Hello good folks,
My next job is a basement remodel with a client whose primary concerns seem to be sound proofing and chemical sensitivity issues.
Built ins and counter tops are part of the job,but he dosent want me to use plywood.He is concerned about the glues outgassing. It seems he might be ok with exterior plywood; he claims the glues cure more
quickly. (I think)
Of course I think the concern is out of whack and I’m a little put off by this requirement.Sometimes folks get focused on one thing to the exclusion of all other issues.
Does anyone know anything about plywood glues,curing time,and how this may relate to chemical sensitivity? I might use some birch ply, luan ,and maybe even some cdx to back up some wainscott over metal studs.Any web sites to share?
What are the best value ways to soundproof? double sheetrock, homosote and rock? I cant take up too much room space. All bays will be insulated.
Thanks in advance,
mike
Replies
Google's great.
Here's what I've found searching on "plywood" and 'outgassing":
http://www.rainforestinfo.org.au/good_wood/wb_compos.htm
"Plywood and Outgassing
The EcoDesign Foundation 5 cautions that glues used in plywood manufacture can have emissions which are potential health hazards. They call this 'outgassing'. Interior-grade plywoods contain urea formaldehyde glues which outgas at room temperature, while the phenol formaldehyde glues used in exterior grade plywood do not. The Foundation says that many architects, therefore, specify exterior grades of ply for interior use."
What exterior plywoods would be acceptable for use in built ins? Im used to cab grade birch.
mike
I will offer my two cents worth. First, get away from this client as fast as you can. If you're put off already just imagine what a nightmare he'll be once you start. Will you have to prove the chemically benign properties of every piece of material you install? Second, if you keep the job, charge for the hassles you can be relatively sure you are about to encounter. I get more picky about who I work for every year. Professionals in almost every field do it. Lawyers choose not to represent, insures not to insure... my auto mechanic won't work on French cars, he has a big sign proudly announcing that. I don't work for people with legitimate chemical sensitivity issues or unrealistic phobias.
I'd ask him about MDF for the counters, and built ins.
From the same source as my first reply,
"All known types of MDF are pressure-bonded with Urea Formaldehyde resins, making them all potentially dangerous."
good to know, thanks.
And an alternative approach is to seal the wood:
http://www.buildingforhealth.com/afmsafecoat_safeseal.html
"AFM Safecoat SafeSeal: A multi-use, water based, low gloss sealer for highly porous surfaces such as particle board, plywood, processed wood, and porous concrete. Used primarily to reduce toxic outgassing: in particular, it is highly effective at sealing in formaldehyde outgassing from processed wood such as plywood, particle board, and pressed wood. Safecoat Safe Seal is virtually odorless on application and odorless once cured. For interior use."
I have no idea whether this product or others like it have any merit, but there it is.
Rebeccah
A freind of mine used straw board for kitchen cabinets in a house he's building. They're a particleboard made completely from straw- instead of glue, heat and pressure activate the lignin in the straw to bond it together. He said it worked just like normal particle board, and it was available through the local lumberyard (small town in eastern washington here).
zak
Dont think I"D be happy using that for finished carpentry. mike
That's true, you wouldn't want it exposed. If you're ok with MDF, look into this:
http://www.advancedbuildings.org/main_t_finishes_formaldehyde.htm
It doesn't show a picture, so I'm not sure if it's more like particleboard or MDF. It talks about both. Actually, as I read this more, I realize that they have this stuff at my local hardwood shop- it's just a exterior grade MDF. It's called Medex around here.
zak
The only commercial strawboard product I know of has just been discontinued, as of a couple of months ago. I was shown the ntice by a guy who used a lot of it; there is no alternative he is aware of.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
This is what I know of it.....the decay curve on sheet goods manufactured with formaldehyde glues is pretty steep, and the companies have been working hard to greatly reduce the amount of formaldehyde in most of the products (the North American ones anyway.....you're taking your chances with Asian materials). There are formaldehyde free MDF's.
The accepted industry standard for formaldehyde exposure is 0.3 ppm (I'm taking this from notes now, and don't have the citation handy).....modern sheetgoods are at half that or less after 30 days, and it may take 90 days or more (maybe a lot more) before it gets to the customer/fabricator. It may be a lot more than 90 days. Some of the info you see on sheetgoods and formaldehyde relates to products that aren't even on the market anymore.
The best way from that point to minimise exposure is to edgeband all edges.....in the case of cabinets, this is easy and wouldn't add much cost at all. All emissions are essentialy eliminated. Most of the cabinetmakers I know are already using, or easily could do if asked, an extremely low formaldehyde finish (I'm pretty sure the designation is E4, but it's late....might be E3), for spraying any cabinetry. That would further seal in any emissions.
