PLS2E Broken, No Parts Available?
I love my PLS2, it’s been an invaluable part of by business for several years, and it has never been abused.
Recently I took it out of its case to use it, and it wouldn’t turn on (indicator lights on, but no laser.)
I contacted PLS, and they steered me to an authorized repair facility. I sent it to them a few weeks ago. I called yesterday to find out what’s the verdict, and was told that repair parts will no longer be available from PLS as they are discontinuing the model (PLS180 is its replacement.) (I’m assuming all this is true, relayed to me by the service tech at the repair facility.)
I always thought most reputable companies would maintain repair parts for some determined amount of time after discontinuing a model, but I guess not.
Don’t get me wrong, I still believe PLS makes excellent lasers. But if they are not going to provide service for a just-discontinued model, I might have to look elsewhere. It sure seems like a ploy to get the customer to buy the 180 when the 2 goes toes-up, but that’s just my perception.
Anyone have a spare optical kit for a PLS2e sitting around?
“I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.” Invictus, by Henley.
Replies
Sometimes it just might not be cost effective for them to keep making and stocking spare parts. I have the PLS2 and the rep at the JLC show last year said that if there is ever a problem that they cannot fix, they will knock off money from the replacement. I would call up your local PLS area rep and explain the situation to him. If he cannot get yours fixed, see how much he'll give you off for a 180. I don't know if the 180 works with the sensor if you use it outside, thats an issue.
Ironically, I just got a call from the service center. No parts available, but they will take off (or charge? I can't remember which) $130 toward a new 180. And I think the 2e detector works with the 180. Now, whether or not they send the detectable 180 laser is a wait-and-see thing, I guess.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
That sux! I recently had my PLS2 optics replaced for $140 so they aren't offering you too bad of a deal. Hopefully mine won't break again anytime soon. Hopefully your shop will offer you the PLS180 at a reasonable price.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
I remember when I talked to the rep and talked a bit about repairs. I only paid $150 for my PLS2 and he was talking about repair costs that were a minimum of $100. I would rather upgrade than repair older technology at that kind of price.Good luck.
Edited 12/29/2007 7:04 pm ET by DDay
Guys:
The PLS 2 has indeed been discontinued and we alerted the market back in April this year. Up until last month PLS was able to repair PLS 2 units with our stock of PLS 2 optic kits we had available. PLS has now exhausted those PLS 2 optic kits. Therefore PLS as well as our service centers around the world will not likely be able to repair the PLS2. This of course depends on the defect of the tool.
For our customers that own a PLS 2 we will replace a defective tool under the one year warranty with a PLS 180. The one year warranty starts from the purchase date of the tool. If the PLS 2 cannot be serviced under warranty then a charge of $130.00 will apply to have the PLS 2 replaced with a PLS 180. This charge applies only to those tools sent direct to PLS in California. It may not be available at service senters around the world. All PLS 180 tools are pulsed and can be used with the PLS LD or PLS SLD detectors.
All PLS customers are welcome to contact PLS direct to answer any concerns regarding the PLS 2 or other PLS products. 800 601 4500
Thanks and best wishes for a Happy New Year.
Regards,
Mike Tramontin
PLS Pacific Laser Systems
Just to be clear, the $130. Is that what someone with a non functioning PLS2 E will need to pay for the 180 or what they will get from PLS towards the purchase of a 180?Also, since the PLS2 and PLS2E's are very similar, with the offer be for those of us with the PLS2 also? Thanks for the update.
The $130.00 covers the cost of a replacement PLS 180.
It applies equally to the PLS 2 and 2E.
regards,
Mike PLS
Wow, I am very impressed to see a representative from a tool company actually reading and responding to customer concerns on this web board! If only the other tool manufacturers did this, they might actually gain some customer trust. My hat is of to PLS!
!
That's a good reason to spend a little more and get the PLS rather than the Stanley. Service is worth extra money any day.
"Wow, I am very impressed to see a representative from a tool company actually reading and responding to customer concerns on this web board"Yeah. It's called good business.
You realize what the potential # of readers there are here and it would be stupid to do otherwise.
Yeah. It's called good business.You realize what the potential # of readers there are here and it would be stupid to do otherwise.
I agree, but look at how few reps we hear back from here. I can remember Douglas and now PLS... maybe 1 or 2 others?jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
I'd also like thank you for not only reading comments about your products, but also responding to the poster. There are a lot of manufacturers that should be more responsive, as it represents both the purchaser and the sellers best interests. Cost is not the only concern in a tool (or most any thing) purchase.
