Plumber carved out giant holes in joists
We’re installing a new bathroom on the second floor, I’m doing everything except the plumbing and tile work. The new bath is above the 1st floor living room. The living room was completely gutted so the new plumbing could be run in the first floor ceiling and then stub up into the bathroom.
The plumber ran a 3″ PVC waste line through the 2×8 joists, almost perfectly midspan. They used a reciprocating saw to make the holes and said they needed to make them greater than the pipe OD to let them work in the pipe.
My concern is the holes are large. The 3″ pipe goes through 4 joists, 16″ on center. 3 of the four joists are sistered. The original joists are old growth and dimensionally 2″ wide. What was used to sister them is nominal 2×8’s. The worst case hole is through one of the sistered joists, the openning on one side is 5-1/4″ and 4-1/2″ on the other side, the other 3 joists have holes closer to 4″.
I was planning on leveling the new bath floor, it maybe 1-1/4 mud thickness towards the middle, but I’m concerned about the strenght of the floor framing.
About 12″ away from the waste line on one side is the 3/4″ water lines.
Am I over reacting? If not, what can I do to help strengthen my floor framing.
Any help would be greatly appreciatted.
Tim
Replies
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Nope you are not overreacting....The plumbers need their heads examined.
The holes are way too big even if they are thru doubled joists .
Get a carpenter in there and either rip out the pipe they put in and run it thru a soffet or rip out the pipe they put in and header out for the pipe run.
But please do get a carpenter there to repair the joists they are no good the way it is now.
Why would you approve of this in the first place ? Did you not look at the plans? Why did you not run plumbing parallel too the joist ,then down a wall.
It really is way too much cutout and in the wrong place in the joists. Something's gotta give, and it will, believe it. This isn't one of those amybe it'll get by for a few years things. The plumber destroyed the joists.
Can you replace ceiling below to put in a soffit to carry the lines or drop the whole ceiling to use 2x12's instead?
You do need to cut out the plumbing to get the carpentry right but before you start, have a plan that will work for both of you.
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May I ask a question - I'm not trying to hijack the thread.
I went to see a friend's new house under construction since I saw the car there, today.
I saw the plumber had run the main waste stack up inside the exterior wall and completely cut the double plate at the top. Worse, he cut about 1/3 of the way up the box joist.
I can't think of a way to repair the damage, and I understand the framing has passed inspection.
I cannot imagine this is good. Am I wrong?Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
It's not good but it isn't going to be likely to fail either, given all the other elements that are acting together to prevent spread, like the sheathing on roof and wall to lend shear. The only thing that that plate is doing is keeping the wall from tearing apart from tension. If there is that much tension in the wall, the foundation is failing and there are bigger fish to fry. As is, some metal band strap or mending plate can take care of things.
Not sure who designed and planned that house, but there should be a plumbing stack wall provided and noted in the plans for venting, and it should be in the right place to be useable for the plumber.
On the job I'm doing now, I had the main plumber out to preview and advise - old houses with timber frames can be challenging. Then his helper stopped by the other day to tinker with my job heateers and I reviewed with him, especially at one ticklish location, saying, "It'll be tricky, but I'm sure you can do it"
his reply - "I'm not gonna sugart coat things for you man, We're gonna cut whatever we need to cut to get where we're going"
I told him then don't cut anything until you have me here. I called the boss plumber out and we had a conference and agreed on what would work for all of us.
The whole point of this is that planning and communications are needed for multiple trades to work together. Second guessing after the fact when proper planning may have been neglected that could have avoided the problem is going at it backwards.
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Then his helper stopped by ... We're gonna cut whatever we need to cut to get where we're going" At that point I would have called the owner and explained that the helper was no longer welcome on the site. That's the kind of attitude that causes problems like we're discussing.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
I included that to demonstrate how common that attitude is amoung plumbers, and I'm sure you read that I did get the owner over to the job and we worked out the right plan.
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not only can you cut the double plate you have to
the pipe is the same size as the plate jesus everyone so fast to critisize the plumber
The truth to the matter is there are more carpenters that are hacks than plumbers
Where'd you get your information aj?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
i cant beleive how many framers cant make a shower square so i tear it out and rebuild it.
I guess we're not on the same page aj. You match a dumb plumbing job with some framers that don't know square. Would you agree wrong is wrong?
