Anyone know what plumbing code Oakland CA follows?* I’m trying to sort out what needs to be done to our back bathroom to bring the venting up to code, and it appears that IRC and UPC are very different.
Thanks,
Rebeccah
*Yes, I know I can call the building permits office and ask, and if I can’t find out some other way before Monday morning I most likely will…
Replies
It was 100% UPC with local revisions when I lived there. They may still have an inspector in the department named Jeff Hutcher, who was a plumber before going to work for the city, and he knows all of the code details. Since your job will not have one particular person inspecting, I'd talk to Jeff or someone else who has plumbing background. If you think in terms of short trap arms and no wet vents you should be fine.
Thanks.I'm working with an existing bathroom that was evidently done without a permit (it's not listed in the assessor's records for my house) and incorrectly. It looks like the "vent" pipe sticking out the back wall of the house may be a complete fake (apart from its not extending through the roof), as it's not actually connected to anything inside the wall. If you stick your hand in the elbow sticking out the back wall, you can "windshield wipe" the other end of the pipe. So I've got a toilet, lavatory, and stall shower with horizontal drain lines converging on a common (horizontal) soil line that heads back towards the kitchen and the house drain, but no convincing evidence of any vent at all, although it's possible the putative vent may have been for the lav.I'm trying to avoid completely redoing everything, and need to know such things as whether or not all three fixtures can share one vent up through the roof. Since the UPC seems more restrictive in venting options, I'm guessing not.Rebeccah
Edited 2/11/2007 6:03 pm by Rebeccah
You can almost always vent a single bath with a 2" vent. If you were in snow country you might have to go thru the roof with 3" but I did many there with just 2".
You may have to open some walls to install the vent risers. If there is attic space then the vents will usually be tied together above the ceiling for one roof penetration. It may be possible to have a "courtesy inspection" by the city to get the info you need. In most bath remodels I open all of the walls and ceilings--it just makes things a lot easier and a better job is done. Your plumber and electrician will get done quicker and charge you less.
UPC restricts vent size to fixture units, not how many different fixtures.
2" vent will carry 24 fixture units.
Water closet = 3 units for a new one (1.6 gal flush) 4 units for an older one ( more than 1.6 gal flush)
Tub/shower = 2 fixture units.
Lav = 1 fixture unit.
But if this is the only vent for all the fixtures in the house, then it needs to have an equal cross sectional area to the waste pipe coming in.“Well, the election campaign in the country is picking up speed... All the candidates are talking about health care now. Don’t they realize that it’s their campaign speeches that makes us sick?” —Bob Hope
It's not the only one in the house. There's one in the kitchen (might be shared with the adjacent laundry room, I forget). And there's a separate one for the main bathroom.Rebeccah
--- UPC restricts vent size to fixture units, not how many different fixtures. ---So, I've got my Code Check book here and I'm trying to understand it...It says that under UPC, common vented fixtures must enter through a back-to-back fitting, at the same level, with a max of 2 fixtures per common vent. So I gather that a "common" vent is different from a "wet" vent, in that the fixtures both connect to the vent at the same level (whereas with a wet vent they connect at different levels)?OK, I guess that makes sense.Now, the next question is about *how* everything is tied together.The lav is in the corner, drained by 1 1/2" ABS, and presumably (the walls are not opened yet) vented out the back wall of the house with 2" ABS. Whatever connection there might have been to the vent is not intact, because the vent pipe end inside the wall can be "windshield wiped" from horizontal to about 30 degrees above horizontal from the outside hole in the wall.From the bottom of its vertical run, the lav drain runs horizontally to the left, about 4' into a horizontal run of 2" ABS drain from the stall shower.The shower is to the right of the lav, and has a 2" drain that runs horizontally to the left from the weir of the P-trap for 3 1/2' until the lav drain runs into it, then another 2-3' (I didn't measure) to a 3" drain running horizontally to the far left, to a house drain to the sewer.The toilet, on the left, has a 3" riser draining into the 3" drain line, 3' upstream of the 2" horizontal drain connection from the shower and lav.There is a cleanout at the top of the 3" drain, just to the right of the toilet.So, the horizontal run of the lav drain is serving as a horizontal wet vent for both the toilet and the shower. Which I do not think is allowed by UPC, although it is by IRC.Am I correct?How would you rearrange things with the least amount of disruption?Thanks,Rebeccah
bump.