Maybe you read my posts about my PLS 180 or not. But Mike at PLS emailed me after reading my post and set me straight on a detector issue. He then answered a handful of questions of mine.
A tool rep sold me my 180 and said I wouldn't need another detector, the one for my 5x would work for both lasers. Mike cleared it up that I needed another detector and sent me one free.
I love their tools, with him taking the time to email me and answer questions he earned a customer for life. Then he throws in a little something extra.
Service means much more than price to me on tools. I'll pay extra for a quality tool that the company stands behind.
From what I have read this offer for PLS to give over 50% off a new laser because they don't have any parts left is yet another classy move by them that just makes my choice in who I want to buy a certain tool from even easier.
Woods favorite carpenter
"A tool rep sold me my 180 and said I wouldn't need another detector, the one for my 5x would work for both lasers. Mike cleared it up that I needed another detector and sent me one free"
Did you have a detector for the PLS 2E or just the 5x.?
I have both, I wonder if the 2e is replacible if it is not defective yet and if the 2e detector works on the 180 also?
What's in the future for the 5x?
Sorry I didn't need any tools you had to offer (G):
al
I don't own a 2E, I bought the 180.
I was just giving a report on customer service. Hard enough to talk with a human in these companies much less get any answers.
Service means alot to me, I'll pay the little extra for a company that is willing to talk to me about their products and any issues I am having with them.
I had the 5x first with the detector, then I needed the 180 and was told that I wouldn't need another detector. I was misinformed. Mike from PLS sent me a demo that looked untouched free of charge.
From what I understand the detector will work for the 2E and the 180, and I hope Mike will correct me if I am wrong. My problem was the 5x and the 180 weren't compatable due to the different types of beams used in the tool. The 5x shoots points and the 180 shoots lines. Frequencies were different.
If the 5x goes the way of the 2E I can only hope that I am given the same option you guys are getting. $130 for a new tool? When the parts were running the same price, not a hard choice for me.
I am very happy with the performance and accuracy of my PLS tools.
>>Sorry I didn't need any tools you had to offer (G):<<
Not a big deal, I am actually suprised how well people responded. It worked out for a few of us. I wished others would have posted lists.
Woods favorite carpenter
If you are referring to the tool trade thread - Honestly, by the time I had a chance to check it out - there were over a 100 posts, so I never bothered.Still think it's too bad we have such an under-used member classified section.Other forums I frequent have a much more frequented user sell/buy listings.I end up selling all my extra stuff through Craigslist.JT
Edited 12/30/2007 11:49 am ET by JulianTracy
Don't bother reading all the posts, if you have any tools post a list.
I unloaded a bunch of tools that I wasn't using anymore for tools that I wanted or needed.
I've seen you post a few items in the classifieds and thought the thread might interest you a little.
And I agree the classifieds here are a ghost town. Not sure why that is. Woods favorite carpenter
If anyone tries to make a buck on the forum, therre are those who will attack. I think it is a reaction to spammers which appear from time to time. Also, a lot of people seem to think used tools should be sold very cheap, and no one wants to give the appearance of taking advantage of others here. So, its kind of an unattractive way to sell stuff. This is a tight knit bunch of people, unlike any other forum I have seen on any subject. Almost family like, complete with squabbles and egos.
Sounds about right to me. Makes sense.
I took care of the tools I traded and hope that those who received them feel that they got a good deal. Or at least fair. Woods favorite carpenter
Every company has some tools that break at some point, but my experience with PLS has been nothing but positive. My PLS2 is alway dead on and I've never had a problem with it From what I've seen on this and other boards, I think PLS has one of the best reputations for their tools, they are very good.
I will ditto Mr. DDay's post. I just looked at the date on my PLS2, and after being in service since '03 it is still dead on. Reading this thread just sealed the deal on a PLS180........
The 2E detector works with the 180.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I'd like to trade up, how does one go about it?
al
PS Thanks
Edited 12/30/2007 2:36 pm ET by eleft
You mean trade in your 2E for a 180?
Contact PLS and ask. They're offering the 180 at $130 if the 2E is broken; I'm not sure they would make the same offer if the 2E is still working.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
From what I have read this offer for PLS to give over 50% off a new laser because they don't have any parts left is yet another classy move by them that just makes my choice in who I want to buy a certain tool from even easier.
Not a bad solution by any means, but they aren't necessarily doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
There are federal laws requiring a manufacturer to support and repair their products for a period of time, generally 5 to 7 years after the date of last sale, depending on the product. By offering a credit toward a new unit, they are complying with that law without having to maintain the repair parts inventory to repair the units.