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
yes i agree but i hear all the time the plumber drilled a 4 inch hole in my joist. Ah yeah you need one. But the center spann is bad.
aj, good framer's build with all the trades in mind. They leave you a space for the tub drain etc. Remodels are a different thing entirely. You have what you have. You need to get what they want. You don't cut the damn house up without thinking. What we're talking about is a poor bastard that's contracting his own job, thinks everyone is good and got took. Would you have run your drain that way without opening your mouth and suggesting something? And if you were the boss, would you have sent the goon without some direction?
oh yeah, and welcome to Breaktime.
New guy buys.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
AJ is my plumber. He gets a little defensive when his fellow tradesmen get scolded. (As you've noticed.) I've seen a few jobs that he has done for other GC's and most of them could care less about the floor joist layout for the plumbing. I can assure you that he isn't a hack. This guy does some nice work. Here's a pic to show the pride he takes in his craftsmanship.
eric, next time warn us.
next time walk into this place with the boy.
He doesn't have a brother named larry does he?
Seriously, nice job aj. What's eric building?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thank you! Thats not erics house thats an addition were i did the heat. And i actually do have respect. Beleive it ir not right now i happened to run into like 4 terrible gc's almost all of them im the only guy left working there.
You're welcome.
Now where's the beer new guy?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
So that's why I can't get any more than 1/4 impulse power.
You give back my warp drive - NOW!
Ralph ya lost me brotha.
I think ralph is saying that it looks as neatly engineered and as powerful as scotty's engine room on the starship Enterprise
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I've been following this thread and it has raised a question in my mind. Various people have written that drilling a hole in the center span of a joist was the worst possible scenario. I might be crazy (feel free to tell me if I am) but I was always under the impression that at center span the wood in the center of a joist was under the least stress of anywhere else in the joists span. I thought this was the case because the forces of tension and compression were equal at mid-span. Isn't this the theory behind I-Joists. I realize a notch cut at center span would be a worst case scenario effectively reducing the strength of the joist but is this really the case with a hole??
By asking this question I don't mean to imply cutting a five inch hole in a 2X8 joist is acceptable. I only ask it so I can better understand where you can/can't cut holes in joists and where is the "best" place to cut a hole if you have to. Thanks for any help you can give.
If you are going to drill a hole in a beam the midspan is the best place to do it. The beam has maximum moment and zero shear at this location. At the beam ends the beam has zero moment and maximum shear; a hole here is usually not a good idea. However, all this is moot. The holes that ARE in this beam are way too large for the beam depth. If I were the owner I would want new beams and an altered plumbing run. (I'm a structural engineer).
You're assuming a uniformly distributed load over the entire span with no point loads which is not necessarily true. Distributed load might not be uniform. A point load might be located at 1/3 of l, in which case the moment is largest at that point and not at mid-span. For a point load at mid-span the shear is not zero there, but rather changes from +P/2 to -P/2 at point of load P, although as you say the shear diagram is zero at mid-span for a uniformly distributed load. For a point load P located elsewhere, say at x, shear diagram shows shear as Px/l from support to load P and P(l-x)/l thereafter to other support.
If the joists have been sistered (on both sides I think if I've followed correctly) and have been 'sufficiently fixed' (not sure what code constitutes as being so, anyone have a spec outlining requirements?) to the original joist as to transfer the load then the resulting moment of inertia of the built-up member exceeds that of the original 2 X 8, as does the area to compute shear stress.
Yes, I was assuming a uniformly distributed load. For a point load the numbers are even worse, as you point out. Sistered or not, I still think the hole is too large.
all the stresses of the load on the joist are at their exrtreme in the middle, opposite of the hole in center section. In section, the wood at top is loaded in compression at it's worst and the wood fibres at the bottom are loaded in tension at it's worst.
But imagine a joist at midspan being like a 1" stick that you take in both hands to flex to it's extreme breaking point. It breaks close to center rather than where your thumbs or fingers are near the ends of the stick because that is wehre it recieves the stress from BOTH ends of the stick and where the load is leveraged also.
I don't know if anyone has bothered to look up and read the PDF file i linked to above or not. It is quite clear on allowable and unallowable holes and nothcs in joists.
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What is that, a panel on the Space Shuttle? Seriously, I'm sure AJ does nice work. I know alot of grouchy guys who do nice work though. Doesn't excuse the attitude. So sorry he HAS TO come here every night and hear us complain about a plumber cutting mining shafts through framing. We should just all be happy that our jobs are graced by the presence of these hallowed plumbers.
(bowing as I back out of the room)
DieselPig, If it were only built for space shuttle (sigh..)Actually its a 3 zone radiant and 3 zone hot water baseboard system connected to an argo control, with a radiant steel panel for supplemental heat in the master bath.They'll be a quiz next time. =)Erik
"...everyone so fast to critisize the plumber"
Not everyone there old boy. Maybe you didn't read the whole thread.
