Pneumatic Nailer History Lesson, please?
I’ve been following Mike Guertin’s thread on framing nailers and also a discusion Blue was having about hand nailing and got to thinking….. uh oh.
So I’m 31 years old….. pneumatic framing nailers have been on every site I’ve ever framed on. I’m just a pup, you see. The first crew I was on only had 2 guns for 6 carps, so a good deal of hand nailing went on…. I’m glad for that because I actually had to learn to use a hammer but still got some time in with the gun occasionally. I do know fairly decent framers now a days that can’t drive a 16 without having to straighten it out at least once, never mind two-lick it. Kinda sad.
Any who…. you more ornery old types…. do you remember when you first heard of framing nailers? What was everyone’s first thoughts? Was everyone psyched? Or did everyone figure it would never catch on, or cost too much, or be too dangerous…. You get the idea. Was the reaction positive or negative?
When did they really start to become common place on sites around you? What did you pay for your first framing gun? What was available for compressors? Who’s gun was the most popular and what was available for choices? Who had the first production framing nailer? Did you just use them for certain tasks and not others?
We use them for just about everything. I still use a lot of hand nails as I hop around the site a lot helping out my guys and doing odd ball things and don’t always want to drag a hose across the site for a 5 minute task. Besides…. I like driving a hand nail…. there’s something very satisfying about it.
So it’s Sunday night. I’m a little bored and thought I’d ask for your thoughts on the subject. My wife is watching pre-Oscar shows so it looks like I’m on my own this evening! Entertain me, would ya? At least humor me!
Replies
Actually Diesel, this topic is very important. The use of air nailers has altered the natural developmental stage that apprentice carpenters used to go through. It altered my view and usage of apprentices. It has had a profound impact on my business, yesterday, and today.
My first gun was a bostich stapler. I did a re roof job with it. Along with that came my first compressor, a Thomas T 150. That was a great compressor and I later used it for some big frames.
My first nail gun was a Senco framer SNII. I picked it up when I had to do some LP lap siding and the superintendent wanted every nail set. We were bending the 8box galvanized, and I got the gun knowing it would set the nails instantly.
I hated air and left those air tools sit at home for years.
One spring, I had a couple guys over to do some basement framing, to keep them busy for a week. In my basement, I needed to do some 2 x 2 framework around the ductwork. The rookie was going to nail in the cross members of the ceiling and I remember gleefully thinking how he was going to mess this job up. My only experience in framing anything like that in the air was a disaster, unless I used a partner to hold up a sledge hammer against the framework to absorb the blows and prevent the flimsy rack from shattering when I sunk the spikes.
To my surprise, the rookie held the 2 x2 cross member and casually shot it with the Senco. I was flabbergasted at how easy that process was and I instantly realized that I had experienced a paradigm shift.
I've never looked back...that happened about 1989. Before that, I was deadset against nailguns for the same reasons Moondance mentioned...loose framing. I now know that loose framing is a result of poor technique, not nailguns.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
One local carpenter, a union guy, is said to make his help start each day by driving ten 16 penny nails into scrap SYP. Another carpenter who worked for him said it was a comedy act the first day but within the month they were pretty good.Everyone had to drive the nails. Head guy on down to the rawest helper. He claimed that this made for better carpenters. Could be.Boss also pushed hand saws for small jobs. Claimed that you could have the job done by the time the others were unwinding their cords. More less, IMHO and as an electrician, another lost skill.
I started on a framing crew in 1986. We had two sen guns but the boss wouldnt let us use them. He thought it was "just wrong" to frame with a gun. We used the guns for sheathing but set the gun to leave the nails proud and finished by hand. He was a bit finicky. Had a power failure one morning and most of the guys started rolling up the job. The oldtimer on the crew pulled out his handsaw and kept going so I stayed to help him. "Cordless Saw" he called it.
When it comes to trim I always notice a tangible difference between trim thats been carefully hand nailed and trim thats been gunned. It depends on who's nailing I know but it goes back to basic skills taking a back seat to geter done. I hate to see trimwork with random gun nails all over. I see it a lot!
Tom
In the introduction to "The Very Efficient Carpenter", Larry Haun reminisces about helping an old carp frame a house in western Nebraska. He was 16, the year was 1947, and it took the two of them a year to completion, with Larry helping part-time.
After high school, Larry moved to Albuquerque where they used hammers and handsaws. It was in New Mexico that he noted the first signs that the age of specialization was approaching.