>>but they aren't necessarily doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.<<
Sending me a free detector was more than generous in my book. No laws for that.
Woods favorite carpenter
Sending me a free detector was more than generous in my book.
No disagreement there. Some companies "get" good customer service and some don't.
I didn't intend to suggest that their customer service was not good - just pointing out that there are other factors that had to be considered in deciding how to resolve that situation.
I hear you loud and clear. I'm sure there are other reasons they are offering the deal.
My experience was more than positive with them, thats why I push their name when I can.
Happy New Year Woodturner.
Woods favorite carpenter
I will agree, very nice to see a manufacturer speak up in here. And I own Topcon !
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I've had my PLS2 for over three years. Initially, I carried it on my belt. Now I keep it in my shop. I treat it with lots of TLC. I love it when I get a chance to use it now. I'm hoping it will last many more years. I even take the batteries out after each job. Years ago, I lost my treasured HP41CX due to battery leakage. That was discontinued too, so I was out of luck. I have a Stabila LE100 measuring device that gets the same treatment as the PLS2. I don't work for others anymore, so I doubt I would ever buy a replacement, but who knows what a guy will do with a pocket full of mad money!
<Years ago, I lost my treasured HP41CX>Same with me!Boy, wasn't that a babe? Got mine in 1981; couldn'a done Ga Tech without it.Forrest - still miss RPN
This is probably better-suited for a different forum, but I will post anyway.
I had the math module on my HP41CX - really miss that! Prior to that, I had invested in a TI99 with card reader and printer. I thought it was the greatest invention an engineering student could ever have. There were a few problems. During tests (I remember one test in dynamics), the keyboard could be undependable (false hits). Also, I once had to stop in the middle of a test to change batteries even though I had installed new batteries just before the test.
The TI99 was definitely not cheap in those days. The HP was the cadillac.
I finally bought it, gave my TI99 to my son, and never regretted the change. I distinctly remember that in the first test I took with the HP, I did all calculations twice and still finished ten minutes early.
Concerning your RPN deficiency: Last year, I bought the new HP33s. It's no 41, but it is as close as you will get for now. It's a little too stylish, yet the basic strengths of the 41 are there. I haven't had too much time to spend on it since I am no longer a student. If I ever go back to school, it will be my constant companion.
My apologies to anyone who doesn't have the HP 41 experience.
my favorite was the HP 11 c
While I agree that there seems to be much to praise in terms of PLS standing behind their customers - why isn't anyone asking why there's so many bad PLS2 laser out there?Seems like it was a common problem - is it that they have a built-in lifespan?Also - I thought there was some law that required companies to carry parts on products for 7 years after they were available for purchase - is that not the case?The PLS2E was only introduced in the last year or so, right?Don't have one, so I've got no horse in this race - just thinking aloud.JT
I bought my 2E almost three years ago at the JLCLive show. The 2E had just been introduced within the previous year, with the 2 out before it. So it has been around awhile.
To be honest, the 180 looks to be a PLS2 on performance-enhancing drugs. The PLS2 would throw the lines in about a 90 degree spread (I'm not sure of the exact number) whereas the 180 throws the lines 180 degrees, a significant improvement, IMO.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
While I agree that there seems to be much to praise in terms of PLS standing behind their customers - why isn't anyone asking why there's so many bad PLS2 laser out there?
A delicate instrument on a construction site. I think that explains it. You can't expect something like that to be as durable as a hammer or prybar.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
I would have to say that, after forking over hundreds for the laser, most would be quite careful with it. I can only speak for myself, but I babied it, only bringing it out of its case when needed, and returning it to case and dedicated storage in the van when done. One day I brought it out, it didn't work.
I took - take - good care of my tools, but don't expect them to last forever. While I am grateful that PLS has offered the 180 at a much reduced rate, I work alone and hadn't anticipated the expense of replacement.
The good news is that although the 2E was invaluable, it had its limitations, and thus the replacement by the 180, which I'm looking forward to using.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
That was a great little calculator. Although I never owned one, I did get to use one a few times. Nobody makes a keyboard that feels better, IMO.
i had the ti99 with the card reader..
even took a two-day course at U of Bridgeport for special apps
i think we were doing heat loss & solar gain calcs with it
imagine ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I forgot about the card reader. I thought it was really slick. I really would not have bought the HP41CX except for the fact that it could do the same thing better and faster without the cards.
i could never figger out how they arrived at a name like Reverse Polish Notation
was it someone with a sensahumor ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation
Here it is.