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"No one in his right mind would bore (or saw) upper and lower plates for a 3" pipe drop in an exterior 2 X 4 wall".
from 'Plumbing a House', by Peter Hemp, page 119. (part of the Taunton For Pros / By Pros series)
If Tom meant that dead-center of joist meant a hole cut about the center of the cross-section then this is the ideal position of the cut-out. Positioning the hole closer to either the top or bottom of the joist reduces the section modulus of the joist more drastically than a hole about the center.
reread post, and never saw what the span is?
The best practical suggestion has already been said, a 3/4 ply ceiling - but mind the details of that approach which weren't delineated. Be sure to glue (real wood glue, not drywall adhesive) and screw and place face grain in line with the joist, not across as normally done for a floor, full 8 ft sheet with center under the spot with the holes. If you want to use #8 drywall screws, it takes about one per inch near the ends of the plywood sheet to get to the full plywood tensile strength capability, spacing can be up to 3" ner the center span. Good idea to glue/screw the subfloor above also.
DIY, sure as heck don't let the plumbers put it up <G?>
Aren't drywall screws too brittle for structural use? Shouln't one be using a more ductile screw such as McFeeley's sells?
JEt boy (hey, you from here?, Renton used to be , before Everett and Toulouse, the 'Jet capital of the world'.)
The "drywall screw" is a common gotcha subject on BT. IMHO, they are OK even for structural use if enough are used, in the example, a "good" screw of #10 size would suffice at 2" spacing.
Span is approx 15.5 feet, the holes are about 7 feet out, if anythinig they are closer to the top of the joist (at least in the case of the 5.5" hole).
Spoke with the owner earlier today, he's coming out 8 AM tomorrow to see for himself (the owner did the estimate and also came back with his workers after we entered an agreement to review the job with them). I told him I did not feel comfortable with what his men did, it doesn't look safe and clearly is not within code (mind you we did not pull permits for this job). He said there are things that could be done to strengthen the holes they cut (even now, after the fact). I told him I didn't see how, on one side of the waste line he ran the water lines, they are about 10" from the holes he cut.
I expect an argument. He said on the phone that he told me they were running 3" lines and I should have been aware. In my favor I've only paid him $2000 of the $6800 (they've completed nearly all the rough in) and the code is clearly on my side.
I expect them to heavily push the idea of strengthening the joists after the fact and the point that I knew they were going to cut in a 3" pipe through my joists.
I really appreciate the advice all of you have posted.....
If your floor joists are spanning 15.5 ' with a2x8 at 16"oc, you already have a trampoline. Holes that big is scary-failure-rupture scary.
You are right, this was over spanned and understructured before the plumber ever saw it! I don't go over 12' as a geneeral rule with 2x8@16
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I've got a similar situation coming up on my remodel in a week or two when I start the plumbing. I need to run a 3" waste line over to the main stack. Three joists will have to be bored (2x10's 16" o.c. spanning 13'). The holes will all be within 4' of end. Old ceiling joist 2x6's sistered alongside the 2x10's also. One of the joists is doubled up with a wall of dormer above. I was going to use schedule 30 to match existing so the way I've got it figured......it's damn close right now..........1/3 of 2x10---->a little over 3".....hole will need to be about 3 1/4 -3 3/8. Would you worry bout this one?
Not trying to hijack but it seemed like a good time to chime this in
Jim
my first reply in this thread contains link to a PDF download with all the real stuff on boring floor joists.
Since you have extra sistering, you are probably OK on marginal stuff. Keep in midsection and be neat. If you have checking or big knots, sister a plywood with construction adhesive and nails
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" He said there are things that could be done to strengthen the holes they cut (even now, after the fact)."
He can strengthen the holes all he wants. It is the joists that need strength
;o)
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I expect them to heavily push the idea of strengthening the joists Suggest a deal to them: call an engineer or architect to the job and get a professional (in writing) opinion, and if the engineer says the holes are ok, then you'll pay the consulting fee and go sit in a corner. If the engineer says there's a problem, then the plumber will pay for the consulting fee and all costs to resolve the structural issue. Get the engineering response in writing so there's no question later about he-said-I-said.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
Sorry Tim are you the plumbers boss and instructor? If nothing else this is total disrespect for the house framing and who every installed same. 2x8 is on the minimum size for the span un-cut. Having been "victimized" like this in the past. One one job I ended up installing 1.25 x .250 steel straps the full width of the room lag screwed every 10" to the over drilled joists. The floor is very stiff now and no cracks in the tile work. This "fix" installed over 10 years ago and I still know the home owner.
but he didn't say midsection, he said midspan, which is the worst position
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If you have a building permit, I'm sure the inspector would love to take a look at the situation. If you don't but should have, it might still be worth it to do whatever it takes to get the authorities on your side.