In 1950 he moved to LA where hand tools were being replaced by power tools, the big framing hammer replaced the 16-oz. curved-claw, and each framing task had it's own specialists. He doesn't say anything about air-nailers.
Larry's career started at the dawn of powered, specialized, production carpentry. He tells a good story, punctuated by remarks such as "At least carpenters could afford to buy the houses they built--the American dream fulfilled. The demand, understandably enough, was enormous, and one of the great experiments in American ingenuity was evolving to meet it. Carpenter wages then were under $2 an hour...". His two brothers joined him "and soon the three of us were framing one of these houses (1100 sq.ft. 3-BR) every day...". He puts forth his contention that speed and efficiency need not sacrifice quality.
To bring this back to topic, I believe nail guns were introduced to the trade in the '50s. Probably something developped during WW2, to speed up the production of war goods, barracks, etc.
How's that for entertainment?
Actually Pierre1, now that you remind me, my boss SOMETIMES would show up with an old framing gun that used coils. He would let us nail the deck off with it. It shot full headed 8d brite screw nails. I remember hand pounding 8d "pallet" nails, with the blunt tip, very well. There wasn't any way you could get them down in two licks and it was a chore to keep up the rythem of setting them flush in three. When we were driving them into SYP joist, you could add another lick....and when it was frozen, maybe another!
In those days, I remember how thrilled I was to see the compressor and nailgun show up.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
What year was that, if you don't mind saying?
Mostly nailed by hand until I went off on my own in '97. First thing I did was fork over for used air, 3 used guns, 2 new hoses. Glad I did so.
First time I remember seeing them was '74. Outfit I worked for had their own panel plant, and I got the mini-tour one day.
About a couple years after that I saw guys trimming houses with them.6 16 17 97 99
Thanks to everyone for their replies... this stuff really interests me. Was wondering if anyone recalls roughly what they paid for their first nailers and compressors.
Also wondering if anyone can recall what the difference in time was for framing houses. I'd be horriffied to figure out how long it would take me and my crew to frame a typical 2500 - 3000 sq footer without them. Curious what the time difference really is. The figure I hear thrown around mostly is half the time. But I'm guessing that's just a WAG.
I've got friends in WVA that still frame and shingle by hand.6 16 17 97 99
It's hard to remember the cost of the nailers. I'm thinking that I payed a acouple hundred for that cheap Bostich stapler and at least 300 but maybe as much as 400 or 500 for that Senco SNII nailerin the late 80's. I vaguely remember thinking that I'm glad the guns had dropped below $300....sometime in the 90's.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Diesel, I would peg the time difference at closer to 25% rather than 50%. I'm just giving it a WAG too.
But, I mentioned earlier, that the guns have had a profound impact on my business. Here's why.
I used to do a really great job framing large customs. Back then, a big one was 5000sf, but most of my stuff was in the 3500 sf range. Almost all the framers frowned on using air, except a lot of them stapled the roof...everything else was hand pounded by real "men". Since I started to use guns for everything, I gained a significant time advantage and was able to deliver a much better product at competitive rates and still make a very decent living. I remember telling my wife that I'd only need to frame two or three houses per year once the kids graduated.
Well, the nail gun sellers started aggressively marketing the guns to the framers and since most framers are bad businessmen, instead of pocketing the extra profits, they dropped their prices. Another round of price drops occurred when the machines became standard equipment.
Now, in the year 2005, we've suffered another round of price drops because of illegals.
Lastly, the slower route that apprentices used to take, to attain "journeyman" status has been all but eliminated. Instead of starting out humping lumber, learning to use the hammer, building up their bodies and cardiovascular systems with five straight hours of hammering, building up their biological rythems with rythmic nailing, the rookies now march from no-nothing rookies to assemblers in one year. Of course, since they think they are doing a lot, they demand more, or move on. So, instead of creating a 4 year apprenticeship, which the contractor can afford to train, then profit on the kids, the contractor is forced to pay more for less than satisfactory trainees. Essentially, the kids get guns put in their hands and they think they are superman. They never quite understand that the speed of the frame is accomplished in framing techinque, orgainization and attention to detail.
So, the contractors took another hit in the labor end.
Have guns been good for the trade?