The service center I sent the laser to called you guys and they are offering the $130 off. They are ordering the laser and shipping it to me. I hope. If it doesn't work out, then I will have them return the PLS2 to me, and I will then remail it to you.
Thanks.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
what does pls stand for?
Pacific laser systemshttp://www.plslaser.com/
It's not $130 off but $130 you pay to get the new one, at least that is how I take his explanation in post #9. That is a much better deal than $130 off.
You are correct, I got it turned around.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
After reading your post, the PL any# would be off my Christmas list. Your telling us that some folks still are under warranty with equipment that cannot be repaired. That makes no sense to me at all. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 12/30/2007 7:11 pm by Jim_Allen
fine buy the stanley or some other brand and have a paper weight. The company is willing to do far more than any other company would. Notice how many people like that company and see what he's done for the posters in this thread. One poster was incorrectly told buy some retailer the sensor he had would work with the 180 and PLS sent him the sensor for the 180 free of charge. I believe the sensor's sell for about $200. That's good service and something to believe in. Sorry for you that you cannot see it.
I think that you're being hard on them.
Electronics is a volume manufacturing business. Most likely PLS uses a laser line module produced by a third party. The third party may have EOL'd the line module that PLS designed into the 2/2E making it impossible to buy more. Or it may be that other consumers of that module have gone away and the minimum order quantity is unattractive to PLS. If there are a lot of users the manufacturer will let you buy a 10 pieces (or whatever small[er] quantity that you need) and can ship them to you immediately out of inventory. OTOH, if nobody else is buying them then there may be no inventory and you have to pay for a whole manufacturing run, whether you need 1 or 10000 pieces. What's more the supply chain in semiconductors can be really long -- like lead times of 120-180 days (if you're lucky). So, needs have to forecast a couple of quarters ahead. This can make your life complicated... If you want to guarantee a supply of spares into the future that can be really expensive.
Long story short, PLS made a decision that made economic sense, and they're not screwing their customers either. Out of warrantee and we don't make it anymore? Most manufacturers would leave you flapping in the breeze. Sounds like stand-up behavior to me.
FWIW, a few months ago PLS comped the repair my slightly out of warrantee 2E after the horizontal laser died. They didn't have to do anything. They'll have my business in the future.
Doc, it's possible that I didn't understand the situation.My understanding is that they are selling products that they know will be obsolete before the one year warranty ends and they don't have replacement parts available before the one year warranty ends. Their "solution" is to extort an additional $100 out of the new customer. I question why they couldn't purchase a supply of parts before they decide to shut down the model so their old happy clients can still use the tool that they have been relying on for five or ten more years. To me, this is just another example of planned obsolescence but this seems to be a bit more blatant. You seem to be saying that I should buy ten units but they didn't? Aren't they the ones that have profited off all these obsolete units? I'm okay that they have a new generation of units but I believe that they have a responibility to stock parts for their old units for some amount of time...five years minimum. Yes, there are carrying costs involved in that decision but that should have been factored into their basic business plan when they launched their product or launched the new product. How long before this next generation of units is obsolete? Six months? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, the feeling I got was that PLS knows what customer service is. I'd be willing to bet that someone who was still under warrenty would be made happy.
In the case mentioned in this thread, they are taking PLS2's not under warrenty and offering the 180 for $130. That's a pretty good deal. I wouldn't be surprised if getting the pls2 fixed would have cost $100+. Would you rather spend $100 to fix your 5 year old laser or $130 for a newer one with more abilities?
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Edited 12/31/2007 12:33 pm by JohnT8
A couple things Jim-First I understand PLS is a fairly small company. From all that I have heard about them ( a good friend is a rep for them and Trimble) they are very easy to work with.Second. It seems you have never had a laser serviced. It is common for problems with the optics to cost nearly as much to fix as to replace the entire unit.So, if you're going in to have the unit fixed clearly it is broken and requires at a minimum over $100 and they're offering a new unit for $130.I honestly can't see how you would have a problem bringing in an older model of anything and having the company tell you that they will give you a brand new upgraded model for the same cost as the repair would have been.
Where's the problem?
"Where's the problem?"The problem is that there aren't part available for new models that they are still selling. It just seems dishonest to me. Would you buy a new car, knowing that it had only a one year warranty and there weren't parts available to fix it if it didn't get through the warranty period? How about a Fridge? A TV? I wouldn't. I don't care how good the replacement deal is. I'm not saying that they haven't been a great service company on their products but it just looks like they are making a very bad PR decision on this one, or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the entire post. After buying one of these outdated dogs, I'd be very wary about their next line of products. Or, maybe I should be thinking about these things as throwaway tools because thats what I think I'm hearing.How much are these throwaway tools nowadays? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I guess you can't make every customer happy in any business.Still have an original PLS 5. Love it. When I bought it they told me what it could do, what it couldn't do and how expensive the delicate instrument I was buying would be to fix. They were 100% correct in all respects. I can't ask much more out a company than being honest, innovative, and listening to their customers. I guess you can. whatever.