I am not saying people should not be cautious, and I am not saying it isn't good, or good business, to build green, but keep things in perspective....a bowl of apples on your counter is also offgassing formaldehyde. My wife has some respiratory issues....from what I know, following some of the basic procedures I mentioned above, I would feel comfortable installing products manufactured with urea resin in my house.
The new generation of bioboards and UV finishes etc. amy make things even safer, and that is to the good.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
).....modern sheetgoods are at half that or less after 30 days, and it may take 90 days or more (maybe a lot more) before it gets to the customer/fabricator
ya, but - - I'm thinking the unit is tight and outgassing is not going to occur until the sheets are separated -
a bowl of apples on your counter is also offgassing formaldehyde.
got a reference? this is a new one to me - ethylene, yes - various volatiles, but never have heard of formaldehyde -
"there's enough for everyone"
Most of the offgassing is from the edges. Same applies when panels are cut up....all or almost all subsequent offgassing comes from the edges. That's why we band them if chemical senistivites are an issue.
Re: the formaldehyde from apples....reference from that was a research chemist from Becker-Acroma or Sadolin at a seminar ten years ago, can't remember which....they are both Swedish finish companies that have been leaders in low formaldehyde finishes. He had a number for the amount of gas coming off the apples, and I remember the example. It may have been BS, but he was a very credible guy, and I believed him.
edited to add: it was a very minute amount of formaldehyde.....that was the point: the modern woodfinishes that have been formulated with that in mind emit very little formaldehyde, and there is a certain amount of formaldehyde in our environment anyway. Similar situation with the new generation of low formaldehyde sheetgoods.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Edited 2/10/2006 11:15 am ET by Adrian
David (and anyone else that may still be interested).....I had a feeling I got that E4 reference to low formaldehyde finishes worng, so I was checking up on that (I was wrong, it's E1, which I should have known....I've left enough cards with that on it at customers houses.....the standard seems to be less than 1 ppm of free formaldehyde, by the way).
Anyway, one thing I found in a quick search, was another reference to formaldeyde and apples.....wasn't looking for it, but it turned up, and I have heard similar many times in my trade....so either there is some truth in it, or misinformation being widely spread through the woodfinishing industry. Here's the quote (part of a longer discussion on formaldehyde in finishes):
"From contributor B: Did you know that when you bite into an apple you release about 2ppm of formaldehyde? MagnaMax meets the European E1 standard of omission of less than 1 ppm of free formaldehyde during its cure cycle. It's HAPs free, also. "
from here: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Dangers_of_OnSite_Finishing.htmlCabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
You'll have to judge whether your client is "off" or not. Having said that, there are legitimate chemical sensitivities and if you can help someone like that it could be a fine job. I'd suggest letting the client make all the material choices. He should do research on materials based on his condition and you can help with advice on suitability for construction. I'd put most of the burden of the research on him. Make him aware that there will be some additional reasonable charge for time you have to put into this job that you would not for a standard job.
Chemical sensitivities can be very particular to the individual so what might cause a reaction in someone else may be fine for your client.
As for cabinets and countertops, does what he has in his kitchen now work?
I can only suppose that that is ok because its existing and has some age.
mike
Some people with this class of illnesses have allergic reactions to particular groups of substances. Some have psychosomatic reactions to odours and other exposure "cues" rather than a physiological response to an actual chemical exposure. Unfortunately, you don't and probably can't know which of these problems your client has, so it would be tough to make choices for them and be right the first time.
Since your client is the one with the difficult-to-define "sensitivity", do not under any circumstances put yourself in the situation of making materials selections for them. Let the client make the decisions, pay for them, and pay you to rip the wrong choices out if there's a problem. If you must make selections, get the client to sign off on them first or you will be on the hook when they cause a reaction.
If they're unwilling to make such an arrangement with you, bid the client a fond farewell and let someone else suffer though.
If the client actually has a sensitivity to formaledhyde, no composite wood material will be truly satisfactory. MDF would probably be the worst choice as it has the highest proportion of glue. Solid wood is of course the other end of the spectrum. And given formaldehyde's diffusivity, I wouldn't count on any sealant being effective regardless what the claims on the can are. I'm sure they'll be happy to give you your money back if you're not satisfied with its performance, but what good is that if you still need to rip out the cabinetry you've just sealed with it?
I can certainly make shelf units from natural wood (for more money),but the counter top would be trickier.
mike
fartherhome,
My wife has Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, and yeah, some days I wonder how much is in the mind, and other days there is no question it is real.
try an advanced search for a thread called "Chemically Sensitive Client" # 42452.1
and another called "clean air? plywood or osb" # 55055.1
I don't know how to link to them, but there is more information and discussion there.