Why is it always falling on the next guy to fix the first guys goof. Honestly, just reading your post got me all fried and it's not even my job. I think too many people let shtheads get away with being a shthead. Make the plumber fix it. At least make him pay for it. And no, I think that there is no grey area here about what should have been done..... when the plumber saw the situation and decided on that course of action, he should have at least had a secondary conversation about it with the carpenters.
Sorry to get so worked up but I had a shthead roofer on my job (my own house that I'm building) and while I wasn't there, he made a bad decision on my behalf without a word to anyone else (other people were on site representing me). Now, I'm stuck with his bad decision and can't really do anything about it. Of course I'll short pay the job for his 27 IQ decision making.
Rob Kress
I work in the construction business, this company came highly recommended and with the exception at hand, their work has been very good.
I'm not sure why, but I feel responsible. I laid out the bathroom, I had some general idea of where the pipes would run, but it wasn't until after I saw the holes that I realized it doesn't look safe.
Is it fair to expect a plumber to know whats acceptable to cut into a joist and what isn't?
And for the other post, no, this isn't a permitted job.
I have sought the advice of a professional carpenter, someone I trust and a avid FHB reader, while he was concerned, he said there were some things I could do to ratify the situation without taking out the piping. Based on the posts above I'm having doubts....
sleepless tim
The plumber should have known, if he didn't he has no right to be in the trade.
I laid out the bathroom, I had some general idea of where the pipes would run, Did you tell him where to run the pipes? Or did you just tell him where the fixtures were to be located? makes a difference in who's responsible. Maybe he thought you told him to put the pies there, and he was just following instructions. Maybe he just didn't care, as long as the check cleared the bank. Easy for us to sit in judgement, but we're not on site. Sounds like the plumber was wrong, but how do you get him to fix it?Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
I can see Tim sharing some of the blame on himself with the plumber since he was the one incharge. I wasn't there but the plumber may have felt like he wasin the position of being left with no choice but...
And the guy in charge is always responsible for everyone under him, ultimately.
But
That said, average plumbers are notorious for only using only enough IQ to match normal houshold water pressure.
For that reason, and because of past experiences like this, I always take extra steps to plan water courses with my plumbers and identify what changes I need to make before they open the sawsall kit. I idnetify which structural elements they are not going to touch if they want to get paid.
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Oh piffin, that wasn't the last post I wanted to read before I go into with the plumber tomorrow morning. I'm a very reasonable person and I can see the plumber guilting me into either accepting his work or paying for the extra time to make it right.............
Then see my reply to David #33 and to Aaron
Accepting his strengthening idea ( whatever it is) should depend on his gauranteeing in writing that it will not cause structural failure in the lifespan of the building.
I can think of a couple of creative ways ( not the 3/4" plywood, please) to strengthen the joists as they are, but it would be more expensive than the advice you already have, to tear out the plumbing and reframe the floor.
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Your idea about getting a written gaurantee from the plumber based on his strengthening the joists advice is a great idea. If he is so confident that this isn't an issue then he should have no problem putting in writting. I don't think he'll do this and that, together with the code, I hope I can leverage into a solution.
together with the code, I hope I can leverage into a solution
How about this, you don't fix this to my satisfaction you don't get paid? If you are not happy with it and it is reasonable to assume it will fail in time don't pay him until it gets fixed. DanT
The owner and his workers came this morning.
Before I go on, let me say the owner is near 60, his two workers are in their 30's. They came highly recommended by a GC who has worked with them for some 10 years and has used them repeatedly (although not exclusively). I hired them based on the recommendation (they were by far not the cheapest), and also because I felt comfortable leaving them home with my wife and child. The first day they worked, I spent the day with them, they worked hard, took a short lunch, and got done what needed to be finished by the first day (the old waste line was put in after the house was built and completely severed one of the joists. They had to cut out the old waste lines, cut back the water lines, let me sister 2 of the joists, and temporarily reconnect the new waste line to the second floor existing shower, the only shower in the house) I saw this because after reading all the posts it appears as though they are coming off as fly by night crooks who do shotty work. With the exception of this one issue and thats not the case, they've very been good.