I'm not that hard of a customer, believe me. How would you feel about your PL5 if you bought it and it was a month old and it needed fixing under warranty and they told you that there weren't any parts?!!!!Remember....you wouldn't have your history of years of pleasant happy use...you'd have an obsolete expensive anchor and a company graciously telling you to buy a better updated version....Put yourself in the shoes of a new user....not a five year user. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Is that the case? I didn't read that anywhere.
You have to pay the $130 for an out of warranty repair. I assume that if it is covered under warranty they are required to upgrade you to the replacement unit. Why would you assume otherwise? A warranty is a warranty They agreed that your unit would work or they will replace it. I guarantee that their warranty allows them to replace it with an equal or better unit.
Well, if nothing else - this thread has got to be a great opportunity for PLS to see inside of the minds of their target audience. Priceless for them, I'd think.Julian
"to see inside of the minds of their target audience"
there are some places you just don't want to go ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yea, well - I wasn't talking about you Jeff ;)JT
no doubt.
If that's not the case, I admit that I'm 100% wrong. I have mentioned several times that I might not be understanding the policy correctly. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Actually, if my month-old unit would cost $100 to fix, I would gladly pay an extra $30 to get a new unit with greater capabilities. This is entirely reasonable.
I don't think that the majority of goods that you purchase have parts available for seven or even five years after discontinuation.
>>How would you feel about your PL5 if you bought it and it was a month old and it needed fixing under warranty and they told you that there weren't any parts?!!!!<<
Happens all the time to me Jim, my old ladys car was too new to get parts for a recall. Bad ball joints are dangerous and they notified us of a recall but parts weren't available for another year.
#2- My Honda generator burns the brushes out of it after 6 months, take it to a service center and they tell me "it's too new we can't get parts for it." 3 months later after I got a lawyer involved they fixed it, they ordered a whole new generator and took the parts off it that I needed.
PLS offering this is a good gesture. I just paid $306 for a 180. At $130 and a trade for a broken one I'd jump on it. Woods favorite carpenter
Would you buy a new car, knowing that it had only a one year warranty and there weren't parts available to fix it if it didn't get through the warranty period?
You aren't seriously using a new car as an analogy for a $200 level?
How about a Fridge? A TV? I wouldn't. I don't care how good the replacement deal is.
So you'd rather pay $150 to repair an item than $150 to replace it with a newer, more capable item?
After buying one of these outdated dogs, I'd be very wary about their next line of products. Or, maybe I should be thinking about these things as throwaway tools because thats what I think I'm hearing.
Throw away society didn't start with lasers. Washing machines, dryers, tv, vcr/dvd players, in many cases fridges, etc, etc, etc. Most consumer goods are throwaway. But as long as there is a good customer support behind the product, I feel a whole lot better about the product.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Jim, I think that you misread Mike's post. Mike says that if your under warrantee 2E dies they'll just replace it with a 180. No extortion. If your 2E is out of warrantee they'll 'fix' it by giving you a new 180 for $130. From what I've heard about the cost to service these things, $130 to fix is a good deal, and $130 to upgrade is a steal.
When product lifecycles are short because technology is advancing quickly there's nothing that you can do but plan for obsolecense. What if PLS said that they could fix the 2E but because it is obsolete and the cost of obtaining obsolete parts and/or carrying the inventory the repair was going to be $350? At that point most would go for the new one. For other products the equation is different; for instance, a couple of years back I had to put a new part in an obsolete server that cost far more than the computer was worth. In fact, the part was way more than not only the original cost of the part, and even an equivalently capable new computer. Because we weren't ready to migrate the application over to new hardware and requalify the whole thing this made $ense at the time.
I don't think that they're profiting on this deal. I have a 2E, but I can see that a 180 would be really useful for me. At some point I might decide to get a 180 (for >$300) and have both the 2E and the 180 even though I probably don't have any legit need for two at the same time. OTOH if my 2E dies I can get a 180 for $130. Sounds like a loss to me.