OK one step at a time.
A "common" vent is a single vent venting multiple trap arms, usually found in back to back or side by side fixtures. The fitting that ties all this together usually looks like a cross, 2 horizontal ports & two vertical ports one at the top ( which is the vent) & one at the bottom ( which is the waste).
A "wet" vent is a vertical section of vent & waste. It's a vent comming off the lower fixture, & a waste comming off the upper fixture.
Once a vent travels atleast 6" above the fixture that it is serving you can tie what ever else fixtures that are there as long as you meet the size to fixture unit #'s.
So a 2" vent pipe can carry 24 fixture units.
Hope that clarifies it for ya on the definition of different vents.
OK pic #7 is wrong wrong wrong, connected or not it's wrong.
Sec 906.1 UPC vent termination.
"Each vent pipe or stack shall extend through its flashing and shall terminate vertically not less than 6" above the roof nor less than 1' from any vertical surface."
906.2 "Each vent shall terminate not less than 10' from or atleast 3' above any openable window, dorr, opening air intake, oe vent shafty, nor less than 3' in every direction from any lot line or alley & street expected."
So in pic #4 just above the "wye" comming from the shower it apears that there might be a vertical pipe connection there, which would be the vent for the shower & if it's within 5' that will work.
The lav comming into that wye looks fine , from what I can see.
Water closet has all kinds of problems----- that is a "san tee" on it's back that was NEVER legal.
With the UPC you cannot have the vent for the water closet come up the horizontal waste of the lav. Nor can you have the vent for the shower come up that pipe either.
I'm going back to pic # 4 which looks like a pipe connection there with a vertical pipe----- is that what I am seeing?
I can't imagine that senario of venting through the horizontal waste of the lav would be legal with the IRC either.
Dave M is pretty up on the IRC I'll ask him if that's in there.
Fix's I can see from the pics for minimal damage.
Vent on outside can be ran up the siding & double 90 around the eve with a termination 6" above gutter---- will look like crap though. Or maybe a weird downspout.
Sant tee on it's back, has to be changed to either a "combo" on it's back or a short sweep 90 or a long sweep 90.
The toilet really needs to have a vertical vent within 6'--- I hate AAV's, but it's better than no vent at all, that you will have to check with local code enforcement to see if their legal in your area, & if they will allow one to be used below the floor of a water closet.“Well, the election campaign in the country is picking up speed... All the candidates are talking about health care now. Don’t they realize that it’s their campaign speeches that makes us sick?” —Bob Hope
Hey care to check IRC on post 8 about venting a toilet through the horizontal waste of a lav?“Well, the election campaign in the country is picking up speed... All the candidates are talking about health care now. Don’t they realize that it’s their campaign speeches that makes us sick?” —Bob Hope
There's a couple of sections of the IRC '03 that appear to allow wet vents in a number of circumstances, horizontal and vertical. It refers to bathroom fixture groups. There's a table that gives pipe sizes and fixture units. I'm too tired to make sense of it now, but I have the whole thing in PDF form on my other machine, and I'll cut and paste it tomorrow.
It looks like they're trying to make it easy to pipe bathrooms. If you're not familiar with the IRC, the venting requirements are easier than the UPC.
Thanks, David. Unfortunately, according to Oakland's web site, Oakland's building code is based on the California Building Code, the plumbing portion of which is based on UPC. :(But I'm curious anyway to know what IRC has to say about my setup.Rebeccah
http://www.codecheck.com/pg13_14plumbing.html#fp8fourviolationsItem 4 is a wet vent from the lav. OK in IPC/IRC, but not in UPC..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks.
I knew it wasn't legal in UPC.