When the owner saw the holes he said I have nothing to worry about. The larger holes (5-1/2") were in joists that were sistered, and only on one side, the other side was closer to 4". The joists in question were between the Tub and shower stall (meaning not supporting the tub or shower). He invited me bring in a building inspector and with bracing the holes (framing on each side with plywood glued and nailed into the joists) it would pass, as it has passed in the past when doing other remodeling jobs like these. He said the heaviest thing that that area of the joists needs to support is the vanity, which with a corian counter top is a minimal load.
He said he would gaurantee it in writting against sagging or failing structurally.
not the 3/4" plywood, please
Why not? (glued and screwed of course, with center of sheet at the hole)
Ifyou ever fly your life depends on the same structural skin effect!
The plywood idea was intriguing, although I think my problem is too severe for this approach. Also I'd be concerned about the additional weight on the joists.
I just didn't understand the part where you explained the orientation of the plywood. The 8' dimension of the plywood would run parrallel to the joists?
8' dim. parallel to joists, yes.
Weight of ply not a problem, it is part of the 'new beam structure'. Screw up a 1/16 aluminum or steel plate even, but do not use drywall screw for that. You can get away with drywall screws with the plywood when using a good yellow glue.
Refer to a structural text on built up beams for how this works and is even stronger than the original 2x8s. Best to glue the above sub floor also.
A structural skin still needs something to hang on and it transfers the loads transversly throughout the entire membrane. Since this floor spans nearly 16' and a sheet of ply is only eight feet, I doubt the benefit is more than enough to support the weight of the plywood itself, let alone correct all the other problems here. under ideal conditions, a s tress skinned panel can do the job, I'm sure, but this thing is definitely not ideal. I shy away from recommending anything out on the edge for anyone who is a novice to this sort of thing. Even if I did it, I'd want every little thing to be perfect, and to my thinking, it is going to be cheaper to just reframe than to try to shoehorn a maybe fix in there.
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Is it fair to expect a plumber to know whats acceptable to cut into a joist and what isn't?
It is fair to expect a plumber to know what a joist is. And in that condition, it is also fair to expect that if he is about to cut a significant portion of it away...... he needs to ask someone who knows more than him about joists before he does it!!! No I don't think he needs to know everything. Just recognize when he doesn't and when to go asking for more info and clarification. This plumber is either lazy or a complete idiot. And in both circumstances, he should pay.
Rob Kress
" Is it fair to expect a plumber to know whats acceptable to cut into a joist and what isn't?"
If the plumber is to be allowed to cut wood, the plumber is responsible for the necessary judgement required.
Two things: Show this hack job to anyone who "highly recommended" these jokers to you, and anyone else you can get to take a look. Tell everyone how good they really are. If you have paid them in full, appeal to the owner or whomever you can for them to pay for repairs as necessary. Worst case, you cut your losses and take care of the repairs yourself, eat it, or do it the American way and litigate. I hate lawyers, so personally, I would make the necessary repairs and move on.
The other Tim
"... personally, I would make the necessary repairs and move on."
Me too, Well said,
and time for us to do the same, eh?
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1) the Sawzall is the wrong tool. A Hole Hawg (or just a 1/2" drill) turning a hole saw takes just a bit longer but takes out a minimum of material and the round hole leaves a stronger joist than a jagged one.
2) If they were 2x12, sure, use a 4" hole saw and slip them in really easy. But in a 2x8, if doing it at all, you'd have to minimize the hole size (3.5") and use a coupling between every joist ($1 each, big whoopie!)
3) But this is a 2x8 so why not use 3" copper and save another 3/8" of an inch of wood? Nothing prevents a real plumber from using DWV copper in a tight spot. It is only required for commercial work, but should be in one's bag of trick for every job.
All the above presume you directed him to drill through those joists (i.e. blast out 3.5"/8" = 44% of the wood). Even so, he shouldn't have removed 5.5"/8" = 69% of the wood.
If you didn't direct him to blast through joists that were too small in the first place, he definitely should have proposed a different run or use of a soffit.
P.S. Next time you run a toilet drain above the living room, spec cast iron. It is the same O.D. but MUCH quietier. After you've had company over for dinner and are all relaxing on the couch, you really don't want to hear breakfast get flushed downstreamed. C.I. makes a big difference.
P.P.S. Take out the pipe and repair the joists as everyone says. But use some wood I-beams if you can find them in 7.25". They are much more tolerant of have the middle blasted out of them.
Myself, I reckon a Plumber who does that sorta thing is an eejit.