It wouldn't surprise me to find out that I've misread or misunderstood the original post. Sometimes, I go back and re read, then re read again, then re read again before I get it.I've always had a hard time taking tests because of how I interpret syntax. I thought they were selling new products that couldn't be serviced under there promised one year warranty. I stand corrected. Thank you for being civil and taking the time to explain it to me. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thank you for being civil and taking the time to explain it to me.
now ... on to this whole "speed square" matter ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I've always joked about speed squares even if you've never understood that.I don't joke about not allowing young framers to use them though. I never allowed them to be carried by the rookies. If a journeyman hired on and carried one, I never said anything but it always saddened me to see him squaring things that didn't need to be squared. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm guessing you had quite a turnover.
Yes, I had a very high turnover but not because of the speedsquare issue. Most of the guys turned over because I expected them to be interested in their trade, prepared for their trade and act like grown men while working as a team to produce enough high quality frames to feed all the families involved in the deal (theirs and mine). There's not a lot of people out there in the rough frame field that fit that bill. I learned back in the 80's that I couldn't teach kids how to be good workers but I could teach good workers how to be good carpenters. All that hung with me for any amount of time were good workers and all learned a great deal while they stayed with me. Most of the prospects didn't hang too long with me because I also learned that it was better to cut a guy loose as soon as I realized that we weren't compatible. Compatability works both ways: they have to be willing to learn and execute what they are taught and I have to have the ability to teach them. If either of those elements weren't there, it never got better. I learned to part company in as little as 15 minutes. I fired one guy before he ever got out of the truck on his first day (for a good reason, of course). I'm sure many would say he was the lucky guy....The main reason for getting rid of a guy within fifteen minutes was that he lied about his experience. I don't mind a guy stretching his experience level a bit to be hired in, but if he does that, he better not have already negotiated his compensation package. For instance, one "experienced framer" didn't know how to clean the snow off a lumber pile. He went to his truck and went home, I swept the snow off. Explanation: all the framers that I ever worked with broke a sweat cleaning that stuff off and were well heated up by the time the started rolling out. Do you think that is tough? We used to come in early to clean snow off so we would be ready to get to "real work" at starting time. Different generations...different expectations. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Part of my job as a lead on a large project was to train the new guys. I trained dozens of them in one year. I found one crackhead to be untrainable. There was also a young guy who thought he was a great framer and would not listen. He would argue with me. He came from a background where if it doesn't fit, you force it. I come from a background where if it doesn't fit, you did something wrong. I finally told the boss it was him or me. He was sent to another jobsite three miles away.
On this project I had to train some guys who came in claiming ten years of experience. I quickly found out that many of these guys had one year of experience ten times. I believe that you can become a pretty good framer in one year, and great in two to three - this being mainly due to more experience at solving different problems as well as figuring things out faster.
I also had a fair number of people who had to be taught the same thing every morning. They generally worked as told for the entire day, but if not reminded of what to do the next day, they would fall back into their old tricks. These people generally stayed on my crew under my close supervision. I believe the problems were a combination of lower intelligence, drugs, and an off-duty life that was without direction.
Because this was a government project and talent in the local area was in short supply, these folks were kept on. The contractor was probably lucky to break even. This was due to another set of problems which started with his first framing contractor heading out of state with his $50K first payment, and ended with the supintendent being fired near the end of the project for having over $60K in lumber stored at his home in the country.
Because this was a government project and talent in the local area was in short supply, these folks were kept on. The contractor was probably lucky to break even. This was due to another set of problems which started with his first framing contractor heading out of state with his $50K first payment, and ended with the supintendent being fired near the end of the project for having over $60K in lumber stored at his home in the country
Sounds like a govt job.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
It sounds like your experiences with training rough framers mirrors my experiences. The only difference seems to be that for most of my career, I was the decision maker. It took me a few years but eventually I learned that as soon as I had the thought that someone wasn't going to work out, it was never going to change and I reacted immediately. I also learned another really important fact: if I don't release the guy immediately, I'm not looking for the replacement. Those two facts caused me to be very fast with the trigger. Every time I was slow, it hurt both of us. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
A philosopher who I will not name because he is misunderstood and unpopular said that you can tell a master because he is able to act immediately, without hesitation, and correctly.
I got my PSL2E compliments of Calvin and his gift drive for Riverfest.<!----><!----><!---->
Besides the companies' generosity in donating it, my correspondence to thank Mike was promptly answered and my follow up questions about what I could expect in features of their other lasers was also responded to quickly.<!----><!---->
After hearing how they are handling this parts issue, I wouldn't consider any other laser then those made by PLS.<!----><!---->
Terry<!----><!---->
Just started this thread, so don't know the story comes out, but my 2 cents would be that it might not be cost effective to repair it even if they had parts. I wouldn't be surprised if the repair was 50% or better of the cost of a new one.
