
Councilman's or Mayor's office is a good place to call.
http://www.petedraganic.com/
It looks as if it would take altering the original design like screwing the collars to the 6x6 which would take administrative procedure seeing it's public equipment.
Thanks.
Your friend may need to escalate her phone calls. The sup has a boss, and he has a boss. All the way up to the Village Manager if needed.
Or,
You can call the sup. Talk guy to guy. Ask him to meet you at the playground and show him your concerns. And the simple fix.
Somebody snap a neck instead of an arm and, well, you know.
Considered talking to the sup but would want something to show him as a manu spec seeing he already voiced his opinion to the mother.
Figuring if someone can't view the possibility of a child's dry tennis shoe or sandle after contacting the spin of a bar rung to slip from an akward downward application of pressure I'd be limited.
Watch a kid on something like this and there arms might be extended out straight with their weight pushing back while climbing.
I'll go look for a nameplate if nothing but to just see if there might be a data sheet somewhere.
I'm far from an expert on any of this, but can add a little from personnel experience.
Five years ago I led a volunteer group that erected a $20K play ground set at the local elementary school. (That translates to one day of 6 to 8 helpers and six days of me and DW finishing the job.) After the set was completed, the manufacturer sent a rep to inspect it. The school was also given a yearly maintenance/safety check off list. The finial inspection gave me a list of correctives that I needed to address before the kids could use the equipment. The yearly check list has been followed and submitted to the manufacturer every year since then to maintain the equipment warranty and insure the kids are not injured from something prematurely failing.
Simply put, there is no profit in designing, manufacturing, and installing something that will possibly get children hurt. Knowone on the liability list wants a law suite.
Sounds like the superintendent is playing CYA.
Your friend is rightfully concerned about other children possibly getting hurt.
Push it further up the food chain
Good luck.
Dave
I was a certified playground inspector and worked for a school system in a previous life purchasing and overseeing playground equipment. There are two sets of safety standards that cover playground equipment, a set of ASTM standards, and the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) the CPSC has an easily understood handbook that you could purchase inexpensively if not free. The ASTM is not as clear, and deals more with manufacturing items, but this may be covered in there also?I cannot remember off of the top of my head if this situation is addressed in either, but if it were, there would be your leverage however you choose to pursue getting it corrected?
Play equipment near my old house had a slide right next to a two step down to a pole... except the steps started just next to the slide, so if you weren't careful you could have a spectacular cartwheeling fall from 8' while you were setting up for the slide. Which my 2y.o. nearly did... twice. City was also uninterested in fixing.
I say, go to the park with a handfull of that clay like epoxy putty, and jam it in the gaps around the poles.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Oh, good Lord, no. But I can give him two dollars and an assault rifle.
I had a similar situation at a private school playground. They had a vertical pole that kids were supposed to slide down that was about 12 feet high. At the bottom they had a piece of pt wood that came out from the structure in the landing area. The ground had worn away around the piece of pt and the height difference was about 2".
My daughter landed with one of her feet partially on the board. The front part. So her ankle has over bent. She was on crutches for a few weeks.
I showed the person in charge and they did nothing. He was a jerk. Everyone knew he was but did nothing. He's still there. Were gone. What a terrible school.
If the city is on notice of a dangerous condition (and now that you have told them about the problem), they fail to correct it and someone is injured, they can be sued. In your case, your daughter's injury likely occured before the city was on notice, so your chances to win a case against the city for her injuries would be low -- a suit against the manufacturer (assuming the equipment design is defective) or the installer (assuming the design was fine, but the parts were installed improperly, or the wrong parts were installed) would likely be a different matter. That one would be a, er, walk in the park. (Groan.)
However, if you just want to see the problem corrected, as others have said, escalate the problem up the chain of command. A letter to your local paper warning parents about the problem and the city's refusal to take it seriously (with copies to the afforesaid chain of command and to the community's insurance carrier, if they have one), if published, will have the problem fixed in about an hour. Sounds like all it would take is to drill some holes in the collars, with screws into the 6X6 to keep it from rotating.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Rez:
Unfortunately, folks in the best position to fix this sort of thing often lack the background to easily understand the problem. That's where you come in! A face-to-face meeing with the appropriate person would be ideal, if you can figure out who that is and they happpen not to be a beaurecratic arsehole. But look for whatever venu might work, whether it be a city council meeting or a letter to the editor.
Point out how you see the issue -- the analogy of an irregular staircase is perfect, but might be lost on those who've never built nor thought much about staircases. Most reasonable folk expect playgrounds to be somewhat dangerous, so you'll have to convince them that it would be cheap & easy to make this particular one a little bit less so.
Don't lead with your Daughter's broken arm -- that'll just put everyone potentially responsible into defensive ear-plugging mode from the get-go. Use it if you have to, or close with it as an anecdote, but mainly present your thoughts as those of a building professional who has noticed a problem and has ideas about how to fix it. Be ready to talk with anyone flushed-out, and keep the language technical instead of emotional.
Best of luck, and let us know how it goes. Hopefully nobody sues you for little Brittany's palm blisters caused by monkey bars that didn't turn. When I was kid, my "playground" comprised big o'l trees, dangerous critters, and high rock outcroppings, none of which were very predictable. My folks did what they could to keep me alive by shooting rattlesnakes and telling cautionary tales of gore. Both ends of that spectrum made an impression on me, and I'm glad that I wasn't so overprotected as to never be able to see the real world in all its frightening splendor.