I really don't think so. I liked them when I had the competitve advantage, but in the long run, they changed the pace, and therefore the trade. I suppose the evolution must march on, but in my lifetime, I think they overall have diminshed the culture and therefore the trademan himself.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Interesting take on it Blue. I'll have to mull that over.....although I wasn't "there" to see it all take place so I'm not sure what I'll come up with.
I remember reading a book on framing years ago. I forget what book and who wrote it, but the author described pulling up to the site in his truck. In the bed of his truck he had his nail bags and skil wormdrive with a 50' cord on it. That's it. All he needed was in his bag or carried with one hand.
Now you or I could still build a house like that. But we'd go broke fast. I look in my truck and trailer sometimes and shake my head. The amount of crap I have to drag around amazes me. From lasers to plate levels, to a SCMS, to tablesaws, concrete tools, hardware, 20 different types of fasteners, epoxy guns, roofing nailers, siding nailers, finish nailers, staplers, framing guns.... the list goes on and on. Now I know we're not in quite the same boat cuz you manage to do the same work as I do with a Makita sidewinder and a 4' level..... but you get the picture. I feel that alot of these tools let me do a better and faster job on the complicated homes that have now become the norm.
Sometimes I wish it were simpler. I love tools. But the idea of getting out of the truck in the morning with my bags and a saw and getting down to business sounds pretty appealing.
Thanks for sharing Blue. While I don't always agree with or understand some of your techniques, I always get a lot out of your posts. If those of you who are so battle tested didn't share so freely around here, I don't think I'd be in as good a position as I feel I'm currently in.
Now you or I could still build a house like that. But we'd go broke fast.
Not really. If you really had to frame every house by hand, you'd quickly understand that you have to adapt your methods, and payroll to fit the reality. The one thing that would change is the time frame. I mentioned earlier that I believe that guns save 25%. Well, if a house takes 4 weeks hand pounding, then it takes 3 weeks by gun, if you use the same amount of guys.
So, what were some other factors that steered me into total gun usage? Lazy labor.
Remember when I told you about how the crews were formed...the new guy humping and was happy when he would get to nail? Well, the markets started expanding, and pretty soon there weren't enough dedicated laborers available to keep the crews stable. So, instead of hardworking apprentices, we started trying to work with marginally interested laborers who would drown their sorrows in liquer and drugs when they got home and miss the next day. Well, missing the next day was something that was unheard of when I apprenticed. It just didn't happen. In fact, I worked with an old Vietnam vet that told me that when he apprenticed, he wasn't even allowed speak unless spoken to, and he was told that if he ever thought he could come in one minute late, he might as well not come in, becuase he was fired immediately.
Well, the influx of these less than desireable rookies caused a wrinkle in the framing sequence. The learning cycle became bastardized. The balance of skill and dollars went awry. Instead of me working steadily by laying out, cutting and tacking while the apprentice partner hustled lumber, did the routine nailing and assisted me, I found myself nailing off sheathing more and more.
Now, understand that I don't mind nailing off materials for a couple hours per day, but it doesn't take a genius to understand that if the rookies aren't going to be there, and learn the systems, techniques and rythem needed, that I might as well dump him altogether and use nail guns.
Thats what I did.
This created another series of events that changed the way framers worked...again in a negative way.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Your historical perspective is valuable in understanding how we got to this point.
VIVA SANCHO RON!
Thanks for the recognitioin IC.
My experiences obviously are only a reflection of my career here in Michigan, but I'm quite sure they are typical, even if the other oldtimers don't know what/how/why it happened to them.
Continuing with the saga (I didn't want to create one of those run on and on and posts that result in the dreaded truncated message):
After I recognized that I didn't need irresponsible apprentices coming and going as they pleased, I switched my system to air and basically eliminated them. So, instead of working the jobs with a blend of apprentices, first or second year guys, some journeymen, etc. it became obvious that I only wanted experienced guys. And...the more experience the better because the less you need. For instance, I framed many house over a course of several years with just Forest, an oldtimer that thought like me. We routinely stood up the same product, in the same timeframe as the other crews did. They used their five guys, we had out two.
We were profitable, but the systems that we established further reduced the number of guys we needed. But..now we were faced with the dilema of not having enough manpower. In the olden days, if you have 6 guys available, most walls on a house could be instantly raised. With only two guys, the entire process changes. So, now we need more equipment.
More equipment leads us down the path further of not needing rookies.
