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Folks,
My condo was plumbed under the slab with copper some 40 years ago. It’s getting tired. Some leaks, more to come.
What to do?
Jackhammer the slab to relay new lines?
Plumb new lines overhead in the attic?
ToolBear
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From the heading I thought you had scale building up (which can sometimes be fixed). Sorry to hear you've got leaks. You're pooched. Yeah, rent the jack hammer and possibly stay out of most of the walls. Or go overhead and have to open up each bay to get to the fixtures. A pain either way, but going overhead gives you a whole new piping system and easier access, repair, and expandability later. -David
*I'd sure be inclined to leave the pipes in the slab and run new pipe. Would there be a freezing hazard in your attic? What about condensation on the cold pipe?
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ToolBear,
Bad copper pipes are a real problem around my parts. The water comes from a reverse osmosis plant and it just eats the copper up. Lots of pin hole leaks.
Local plumbers have made a fortune replacing copper systems with CPVC. They go through the attic, or sometimes underground, but almost never cut the slab. (Who needs the mess?) I should add that freezing is not a concern.
Plumbers that do a lot of repipe should only create a few drywall patches, mostly behind the shower valves.
Has anyone heard of ANY problems with CPVC? Is copper realy quality? I won't put it in my houses.
Matt
*Andrew -I hope freezing is not a concern - we're in Newport Beach, CA. Although it's a mite chilly out now - something from the NorthWet just arrived.I suspect that it's overhead - but what is the technique?I could jacket the pipes. I need to get my pix from Habitat developed to see how they did it in new construction. Our last unit has rather nice copper run in the attic, plus stuff coming out of the slab for the ground floor.What I want to see is shutoff valves behind access panels all over the place. When I changed out a shower valve, the whole place was shut down. No way to isolate that shower.
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Sounds like a good use for PEX. Try to get it about an inch and a half from the ceiling drywall. Har enough that a stray nail will miss it but still with most of the insulation above it. Make sure that you get the insulation back with no voids. I have seen this work even in the north.
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Matt -
Hey, I got 40 yrs out of copper buried underground.
I'd use it again. I would not bury it.
Trouble with all the "new-fangled" stuff is that you get 3-5 years out and then come the class action suits. Whatever they tell you is Really Great and the Latest Thing this season, they will be telling you Never Mind and It Causes Cancer a few years from now.
I like to use materials that have at least 15-20 years in the field. LP siding won't get the far, just to name one.
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Toolbear,
A few years ago I cut a bunch of glued cpvc out of a home because all the joints were beginning to drip...The installers may have not cleaned it well along with proper chamfers and all...Anyway it's too easy to do a poor job. So now I'm scared of new ideas but as I look at pex it looks to me that it would be possible for me to install it and see it last as well if not better than copper where water quality is harmful to copper especially...
That's it, near the stream,
J
*Newport Beach? Rough life. I grew up in West LA and Pasadena.If copper served fine i would choose it again. I love all the newfangled things but replumbed with copper, knowing that our water was not aggressive (galvanized did fien for 60 years). In light of the PB disaster, I chose copper without hestitation.Armstrong(?) makes something called Armaflex(?) (not sure of the names) a black foam insulation sheath that is easy to apply to pipe. It has halted our condensation problems and definitely keep hot water warm much longer.Heck, skip the access panels and put the shutoffs where you can get to them in a hurry. I installed shutoffs -- full port ball valves -- here and there so that I could work on the plumbing or fix a goof (there were several at first!) without having to drain the entire house. Only replace the pipe that you have to -- the pipe in the slab may have had a much more difficult environment, alkalis and such, than the rest of the pipes. I'd cut out a section and inspect it for corrosion. Ii really like copper and think it's a pleasure to work with. If I did plumbing professionally, however, I'd definitely be in market for something faster -- PEX v. copper sounds like the difference between NM and conduit. But I did replumb the 60' of basic distribution in our house in about 5 hours -- pretty darn easy if you have access.
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Om....
Where did you put the shutoff valves and avoid access plates?
If this were the Navy, they'd be in plain sight, color coded and labeled. The ones on my boat are accessible and labeled. But when they plumb a house, you get one main and a batch of supply valves.
I'm thinking overhead might be the way. New system, full access, lots of valves to isolate sections. Wonder how ball valves would like our hard water (State Water Project/Colorado River cocktail. Tastes awful. Can't make decent tea.)
Toolbear
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Overhead in the basement utility room near the water heater; all of the supplies fork out from there. So I cut the house into sections there. It seems kind of useless when you're doing it, but it can be very convenient later, like when you're extending the plumbing and don't feel like doing it all in one day. An access plate that you take off without tools or messing up the finish is nice.
I'd think a ball valve would suffer less from hard water. If you get the thicker pipe (type L or even go nuts and get K) it will buy you extra time.
*Another approach that makes sense but I haven't heard much about is to get a whole-house sacrificial anode. I think the water heater uses one? But maybe this is too easy for plumbers with mortgages.
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I better find a good technical book on plumbing and study how best to route the supply lines. I'd like a manifold for the valves. We do those on boats when possible.
Being able to isloate segments of the system is the way to go. Why have the whole system down for something in one bathroom - and you unable to get the part for 3 days. My shower cartridge comes to mind.
ToolBear
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... of course, KISS still is the order of the day! Don't kill yourself over this!
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The criticism of the "new fangled stuff" seems rather unsupported. PEX has been used in Europe for decades, and is unrelated to other problematic plastic pipe materials.
From what I have learned, the PEX/Romex analogy is a good one.
Other than that is doesn't require many times the labor of a $60/hr plumber to install, what are the disadvantages of PEX?
(Psst. I hear that copper is poisonous, and that it is often joined by materials proven to cause health harms.)
*Toolbear, If your considering using PEX tubing, consider installing it along with a Manablock system. It's well worth the investment. Have had one for over 4 years now and it's performing as promised. Keith
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Folks,
My condo was plumbed under the slab with copper some 40 years ago. It's getting tired. Some leaks, more to come.
What to do?
Jackhammer the slab to relay new lines?
Plumb new lines overhead in the attic?
ToolBear