Good luck with it,
Bowz
I don't think your client is out of whack at all. He has got his priorities straight and is worthy of the utmost respect. Instead of emphasizing luxury finishes, like granite, he wants indoor air quality.
I think this provides you an opportunity to differentiate yourself in the market. Learn about building with these green materials and then use it as a marketing point. As I potential client, I would certainly favor you over somebody who doesn't know/care about these issues.
Neff Kitchens is one of the few companies I know of that markets a green kitchen, and the material they use is marine plywood, which is claimed to be free from formaldehyde.
http://www.neffweb.com/neffdiff-prod-plywood.asp
Here is a link that has some other ideas for low-emission woods. It should be pointed out, however, that ultimately the only way you can win with an acute sufferer is to use stainless steel, and you should point that out to your client. Build everything in stainless or else accept the consequences.
http://www.repp.org/discussion/greenbuilding/200208/msg00163.html
A cheap and easy answer would be to see if you can get some IKEA products and build them in. IKEA manufactures casegoods to German emissions standards.
I suggested this as a way to save some money before I knew his concern.
I got no response.You know that to be true and that german standards are more stringent? Are there no formaldihyde glues in their products? thanks
I am not an "expert" in this field, so I advise you to do your own research. As for the presence or absence of any given chemical, this is a matter of definition in terms of PPM. Germany's "Blue Angel" standards are said to be the toughest, but you ought to draw your own conclusions based on research.I think one key factor is the certification and marking of the sheetgoods. Germany uses the Blue Angel labeling system, Japan uses JIS "Four Stars," (which is less stringent).One possible play on this, if you find Japan's PPM standards acceptable, is to purchase from companies like Huber or Simpson that have JIS certification (since they export to Japan). Of course, in the end of the day, you can knock yourself out to provide low-emissions casegoods to your client and he may turn right around and fill up the room with carpets and furniture made in China that outgasses heavily. You probably want to sharpen your pencil in writing the contract for this job.
The story about IKEA products being green is well-known and should google up real nice for you.
The straw board product mentioned earlier is called Woodstalk made by Dow. It is being discontinued but on their website http://www.dow.com/bioprod/buy.htm, they have some links to other formaldehyde free products including a veneer plywood product from Columbia Forest Products called PureBond. I checked Columbia's website too http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/products/prodpb.aspx and it said they were in the process of converting all of their hardwood plywood manufacturing over to formaldehyde free glues. Sounds like it might be what you're looking for.
I believe they're using a soy based glue....personally, I'd be very careful with that for a couple of years until they get the kinks worked out. There were a lot of problems with early versions of Woodstalk and other bioboards.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Fatherhome, you have a great client there, if you can meet his needs. He won't be shopping your prices much if you and him can find the right design and materials.
Use solid wood cabinets and stone tops.
blue
>Use solid wood cabinets and stone tops.Another option for countertops: Concrete. A lot of colors & finishes available.I believe Dulux makes a 0% VOC finish you could use for your solid wood cabinets.
My father used to deal with large office buildings, and he found that one of the easiest solutions was to "bake" the building once it was built and furnished. Carpet and furniture are the biggest offenders. Ideally, turn the heat up really high (with no people inside) and then exhaust the fumes. I don't recall any of the details though (temperature, time) and I don't have a seance scheduled.
That sounds like something to talk over with the high-temp termite exterminators. They claim to kill termites by heating the house to something in the low to mid hundreds of Fahrenheit for a half hour or more. Mebbe kill two birds -- or formaldehyde and a lotta bugs -- with one stone?
-- J.S.
We had a client whose son suffered from chemical sensitivity. They claimed that the kitchen cabinets we built five years before were causing the problem. They had an air testing company come to test their air quality. The testers could find no descernible gases. We sealed the cabinets with a sealer made for chemically sensitive people. This did not work for them. The client family moved out of the house. A year later we removed the cabinets from the kitchen. The woman could not stand inside the room to talk to me because of the overwhelming fumes. I could not smell anything.
They replaced their cabinets with stainless steel shelving and countertops. We have since done major addition work for them with complete satisfaction for both parties.
We never tell them what materials and finishes are appropriate. We simply wait for their recommendations. After all, we are builders, not chemists.
This whole issue of off-gassing is important to the companies I work with, and one commercial cabinetmaking org I belong to does a lot of education with architects, including this around issue....anyway, it gets discussed a lot.....I was part of a discussion not long ago (no architects there, this was just an informal discussion as part of a quarterley meeting), which included the two biggest plywood distributors in Atlantic Canada, and a number of cabinetmakers. One of the distributors had had quite a bit of air-quality testing done within their warehouses, and one of the big cabinetmakers had also had air testing doen in their plant while material was being worked. In both cases, air quality was fine....better than they had expected. A client would be exposed to much lower levels after the work was sealed and finished.