And I agree that the PLS2 has been a handy tool.
[edit to add] Looks like the story turned out OK. Nice to see good customer service.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Edited 12/31/2007 11:28 am by JohnT8
I didn't read the whole thread but it looks like heres one on eBay for 19 + 6 shipping maybe it has the parts you need
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PARTS-PLS2-SELF-LEVELING-PALM-LASER-PLUMB-LEVEL_W0QQitemZ330099692872QQihZ014QQcategoryZ42298QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118
Edited 12/31/2007 12:49 pm ET by skip555
The problem with mine - and the majority, probably - is the optics. The optical package isn't cheap; according to the repair service you could expect to pay well over $100 to get it replaced. The lasers on your e-bay link appear to be missing the optical assembly, though I'm just guessing. I don't think they would try to sell a working unit for $19, but who knows?
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I kind of have mixed emotions about the whole "support the product" versus "technological advancements".
First, yes it's nice to be able to buy something and expect:
1) It to work for a few years (although that doesn't always happen, due to either manufacturer's defects or to our own mishaps)
2) To be able to have this item repaired at a reasonable cost for the foreseeable future.
3) To be warned up front that, the intended long term support (including availability of parts and actual repair) of this product (in this day and age) may only be 18 months, 3 years, etc.
However, as fast as technology changes, companies "partner" with other companies to buy parts in bulk, companies have to get the "next product" to market faster to be able to compete, etc, etc.... I think some (mostly repair wise) of those above wishes are just that..wishes.
When it gets down to it though, if I buy a product, and 2 years later it needs repair which would normally cost $100...but the company says we've exhausted our supply of parts.... then the company says..."hey look, normally YOU (the customer) would be paying $100 to fix a 2 year old product. Due to circumstances (no matter whose fault it is), we cannot service that product anymore. So, to make it up to you, for an extra $30 (over the $100), we will give you a newer and better (hopefully) product. In this case, when it's all said and done, it does work out well for both (manufacturer and customer).
On the other hand, if along with the "technological advancements" and "shortened life cycles", quality goes downhill...well then that's a different story...
Now, on a different note. I have a couple gripes with PLS's documentation and website:
As mentioned in the PLS180 post, there is some confusion as to which detectors work with which lasers. There should be NO confusion about this at all. Searching products from different resellers (Amazon, Northwest Power Tools, etc), I've seen a # of different PLS detectors sold. Granted, I understand the 5x is a point to point beam, versus the "fan" of the 2e, 180, 90, 360. However, it would be VERY SIMPLE for PLS to CLEARLY document this on their website. It would kind of them to LIST:
- EVERY laser (and model #) sold (current and recent past)
- EVERY detector (and model #) sold (current and recent past)
- LIST a FULL COMPATIBILITY chart to make it CLEAR to EVERYONE!!!
- (ok, rant over....lol).
In this day and age (again....technological advancements, etc, etc), this is NO excuse for not having a compatibility chart on a company's website which would help educate the customers, help clear up confusion, make more informed purchasing decisions, help them know UP FRONT the different detectors they would need, etc.
So, if PLS is reading (and I know they do), how about posting something official on your website to clear that issue up for everyone.
Happy New Year!!
James
I agree completely with having a complete compatibility table. This is not something that is found anywhere, in my experience, no matter what the product. This is something that needs to happen in this age of change and innovation. Manufacturers and sellers are not smart on this issue yet; however, almost any consumer with a brain larger than a walnut realizes that this is a much-needed innovation. I think we will see it happening at some point, but not without a little scuttlebutt activity.
James:
Please look at our PLS website and tell me where this information about the two types of detectors would be best located.
Many thanks
Mike
PLS
Mike,
The most basic way would be by going by the "current" menu/navigation of your site and staying with the "Product Specs" page. There you list all your current lasers. (I noticed you recently removed the 2E from that page but where would an individual find info on that laser anymore? We'll get to that in a bit)
However, I like a more broken down, easy to navigate, "cut and clear" website. First, at a bare minimum, I would like to see a "Products" page that is broken down a bit more than what you have (by having all lasers on 1 page). I would break that page down by either:
- Laser
- Detectors
Better yet, I'd like to see the product info broken down even further such as:
- Lasers:
- Rotary (1000, 500, etc)
- Fan (360, 90, 180, etc)
- Point to point (3, 5, 5x, etc)
- Detectors (PLS -LD, PLS-SLD, PLS-5X, etc). note: these are just some of the abbreviations I've seen for these.