We're now at a crossroads again. The guys that actually possess the original skills are guys like Forest and I. We know what the old systems were and how to orchestrate it all. The new guys in the business are dependent on air nailers, equipment and now they still need to have four or five guys with them to get a job done in a decent time frame.
Forest and I can't afford to take the time to teach newbies, because they want to charge so much, because they "know it all" already, yet we don't want to be trapped into being on the jobsite from 7 am till 4/30pm. We're damned if we do and damned if we dont.
I spoke to Forest last week. He's agreed to do something with Frank and I and basically stated that at this point he's job to job. That means that every job might very well be his last one. I'm at that exact same point. Why? Because I've given up training my replacements.....ten or fifteen years ago!
Now, I'm reaping the fruits of my training efforts...which is none.
So, to sum up this thread from my point of view: hand pounding was the introductory skill that all humpers strived for. It became a bond between the carpenters and their trainees. The skills that we shared created a brotherhood that outsiders couldn't see, feel or understand. I remember feeling very proud of the crew that I started on and felt a connection that could be judged similar to a sports team. I always felt that I would stand and fight to the end with my crew, and they would do so for me. When I built my first house, they were there and we had it framed on the weekend.
Nowadays, we create these same bonds with air guns and skytraks.....somethings missing from the equation.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Seems that 'improvement' has come full circle.
Very interesting perspective.
I can see it applying to a lot of situations.
VIVA SANCHO RON!
I think you're absolutely right. Most of my friends that I went to school with are obsessed with making the fast buck, and have no patience for learning the history of their field, nor are the willing to pay their dues. To me, and we've had this talk before, you have to be willing to pay your dues, learn the business from the ground up in order to adapt and overcome small problems like tool failure etc. If you only know how to do it the one way, then there is no background to fall back on when you need to trouble shoot a problem. Its really sad to see the death of some of these trades and to see the crap that is replacing them. No pride.Jeremy
The first time I saw a framing gun was around 1974. Like someone else posted, the Senco guy gave my boss two guns for free, but he bought a bunch of nails. Before that, we nailed everything by hand. Sliding down the roof on your butt nailing off roof decking. Nailing off the entire floor by hand, then doing it again on the particle board. Fella learned how to drive a nail in those days.I believe it was Paslode that invented the nail gun, could be wrong. I also met an old fella one time who told me that the very first power saws were Skil worm drives, which looked very much like the ones we use today. Don't know how true that is, either. My experience has been so varied, lots of framing, millwright work, interior trim, remodeling, concrete forms, so I didn't really see the progression blue has been talking about. I still prefer to frame by hand, using the gun for sheathing, and I use guns exclusively when running trim. I've had a boss recommend to me recently to use the gun more. Something about "you old farts and your hammers." I served a union apprenticeship, and the men I worked with called all of us "apprentice boy." We rolled the tools out, and we got them up. We did what we were told, and I can remember when I thought I was far enough along to trade in my cloth nail apron for a real set of nail bags. I'd been on the job about a year, I think. You don't need bags for humping lumber.Allen in Santa Cruz
Edited 3/2/2005 1:41 am ET by moondance
Moondance,Yes, the first circ saw (handheld) was the wormdrive by the company later known as Skil. That was 1924, and it is amazing how close the modern tool is to the original one. The designer(s) got it right the first time, on the production versions. The sidewinder came along in 1928, by Porter-Cable, as a way of getting around the patent on the worm drive design. First sidewinders were direct drive, 8000 RPM. Not much torque, though!I think you are correct about Paslode, too, being the first with nailguns to market.Bill
About twenty years ago, when I was about 20, an old guy (old enough to have places on maps named for him) told me that good framers used to feel the nail tips and line the two cutting edges on the nail up to cut across the woodgrain so they would drive faster and cause less splitting (cutting the fibers instead of wedging them apart. Hand-drive nails are still made for this technique, but few people that still frame with a hammer even know about this.
bass.. don't you dap your nail if it's near the end of a board or you think it might split ?
also... "cut " nails were great for that reason tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike When you say "dap," do you mean blunting the tip, like no-split nails for cedar siding?
Edited 3/6/2005 7:59 pm ET by basswood
yeah, right , you know .."dap"..
blunt the tip..
i figger even the newbies still do that , don't they ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yup!