Washington uses the IRC, but not the plumbing portion of that code, only the UPC."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
OK, here are some really basic questions.1. How long can a trap arm be before the vent takes off? I understand the connection from the trap arm to the vent must be higher than the weir, and that there can be no more than one pipe diameter of drop (which basically means the same thing). If horizontal pipes are supposed to slope a minimum of 1/4" per foot, then I guess for a 2" diameter pipe, that would mean a maximum of 8'? Seems awfully long, but I don't see any references to maximum length, only minimum length to the vent (which I think was 2 pipe diameters).2. Can the drain continue horizontally after the vent comes off (i.e., T fitting with the top of the T on the bottom being the trap arm and drain, and the base of the T on top being the vent)?3. If the WC has a combo fitting connecting to a horizontal drain line below it, can the vent for the WC come off the high side of the drain, or does it have to come off the low side?4. How big are the holes allowed in 2x4 studs? What about top plates?5. Is it OK (though ugly) to run the vents on the outside of the building? This is SF Bay area and we get about 3 frost days a year.Attached are a couple of ideas about venting shower and WC. It's hard to draw in 3D when the fixtures are on two walls, so I left out the lav, which is of course higher up as well. It might be easier for it to get its own vent, I'll ask about it once I have some more of the basic concepts clear.Thanks so much for your help.Rebeccah
"1. How long can a trap arm be before the vent takes off?"Look at table P2.IRC uses the numbers and UPC the numbers in the braces, {}"4. How big are the holes allowed in 2x4 studs? What about top plates?"http://www.codecheck.com/pg03_04building.html#fb8notching.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks.I've got the Code Check Plumbing, not Code Check West, so the table number is different, but I found it - despite the typo in the figure about which table it is.And thanks for the link to the framing one.Did you take a look at the sketches?Rebeccah
On 90% of the jobs I do, each fixture has its own vent takeoff and riser. i.e. neither of my plumbers thinks in terms of wet vents at all. When you are in a crawl space and can drop the drains a foot or so below the floor it becomes very easy to use tees angled up at 45 degrees or more as your vent takeoffs. The tee is installed pointing towards a wall, and a 45 degree elbow is used to turn vertical so the vent can be run up thru the bottom plate of the wall.
If you are doing a second floor bath and have to contain everything within a 10" or 12" joist space it's a lot harder.
Since you're going to be doing DWV work, do you have a way to test the system after it's complete? My usual deal is to install a "test wye" where I am tying into the existing drain. A double test plug is used in that wye to allow you to fill everything upstream with water. Typically you need a 3" plug for the toilet, a 2" plug for the shower, and a 1-1/2 for the lav. If you think of it, use a "TKO" toilet flange--it has a plastic seal on it for testing so you don't need a plug. You can also buy glue-in plugs of various types. I bought a set of inflatable rubber balls but it's not the only way to go.
Here's the "double dynamiter" test plug... very cool item. The first thing I do is cut in the test wye and put the plug in, so I don't hafta' smell the sewer.
http://webstore.petersenresources.com/1b.aspx
What's under this bathroom is part of a partial basement (unfinished) that seems to have been made by digging out part of the crawl space and pouring concrete retaining walls around the perimeter of the dug-out portion. The head clearance is about 6' to the joists. Much of the bathroom is over the perimeter retaining walls, so effectively crawl space type room to work. Am I allowed to put a 2" hole in a bottom plate? What about a top plate? And am I talking then about 3 roof penetrations for a 5' x 6' bathroom?Thnaks for your patience.Rebeccah
With a partial basement or even a tight crawl space, you can easily give each fixture its own vent riser. Get a 3x2x3 tee for the toilet, and install it as soon as you turn horizontal under the closet flange. Use a 2" tee in the same manner just downstream of the shower trap. Those tees are installed with the vent takeoff at 45 degrees above horizontal, and then from there do not run horizontal until you are above the flood rim of the fixture. The vent piping below the floor will be steep whereas the drains will run at 1/4" per foot, a lot flatter.
You can run 2" ABS in 2x4 walls. Your best friend is a 2-9/16" self-feed bit and a hole hawg drill. Second best is a hole saw the same size and a solid 1/2" electric drill. Around here we can drill thru the bottom and top plate and just put nail plates on both sides of the hole. We can also drill horizontally thru one non-bearing stud. This can be handy if you bring two risers up into a wall and want to tie them together, for instance maybe your shower and toilet riser can be run into the same wall but for some reason you cannot get them into the same stud bay--drill one stud and run a horizontal piece to join them.