A broken arm may be a blessing in the education of a child, and preventing one may help or stifle another child; but as a parent, sometimes you just have to shoot the rattlesnakes.
}}}}
heh heh Speaking of rattlesnakes. If you could see the local city council meetings which are broadcast on the tube you'd say no way should I enter that viper den. snorK*
Almost like those news reports of foreign parliament proceedings when they end up punching each other. This community has been called JerrySpringerville by more that one person.
Ya know, I miss those days of climbing to the tree tops.
Thanks for the words View Image
*edited for all to add the injuried little girl is not my daughter or there'd have been three 4inch 1/2dia lags thru each collar within an hour of her return from the hospital. roar!
Edited 8/22/2007 11:52 am ET by rez
Well, I guess when you live in Jerry Springerville you're starting out with the assumption that only the outrageous is effective. In that case, nothing short of a midnight flashlight & screwgun intervention might be effective. Be sure to wear a bandana mask and take plenty of pictures for the tabloids! Jeez, what a pathetic little revolution, but oddly fun nonetheless!
There's no good reason to miss the days of free-climbing tall trees and rocks -- those things are still there -- just getting harder to find. What's different today from when we were kids is our cultural learned assesment of risk. Among my ancestors, both red and white, a typical set of offspring might number four to twelve, depending on determination and cmpatibility of the parents. It was never exected that every single one would survive to beget more -- heck, there wasn't enough good land for that.
In my generation in my particular family, half of us survived to bear offspring -- not particularly out of line historically. Of course, our expectation is that 100% of our kids will survive and carry forward the family jizm. That's an unrealistic expectation, but is as it should be for a culture looking always forward.
The problem with always looking forward and seldom back is that we tend to temporally localize and sacredize minor personal events like a broken arm out of context with.....
}}}}
93821.1
didja call the local TV station? I bet they'd do a spot on something like this."I wanna be a race car passenger. You know, the guy that bugs the driver. Say, man, can I stick my feet out the window? Do we have to keep going in circles? Mind if I turn on the radio? Boy, you really like Tide."
Heavens no, I don't want to put that thought into her head!
Found out there had been a police report made as the accident resulted in paramedics being there and the equipment was said to not have been found faulty.
But I saw it and the fact the several of the rungs in the most inappropiate spots will move in their sockets when the others won't is the root of the whole thing.
I know several of the cops on force and next time I see them I'm going to mention the whole deal with a recommendation that the park super be advised to just take ten minutes and go tightened the freakin' nuts so it can be all be done with before a freakin' episode comes out of it.
But you know smalltown politics.
be Well, I was born in a small townAnd I live in a small townProb'ly die in a small townOh, those small communities
Edited 8/28/2007 11:42 am ET by rez
Heh...I never knew the fourth line of that verse. Thanky.
Be like I'd be caught dead singin it...
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Edited 8/28/2007 4:49 pm ET by Sphere
How about just going out there in the evening and tightening them.
I should have offered to fix the equipment at the school. They would have let me I think.
Official report said nothing was wrong with the equipment and it's hard to fight cityhall.
Things are weird in this town. I'd tighten the rungs and someone would say something then who knows where it would end up.
be shocked into sobriety and head for a rock
I've thought about this before in other circustances. We are so used to getting permision to do something. If we are law abiding, and do something without permision that is the right thing to do, is that wrong?
I think we've been conditioned more than we know. Do it when no one is around and don't tell anyone. Is that wrong? It feels wrong, but is it?
Not unless you get caught.
be some things never change.
so don't get caught! snorK*
Rez -
There are many playground "experts" out there that can talk about whether the situation is safe and proper. Some are licensed design professionals - including engineers. Some are just hacks that will say whatever you want for a fee.
If you don't have any luck with the laws that you were already given and if you really want to pursue this, let me know and I'll try to find somebody in your jurisdiction that might be able to help you. (I understand that this isn't about a lawsuit.)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Thanks, I'll see what she says.
Approach it with a positive tone. Figure out a solution (such as threaded flanges and pipes) and estimate the cost of the parts to fix each one. Maybe even offer to help. Most folks appreciate being approached with solutions instead of being approached with problems (and I can tell that you want a solution). But I realize the city still may not want to listen. Just my two cents.
Billy
Ya, went back to take a second look at the set when trying to find a manu nameplate and it looks as if just a tightening of the revealed boltheads on the ends of each rung would tighten the collars together enough to secure the rungs from slipping.
She mentioned she wants to pursue the matter thru an appearence at a local city meeting. I'm trying to get her to just find some specs for other similar eqipment and reapproach the park head instead.
She got blown off by the guy once and now doesn't think much of him. Goes into a speil of 'what if a kid falls and gets paralyzed. I'd known about it and done nothing yadayada' so here we go.
I've tried to help but if she won't listen to reason and goes full blown into a frontal attack she's on her own.
If it makes you feel any better, here's some more potentially defective playground equipment:
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
Good for a Roar!
and a snorK*
that like the time Bo Jackson almost got strampled by a herd of horses. If the manager of wally world have not unplugged the machine he would of died..Haga su trabajo de fricken