I dont expect all the trades to know everyone elses jobs, but i do expect them to have enough common sense to see that if a great big hole is fanged through a joist that there isnt going to be much wood left, and THEN, say something like......"I need to get a pipe from here to here, can I drill through this?"
My answer might be "No, but you can go around here". Simple, no fuss.
A plumber I worked alongside once fired an employee for drilling a massive hole through 3 supporting studs when moving easily 4 inches to the left would have meant no drilling at all. No excuse for such idiocy.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW
David,
I haven't read all the way through yet so maybe sombody else has noted this, but the joists had been sistered with new so they were 3.5" thick, meaning that the space between was only 12.5" if on 16" centers. That means that the plumber had to get the 16" piece in there on quite an angle, which is probably why he cut the oversized hole. Of course the right way to do that would be to bore twin holes overlapping tocreate an oblong hole horixontally without taking so much vertical mass out of the joist.
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"meaning that the space between was only 12.5" if on 16" centers. That means that the plumber had to get the 16" piece in there on quite an angle, which is probably why he cut the oversized hole."
Oh, I realized that, just didn't get into that detail. Yes, you'd need to use 12" lengths of ABS pipe or maybe 14.5 if slipped in one of the end joist bays (unsistered?). For 3 bays, needs just one more coupling (4x12 = 3x16). So no oversized hole is needed, just another coupling.
Another advantage of TJIs, right? A just slightly oversized hole is big enough to take more than 16". And, since (smoothly curved!) oblong cuts are also allowed*, you can actually get in 31" pieces pretty easily.
* which is done with a regular hole saw, started with a long 1/4" pilot bit. Then angle the main hole saw 30-40 degrees or so. Don't cut all the way through on the first one. Do another, opposite one with the pilot hole moved about 2 inches along the joist. Now you've got a nice, smooth 3.5" x 5" oblong hole for fitting in 31" pieces.
* or make a template for the Roto-zip or mini router or freehand (carefully) with a jig saw.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
"If they were 2x12, sure, use a 4" hole saw and slip them in really easy. But in a 2x8, if doing it at all, you'd have to minimize the hole size (3.5") and use a coupling between every joist ($1 each, big whoopie!) "
Dave:
You're talking some large holes! Just FYI, our here in CA my engineer usually limits holes located in the center (mid-depth) to D/4 where D is the joist depth. That means the max. for 2x8 would be a +/- a 1-3/4" hole, and that is only if it is centered within the joist depth. For whatever it's worth...
"You're talking some large holes!"
No, I'm discouraging large holes. But again, I wouldn't worry about a 4" round hole in the middle of a 2x12 that spanned 15 feet. Would you? 15 feet with a 2x12?
But if you are using an engineer, they should be looking at the specific application and not blindly apply some rule (e.g. D/4) just because it eliminates more difficult math or thinking. Regular span tables and hole allowances do that for you without the hourly billing rate.
And in the 2x8 spanning 15 feet, the DWV shouldn't be run there - we're all in agreement there, I think. But if someone choose to make that mistake, they shouldn't further compound it by making a larger-than-needed hole for a larger-OD-than-needed pipe.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
A SawZall to cut a hole?
Thats like using a 28oz waffle head hammer to nail pine trim up.
A good plumber should have all the bits necessary.
Sounds to me like he got lazy.
Not to say anything bad about plumbers but they seem to be notorious for this not to mention always leaving their debris more than any other trade.
A good plumber that does the right thing is hard to find.
If it were me, I'd just talk to him and see if he'd be reasonable about the repair work cause my guess is that he knows what was done was wrong. He just got lazy and sloppy.
BE well
andy
"My life is my practice"
"Not to say anything bad about plumbers but they seem to be notorious for this not to mention always leaving their debris more than any other trade."
The carpenters do seem pleasantly surprised when I ask their opinion about pipe run options and which would do the least harm. I get the impression they aren't often asked. I know enough about framing (as anyone blasting through wood should) to do a reasonable job, but maybe they're planning on a waterbed in one spot or some other point load that isn't aparent to me.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
The situation may not be as dire as you think. It depends in part on the location of the hole in the joist. You stated mid-span so I think you mean midway of the depth of the joist. Dead-center would be the best possible place to have made the hole assuming that the joist cross-section is rectangular or symmetric about a horizontal axis. Another important factor is where the cut-outs were made in the span of the joist. If the bathroom and cutouts are closer to an exterior wall rather than at midspan of the joist then that is also a less critical situation in terms of the bending capacity of the reduced joist. The reduction in the joist's cross-section has reduced both it's shear area as well as the moment of inertia (I) or section modulus (S) of the joist. Usually the stress associated with bending is more critical than that associated with shear. I'd get the building inspector or perhaps an engineer, at the plumber's expense, to look at it and prescribe a possible remedy. Alternatives if any, as previously stated, could be as simple as sistering additional material onto the reduced joists. There are probably local codes which would specify the length required on the sistered material but should of course span across the remaining area of the reduced section.