Easiest is usually to join the vents together above the ceiling. Extra points if you get far enough above the ceiling so as to allow full thickness insulation without a lot of hacking. Your whole bathroom can run out thru one 2" penetration in the roof.
Thanks, David, I'm printing this out.Only problem is there's no ceiling. This bathroom is part of a many-years-old addition that just has the underside of the roof for a ceiling. The rafters are visible. We can probably screw sheetrock to the underside of the rafters. Can we cut holes through them (actually only one, I think)? I need to measure how wide they are. I'm thinking 6" or 8", and probably full dimensioned because they look a full 2" thick. We're not in the middle third in any case, so with a hole 1/3 the width we should be OK?Thanks again,Rebeccah
Hole not greater than 1/3 the depth of the joist, not closer than 2" from either edge.
Sounds like you have a flat roof there. You may need a roofer to correctly waterproof a new vent hole if you drill one.
The roofer is already selected. He's going to be doing routine tar-and-gravel maintenance and surfacing an undershot area that the last full roofing job missed (and which is now the source of a small leak in hard rains). I asked him to wait until we get the plumbing done because there will be one more penetration to seal. :)Rebeccah
When we come across the ceiling from the walls to tie the vent risers together, is a 90 degree elbow OK?And then presumably tie the pipes together in pairs until there's one left, elbow it up, and then (maybe) connect to copper for the penetration or (more likely, since there's not much room) go through the roof with the ABS and paint it?Thanks,Rebeccah
You can use "vent 90s" for changing direction above the flood rim of your fixtures. They have no sweep and fit into tight spots. If you go to a plumbing supply you can get "cross" fittings that have top, bottom, and two side ports.
If Bill's link doesn't help ask again & I'll chime in.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
So basically, as far as cutting through framing, since these are exterior 2x4 walls, we can't do it with a 2" pipe. We'll have to make some kind of a chase. Or, can we run the pipe outside the building, though?Rebeccah
Yeah you can run DWV outside---- looks like crap though.
ABS must be coated "painted" to protect from UV.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
OK, I'm in over my head.Kalim took out some of the drywall and the lav and mirror so we can see what's really in there.1. There is window framing that blocks any passage of the lav vent through the wall to the roof. To one side of the window frame is the outside corner of the room; to the other is the shower, which we don't really want to remove unless we do a whole room remodel. So running the lav vent anywhere but outside the building requires a whole room remodel; and running it outside and venting anything else other than the lav requires at least two roof penetrations.2. The rafter in the middle of the ceiling is only 5 1/2" wide, and there's only 2" clearance from the bottom of the rafter to the top of the window finished opening. So to try to tie the shower and WC vents together will require furring down for a ceiling and notching the rafter, rather than boring through it. Again, more work than originally planned.3. Kalim has laborer friends who are always looking for work and always trying to "help". The one who was a big actual help in reroofing the garage insisted on "helping" Kalim remove drywall. Kalim wanted to do a neat job of it, but his friend just ripped stuff out, so now there is more work to clean up. It's not so much the more work, but the fact that I can't trust his friends to do things right, and I can't trust him to keep his friends off the job when we don't want them. I'm afraid if we cut into nonleaking drain lines to install vents, we'll end up with leaks that we didn't have before.This house is in a neighborhood where most of the renovations are DIY and handyman specials. I am now convinced that bringing the bathroom up to Oakland code requires completely redoing the bathroom, and that doing so will not add value to the house, as long as the existing plumbing actually works.So, since it seems that other than the san-tee and the lav vent termination, the DWV otherwise meets IRC (and is not unsafe), we are going to do the following:
1. Glue together the dry-fitted pieces that we found in the wall for the lav vent.
2. Extend the lav vent on the outside of the house, up through the roof. Paint the ABS, install a roof jack, and let the roofer finish the penetration properly.