- Accessories
- Tripods
- Grade Rods
- Etc
When it comes to lasers, in addition to a separate "Detail" page for each laser, I'd like to see a "Comparison Chart", listing all the "Specs" you list for the individual models such as:
- Range with detector
- Range w/o detector
- Accuracy to say 30'
- Accuracy to say 100'
- Accuracy to say 250', etc
- Battery type, # required
- Battery life
- Does it work with a detector?
- Mounting mechanism (floor stand, wall bracket, etc)
- Threaded tripod adapter and if so, size (1/4-20, 5/8-11, etc)
- Is there an offset of 1" like with the PLS5?
- Leveling range
- Dimensions
- Weight
- Pouch
- Case
- Retail Model #/Package # if laser is sold w/o detector
- Retail Model #/Package # if laser is sold as kit with detector
- Etc
Basically a chart that shows me all the specific info, side by side at one time.
On the detectors page, in addition to specs on each one, I'd also like to see a table/chart in a column/row format listing all detectors (current and discontinued) on one axis, and all lasers (current and discontinued) on the other axis. In the cells where the two cross, I'd like to see the compatibility between the two maybe in 2 or 3 different options such as:
- Full compatibility (for example, does a detector work in both directions (horizontal/vertical) for a PLS90 or PLS180 or only 1 direction such as with the PLS360 (horizontal)?
- Partial compatibility (maybe with footnotes leading to explanations)
- No compatibility
Another route is to include a "Support" page where you could list:
- All "discontinued" products.
- Compatibility chart
- FAQ
As I mentioned earlier regarding the removal of the 2E from your site (or at least I didn't see it), I personally am a big fan of a company that lists their archived/discontinued products and lists the specs, FAQ's, etc about them. Believe it or not, sometimes 5 years later, a consumer wants to be able to go back and check on something, but when a company completely removes that older product from their site, that's not very consumer friendly (to me at least). The 2E was just removed recently from the sale's channel and it's completely vanished from your site (again, if it's there and I missed it, I apologize). Another one I'm curious about is the PLS360. Now and then I'll see someone selling a 360 and they claim it does not work with a detector...that was the older version, the 360, not the 360E correct? Or did I miss something there? See these are the small things that make it a bit more difficult to compare your products.
Anyways, these are just some thoughts on what I'd like to see. Yes, I know, sometimes I ramble on a bit....
James
Edited 1/8/2008 10:28 pm ET by jja28
OK James, good feedback albeit quite a menu. I'll continue working on the website progressively and as we add new or remove old products I'll look at these recommendations.
The website needs to be a tool all customers can use. Some folks want very little information and others want more. It always will be a work in progress.
I just added a Green Beam HVR 500 G rotary laser to our group but it's not on the website yet so you can expect more changes soon.
I appreciate the support and interest in making PLS a better company.
Regards to all.
Mike
PLS
Mike,
As has already been said, good of you to come here and interact with us. I know from personal experience that you and your staff readily answer questions when contacted directly. I'm sure most of the time that would be the way to get answers to any particular questions your customers might have.
It's good of you to stay abreast of the discussion and enter into it when you think necessary.
I mention this because Taunton over the years has had to walk a thin line on use of this board for advertising. The easy decisions are on those that come here and post about their product and how you can make a purchase. Harder ones seem to be indirect links for a sale. The latter happens seldom and when it does there's mixed reaction on whether that concern is justified. I'm hoping there's not going to be any negative response to your appearance here.
I think you show your good intentions by simply not including a link to your company. I think, as do others I assume, that you are doing a good thing by showing up here.
Thanks!A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Understand completely.
Thanks
Mike
You're welcome.
And please, don't take my comments wrong. For a supplier to show up is a great opportunity for us on the board. We welcome your participation. A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I agree 100% as I am sure others here do, it's nice to talk to someone at a company that you give money to.
I found his advice on tools to be very helpful. If he wouldn't have stepped I'd still be out yelling at my 5x detector while trying to use it with my 180. :)
He hasn't pushed his product to anyone, he doesn't have to. I'll tell everyone for him. I use them almost daily and found my money was well spent, as I am sure you would agree. Woods favorite carpenter
money well spent.
Believe it. The only better or equal service I get is from my main tool supplier and I've known the family for over 30 years.
Mike I've never met, but if ever in PLS land you can count on me showing up with a six pack.............well, depending on the size of the operation............A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I haven't gotten better service yet in my limited experience.
That says alot considering I spent about 10k in tools last year alone from various manufacturers.
Woods favorite carpenter
do you answer email?
I think he'll get it through BT. Give it a shot.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/