Here in Los Angeles, there are just too many Plumbers who are not qualified. None of your repair plumbers know how to do the "rough in" job. Big companies like MD, GB, JS, AD (should I spell out the crooks names?) train in house, none went to a formal school. Those that went to school leave to a more reputable business.
"new bath is above the 1st floor living room. " So when someone uses the toilet its going to be noisy in the living room. Sheet the whole ceiling with 3/4" plywood, it will be stronger and quieter.
Those "plumber" who notch instead of bore also clamp the pipes tightly to the joist which allows you to hear singing pipes in the walls. Water pipes should not touch any wood. Other plumbers leave pipes loose, which rattle and bang (water hammer).
That plumber should quit running pipe and go to Meat cutting school!!!!!!!!!!!!! time for new plan, header it off or run it lower
Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing! Holmes Sr. Oliver Wendell
No, you are not over reacting. That is not acceptable. The rule of 1/3's applies here. A hole is acceptable when, it's diameter is no more than 1/3 the depth and in the center 1/3 of the span. He's violating the rule big time. The only solution is to remove the pipe and sister the joists. This must be done on the plumbers dime.
And, just to make sure the bashing goes around evenly. I've seen HVAC guys do the same thing. On one job, they actually totally cut off a joist so they could get a run in.
See http://www.nachi.org/tips/0326.gif.
I looked at that site -- it appears that we and the Canadians have our 1/4's and 1/3's the opposite way around on notching and boring. Any idea why?
-- J.S.
My story: The floor in my mother-in-law's bathroom was sagging in front of the toilet to the point where the seal to the waste pipe failed and the flooring began to rot. She got some estimates to repair and all were in the $2000 range. Since she was in the final stages of colon cancer, and passed away shortly after, our attendtion was focused elsewhere. Then my brother-in-law bought the house and asked me to take a look. Being a bachelor, his solution was to use another bathroom.
Turns out the bathroom was a remodel job to accommodate a handicapped child in the prior owner's family. To install the waste pipe for the toilet, a 2x12 joist just happend to be in the way. So someone decided to simply cut about 6 inches out of the joist to make room for the pipe. On one side of the cut a lolly column was installed to support the joist, but not on the other side of the cut. Over time...and lots of it, nearly 25 years, that poor ole unsupported portion of joist just got tired and decided to sag. Of course, it took the floor with it, and bathroom cabinets, etc.
My repair may not have been the best...I put another column up to support the sagging joist and then sistered in som 2x12's around the watse pipe. To level the cloor, the joist had to be raised almost 2 inches. Replaced the rotted subfloor and installed a new toilet. Every one in the family comments on how "high" the floor is. Come summer I guess I'm going to redo the whole room to bring it into this century...you should see the color of the wall tiles.
Now there's some bad plumbing! But note: it took a full quarter century to fail. My cynical side says: if you plan to move in the next few years, dry wall over the whole thing and go play golf or whatever. The side of me that keeps me awake at night says: fix it.
You wouldn't want to point out which ones, would you, for unlearned amoung us? I count myself as being unaware of anything they have that could salvage this mess.
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"Steel, LVLs, sure there's things that can be done, but nothing is going to support the floor in a two or three inch height-of-framing-member!"
Hasbeen,
I disagree. Not that it wouldn't cost you, but one could easily have a set of split (to get around the pipe) steel plates fabbed up that would sister those joists, and provide enough strength.
Jon
"I agree that it's theoritically possible. Have you ever done it? (Has anyone here ever done it?)
"Easily" is stretching things a bit,"
Hasbeen,
Well, now that the pipe is in, maybe. I would rip it out, But yes I have done it sort off.. Before I plumbed my upstairs bath, it was quite clear I had to pass a 3" drain pipe through one joist.
So I took 5" x .375" "U-channel" (two 6' sections) cut a hole big enough for the waste line to pass in them, as well as an appropriate # of nail and bolt holes in it. Fastened them to the joist (a 2 x6 in my case) then cut the hole in the wood for the pipe to pass AFTER they were installed. That was 7 years ago, there has been no measurable deflection. Probably way stronger than before.