3. Not have an Oakland inspection for the bathroom plumbing.Not my first choice, but for now, that's going to be it. I'm a bit ticked off that when I first got an estimate for plumbing work a month ago, the plumber didn't address the DWV issues other than the vent termination. I would have been better prepared emotionally for the cost, and we wouldn't have a wall open right now with a couple of wannabees trying to figure out what to do.I'll try thinking about this again in 6 months or so, maybe.Thanks for the insight, though, and if/when we *do* do the bath remodel, I'll have a better basis for discussing plans with the contractor.Rebeccah
Edited 2/17/2007 12:01 pm by Rebeccah
Honestly, in the business we deal with this sort of thing all the time. I regularly price out and contract for bath and kitchen remodels without being able to see the horrors in the wall. If your project had gone smoothly I would have been jealous and wondering what I do wrong, because we are forever dealing with unforeseens and paying the price (whether in dollars or in asking the owner to pay).
If the drains have been flowing OK, I would patch it up and do nothing, maybe add a good cleanout or two if there are easy and obvious places. From the sound of it your job should be done as a complete gut and rebuild, and even with the significant plumbing experience I have I am always happy to see a pro plumber show up to do the work.
I hope this doesn't sound cavalier. This stuff can be REALLY challenging.
Doesn't sound cavalier at all.I am not suprised by *any* of what we've found. I've called back the plumbers who replaced the water heater, capped the gas to the fireplace, replaced the gas valve to the stove, added proper support to the supply line and drain lines in the back bathroom, cleaned out the junk blocking the supply lines to the back bathroom, and were going to extend the vent through the roof. I've told them that after opening up behind the lav, I've decided to have them do the original vent work as contracted, plus three glue joints where the previous pipe had been only dry fitted (and that was the reason for the loose pipe they found in the wall). I'm not going to have it inspected. The manager has agreed to schedule this for next week, and will see if he can cancel the permit without a fine. If he can, great. If not, I'll gladly pay the $60 fine rather than the $350 for the permit.But now I see why they wanted $3600 to bring it up to code, and it no longer seems expensive related to what needs to be done.What got me into this situation was just that I got really ambitious and originally got quotes from this company and a repipe company on a whole house repipe, and for this company I also indicated a laundry list of other things that I needed to prioritize and so I needed quotes on. Concerning the back bathroom, what I told the manager/estimator was that my two concerns were establishing water flow and bringing the plumbing up to code, that I knew there was a problem with the venting, including the termination, and that different people had said different things about whether or not anything else was wrong. But this was all in the context of a bunch of other stuff, and so it didn't get the attention it merited at the front end. In contrast, he gave me a fairly detailed quote on moving the garbage disposal to the other side of the sink, an easy-to-define problem but only a nice-to-have, and which I opted out of.I didn't get any other plumbing quotes, and needed to get this all attended to before the roofer could start, and I was just fatigued and didn't want to have to think about everything as much as I usually do. I got three quotes on the roofing around the same time.So when the journeyman who was going to extend the vent found he could wiggle the pipe inside the wall, I was just not prepared for a bunch more money and time. Even if he had done this at the beginning of the job, it would have sit better with me, because I was still in decision-making mode at that point. But they did the water heater and everything else first, and saved this for last, and I was just not ready. By that point my fiance was already complaining about the expense and about how they hadn't really done that much work and why hadn't I even contacted his friend who works for plumbing companies that he told me about the week before, etc. etc. etc.So I went from defending the work of the plumbing company, to getting a quote on more extensive work, to agreeing to have Kalim's plumbing-knowledgeable friend have a look (he quoted only $100 per day x 2 days), to his other friend competing for the opportunity to help us, to considering doing it ourselves, to where we are now. It's been a roller coaster.But if it gets finished this week, that will be great. The roofer will be very gald as well, because it's been a dry winter and he's hurting for business.Rebeccah