I'm not a chemist, and I'm not a doctor or a a chemical sensitivity expert either..... so I'm not discounting chemical sensitivities, but I sometimes wonder if, in some cases, if the best equipment can't find any troublesome emissions, if something else is going on. I'll do whatever the client asks me to do, however.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
so I'm not discounting chemical sensitivities, but I sometimes wonder if, in some cases, if the best equipment can't find any troublesome emissions, if something else is going on.
I've built furniture for 2 chemically sensitive clients. Both times a very interesting, and rewarding, experience. But after spending time in both houses I concluded that their money would be better spent on a decent air system to provide more air changes, than on higher costs associated with avoiding emissions.
Both houses had significantly worse air than I live with, neither having a fresh air system at all, other than leaks.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm not discounting chemical sensitivities, but I sometimes wonder if, in some cases, if the best equipment can't find any troublesome emissions, if something else is going on.
"Something else going on" can be a major contributing factor. As one doctor explained it, people have different tolerance levels, and each person's can be compared to a bucket. Once that bucket gets filled, it overflows. So a person can have certain allergies or sensitivities and have their "bucket" nearly full, and then have one small thing put them over the edge.
Yes, you can eliminate the small thing, but more progress can be made by taking an overall look at what the person's lifestyle is putting them in contact with.
Best guess on what set my wife's sensitivities off are mold, and food allergies, as well as working as a commercial painter for a few years.
So for the original poster I'll offer this story. I had someone call me to discuss a kitchen project. She indicated that she wanted all wood, even where I would have used sheet goods. I explained about the dimentional stability of sheet goods vs solid wood. She then lectured me about how awful sheet goods were for people's health and that "all those people are going to die from cancer".
At this point, honestly, she pulled out a cigarette, lit it and began puffing away. And lectured me again. she eliminated herself as a client because in my mind this woman was disconnected from reality. Blue can be her best friend and work for people like that all he wants, I have no desire to. Not because of the chemical issues, but because her actions (smoking a cigarette) didn't match her words.
In our own house we have particle board, and plywood. And a lot of ventilation. My wife's health has improved, but there are a lot of other factors which have helped, so saying one particular thing did it would not be possible.
Bowz
Bowz, don't try to toss that wacko on me. I'd have passed too if she was preaching airquality and smoking a cigarette! I made my comments on the assumption that they were legitimate clients seeking a special product.
blue
Green building is a special niche for special contractors. I don't have the expertise or the patience. I can imagine if I ever did cross that bridge I would charge an arm and a leg as the specifications and requirements for the builder are far more strict than otherwise. That particular client base should be able to hire a qualified contractor to address their specific needs, but that qualified contractor should be able to charge a premium for their services. I would run like the wind.
A recent issue of JLC or FHB had a test of OSB that used a soy based adhesive. Was a wonderglue - no delamination or expansion even after boiling the piece of OSB in water for an hour. I think they said it was chemicly benign too.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I don't think this is a bogus issue at all (for your clients), but it is tricky.
I had to check into this 5-6 years ago, and most of my information came from these people, an industry association for the makers of particle board, MDF, and hardboard:
http://www.pbmdf.com/AboutCPA/index.asp
Here's the skinny: yes, they off-gas, but the off-gassing is steep -- 30 days after production, it is negligible. BUT, even with these minute amounts, there are some people who are still sensitive.
There are products that are formaldehyde free -- medex or medite -- but I can't remember the exact names.
For plywood, I would check with Columbia Forest Products or Roseburg.
http://www.rfpco.com/
http://www.columbiaforestproducts.com/
Rather than spend hours poring over web sites, I would just make a phone call. All of these outfits are very tuned into the problem, and I found everybody I spoke to uncommonly helpful.
Here is another site devoted to "green" building products:
http://www.buildinggreen.com/
Once you have chosen the products you will use for the basement remodel, I would suggest you gather the supporting information on the major components and share it with your clients. This is treacherous territory, and I think it is important that you get them to sign off on all the products you will use for the job -- to head off potential problems down the road.
Yeah, this is a pain in the neck and time consuming for you (the research), but I think most people are aware that building "green" is more expensive than simply pulling off the more common materials from the shelf at the building center.
Besides, once you are up to speed on all this green stuff, it may become a lucrative niche for you. These people usually have a big mouth, and will be anxious to pass your name along to others with the same sensitivity problems.
BTW, as others have said, carpets, curtains, furniture fabrics, etc. can be a much bigger problem than building products.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ive used a product called wheatsheet for a couple years now, Its just like mdf except to offgasing. I have also used Medite Two which also does not off gas. A couple of my cabinet guys are now using this stuff and claim to love it. Good Luck.