It took less than an hour to fab them up, and cost maybe $20.. in mtrls.
Jon
Also, just for overkill, I epoxied them in place too.
It sounds like part of the problem as usually is you the gc. How would you like him to get the drain there? How about making a sophet which you most likely wouldnt want. The drain is 3 inch inside 3.5 outside and the fittings are 4 yes he needs to make the holes bigger to work so a 4 and an 1/8 hole is normal. Now you have 2*8 which are 7.5 not the greatest thing. The only thing i side with you on is that you are not supposed to drill in the center of the span almost no matter what size the hole. But of course again lets have the plumber work miracles. Everyone is so fast to critisize the plumber but dont have the answer on how to solve a problem such as yours. I took two carpenters to work with me for a while and they both now see the other side to the coin. Im sorry but i hear your post everyday and it pisses me off. The truth to the matter is there are more carpenters that are hacks than plumbers and since it sounds like your the home owner doing it himself you dont have a clue thats why your not doing the plumbing.
So.... what you're saying is that because the GC didn't hold his hand (obviously should have) then the plumber is in the right to do what he did? Is this what you are saying? So as a carpenter I should just put a point load where I know there isn't a footing because the concrete guy, site guy, or GC didn't catch it? That's a gigantic load of crap. There is no way you can justify the plumber's choice here. Granted the plumbing route should have been mapped out by the GC BEFORE the hole hawg came out, it still doesn't make it right to butcher the structure. Stop work and pick up the phone...is that so f'ing hard? Maybe the plumber shouldn't have been out putting his boat in the water while his crew trashed this guy's house huh? I can install a big door in a little rough opening by chopping out the header.....does this make it right? Who cares...the doors in, right? Check please....that's the bottom line, right?
With your attitude I'd throw you off my site in a New York second. Right on your finger pointin' arse.
Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Those are the guys who get to make a second appearance on my jobs.
yeah well i guess you put the header in to low just my point and i wouldn't work on your job in a new york minute because i would bang my head on the header.
Must be lonely being the only guy on a job who's not an idiot. I see guys like you all the time. Lonely, angry, and confused. Always pointing the finger at everyone else. Whining to the electrician about the framer. Whining to the finish guy about the electrician. Everyone's wrong except you.
You know what the real problem is?
YOU, man. It's you!
I'm gonna go make some popcorn I have a feeling this is gonna get good! =)
yeah was just im'ing eric telling him you hit on something i am lonley and angry but not confused. lol
I think it should be code for the plumbers not to own a sawsall or a chisel. =)
Oh yeah but when we roughed your house you sure learned how to use a sawsall quik and there were no chisels old 2 foot long screwdrivers.
forget the welcome.
start buying.
This isn't some joke here aj. There's a bit of respect that should be at least offered..............especially from a new guy.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Man, the resemblance of his prose to larry's is uncanny. Spelling's a little better................Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I did forget that sort of. The hammer is a good start. But you have to have a circular saw. Add a magnetic sign, boom! Contractor.
I dread every auto lay off.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Don't know about plumbers. I have seen a hack or two while others were real craftsmen. The original problem sounds like a hack job or a very tired, burnt out, plumber having a very bad day.
Most construction people know about the rule of thirds in some form. The same holes cut at the ends of a small span might, just maybe, be OK. They still sound too large for a 2by8. Especially considering the span and where they are in the span. An experienced architect or engineer could give you a definitive ruling and suggest solutions.
I'm just an electrician but I haven't butchered joists that bad. Once threatened a carpenter with running a 2" , 2-1/2"OD, conduit 12' along a 2by4 exterior wall because he didn't want to build a soffet. It was on the plans but he said the plans had been changed by the HO.
I got out my 2-5/8" hole saw and made like I was going to drill the studs. Inspector would love it with all of 7/16" of structure remaining on either side. Not wanting to have to replace the studs, or explain the back charge, he finally caved and I got an early lunch while he put in a soffet.
I've got the site, the Strongtie CD and the catalouge.
But i don't know of any part they have that would specificly satisfy the needs of this particular situation. I thought that since you were recommending it, you had a part in mind.
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Since they are designed for notched studs, they don't apply to a discussion about over-bored joists. Don't mean to pick on you personally, but I'm just trying to keep the advice in context here so nobody gets themselves hurt. i believe that the best Simpson can do here is strap ties on the bottom of the joist to take some of the tension load and that would be an unapproved, un engineered application.
here is the PDF for their recommended repairs on plumbers recklessness.
http://www.strongtie.com/ftp/fliers/F-PLUMBING03.pdf
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!