Thanks for the clarification on the vents. So a common vent means the *whole* vent is identical for both fixtures. It was confusing because the Code Check referenced two figures for common venting under IRC -- one figure (the one on the same page) showed a wet vent. The other figure (on a previous page with drain sizes) showed a shared trap-arm.--- OK pic #7 is wrong wrong wrong, connected or not it's wrong. ---I knew about the vent needing to terminate above the roof. The first plumber was going to just extend the existing vent through the roof, until he discovered it wasn't connected inside the wall.But I've had a number of people look at this situation over a 3-year period, in varying degrees of detail, including a home inspector, a plumbing inspector (after the first DWV repairs to other parts of the house), and a few plumbers. Most of them either start out saying it's done completely wrong and then back track to maybe it's OK (except for the vent termination), or else start out saying it's OK (focusing on whether or not three fixtures can share a vent) and then back track to they're not sure if it's OK the way it's actually done.--- So in pic #4 just above the "wye" comming from the shower it apears that there might be a vertical pipe connection there ---Nope. That's a plastic hanger. The only vertical pipe visible from below any trap arm is the one from the lav.--- With the UPC you cannot have the vent for the water closet come up the horizontal waste of the lav. Nor can you have the vent for the shower come up that pipe either. ---That's what I thought. Plus, the lav drain is only 1 1/2", and I think a WC needs minimum 2" vent?--- Sant tee on it's back, has to be changed to either a "combo" on it's back or a short sweep 90 or a long sweep 90. ---Is that just because the radius is too small with what's there now?--- I hate AAV's, but it's better than no vent at all ---That's "air admittance valve", right? I don't know if they're allowed in Oakland, or not.Then, of course, there's the issue that since this bathroom was put in without permits in the first place, they'll probably charge me and inspect me as if I were doing the whole thing for the first time. Grumble grumble grumble. The plumbers who were just here added brass nipples to the the copper connections to the old galvanized supply pipes, cleaned the crud out of the pipes so we get water flow back there now (it was just a trickle), and added supports for both the supply and the drain lines, and didn't seem to think there were any other code issues.Here are a couple of shots of the bathroom. We're going to clean up the shower (only been used once by one of our workers when we moved in, but evidently never cleaned by the previous owners), replace the valve (which is missing an O-ring), and re-caulk the surround, rather than replacing the whole thing, for cost reasons.You can see that there is no ceiling (just the underside of the roof), but there's enough room to add sheetrock so that we can tie vertical drains together up there and hopefully get just one roof penetration?Rebeccah
Yes a water closet needs a 2" minimum vent.
The "san tee" on it's back is not a drainage pattern fitting. Vertically it's fine , but not horizontal.
I can't say radius is too small, cause a "closet bend" has the same radius as the san tee, but a closet bend does not have that gap in it for the third inlet like a san tee does.
AAV = air admittance valve---- yes
One roof penetration is always better than multiples, just not always feasible."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program." - Ronald Reagan
Can you (and is it advisable to) extend the ABS plastic through the roof, or is it a good idea to switch to copper or cast iron for the roof penetration?And if the latter, how do you connect the ABS to the copper or cast iron?Thanks,Rebeccah
If you extend the ABS it is supposed to be painted to protect from UV. I doubt I've ever seen anyone do it. You can extend thru with copper, and I sometimes do that depending on how visible the vent it. You need a "Mission" coupling to connect it to the ABS and a different pipe jack than the ones at the hardware store, since the copper tube is smaller OD than plastic.
You could get the couplings at Rubenstein Supply or Moran Supply. You might be able to get the roof jacks at either place, or go down to Martin-Madsen on E. 14th.--they're a great sheet metal supplier.
Thanks, David.Can you think of anything else that we might need that would not be found at HD or the hardware store? We're going to work on this this weekend, and I expect the plumbing and sheet metal supply houses will be closed.Thanks,Rebeccah
Rebeccah, if you can find a way to have everything you need on the job, you have a new career waiting in construction project management. For plumbing, I'd say you need three times as many fittings on hand as you will eventually install. My plumber on a job right now showed up to build drains for a bathroom with four 32-gallon trash cans full of ABS fittings. He probably brought 500 fittings to the job and installed 30 or 40 of them. He had some that I had never seen before. Same deal when he did the PEX work. I'd say buy everything you think you'll need and then some, and plan on running to the store at lunch.