I guess I'm a newbie. But, I hardly ever drive nails by hand (I don't even keep them on hand). I lug along the compressor and nail guns for most jobs (run cordless nailers for small jobs).I did hand nail the cedar siding on my house, but the no-split nails come "pre-dapped."On other rare hand driving occasions, I do line the two sharp edges of the nail tip up across the grain, if I am worried about splitting. I really does work, no dapping required.
I don't hand drive often either but I still use the "dap" advice.When I'm using a finish gun I pay attention to the orientation of the chisel point of the nails. Keep the long edge perpendicular to the edge of concern.Or I just use my 23 ga. pinner and don't worry about splitting.
Jon Blakemore
we keep our HDG hand nails in ammo cases.. they hold about 20 lb...
even with our guns , we still use a full ammo case each of 6d, 8d & 16d hand nails on every job...
i'd guess that 1/3 of my tool belt weight is hand nails..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/6/2005 9:21 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike,I think I end up using screws in the occasional situations where nail guns aren't suited to the task. That and I sometimes end up using both the pneumatic guns and cordless nailers in tandem. I haven't really missed the hand drive nails (though I still use them on joist hangers and such).Do you think your use of the hand drive nails, in certain situations, helps productivity? In your opinion, what tasks are still best accomplished w/ hammer and nails?
tacking sheathing, toe-nailing joists to the plate, lots of layout work, driving nails you intend to pullMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the feedback, I really am interested. I do use the really sharp drywall nails for layout work (nice for chalk line holding). I don't do much framing though (only framed two walls last month). 90% trimwork, I'd guess. Someday I'd like to build my own houses so I'm trying to collect tips and gain more experience (I'd probably hire a framing crew though and just help).
I keep a nail in my pouch for all that stuff too Mike! When I use a nail for chalking a line, I pull it and put it back, cause if I don't, I won't have any more nails!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,I know you try to be efficient and conserve materials,but you're telling me you can frame a house with ONE hand nail! <g
Jon Blakemore
Great thread...
I'm letting my million dollar idea out of the bag here....
remember ya heard it here first...
...hover(sp?) tool box...just floats behind you...follows you from the truck-
right up to that attic job...
I swear i have one arm 4" longer than the other from haulin' tools around...
have to start using the other side to even things out...
Jon, I'm fibbing a little bit. When I go get nails, I put three or four spikes in my pouch. I never actually have any when I need one because they always fall out when I take off my pouch. Then, I have to peel one off of my clips. So, 90% of the time, I don't have any nails in my pouch and I'm actually going to get rid of my last bag and just wear a very small pouch, about the size big enough for a chalkline.
I hate pouches.
I don't drive many nails anymore and when I do, they are usually handed to me by someone else! I don't use small nails for anything either. The only smaller nails would be galvanized nails that I leave sticking out on corner boards. I ALWAYS have to make a special trip to the jobox to get a handful for them.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
My old boss use to put a special mix on a new carton of nailes . Dump the nails in a metal bucket,heat it up over a small fire, add alittle kerosene ,some chunks of parifin ,and ahandful of rosine. take the bucket off the fire and kind of mix it up by rolling it on edge. "WAXED AND GASED'' Not that messy once cooled .One hit and they were set.
DPR
your old boss was smokin something while he waited for the wax to meltMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dp, what size nails were you guys using? It sounds like he was too cheap to buy 16d cement coated sinkers. He was saving a buck per box and buying 16 brite commons.
blue Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You got it ! Not cheap but very frugal with his money. Czech or Hungarian Ithink . And don't even think about not picking up that nail if you dropped it .
DPR
I just bought my first 23 gauge gun two months ago, nice.You are right, there are times when gun/nail orientation is still good to pay attention to with the 16 & 18 guages.Have you tried using the cutting edge orientation advice on hand drives instead of dapping? I don't know if it works as well, but it does work to some
extent.
<<<About twenty years ago, when I was about 20, an old guy (old enough to have places on maps named for him) told me that good framers used to feel the nail tips and line the two cutting edges on the nail up to cut across the woodgrain so they would drive faster and cause less splitting (cutting the fibers instead of wedging them apart. Hand-drive nails are still made for this technique, but few people that still frame with a hammer even know about this.>>>I do that sometimes, basswood, and sometimes I "dap." But most of the time I pre-drill and hand drive if I don't want it to split. Even if I have to put down the nail gun to do it. No, I'm not a "production" carpenter. Today I was doing some pick-up framing. I paid attention to when I reached for a gun, and when I drove nails by hand. I used a Hitachi teco gun to put in a couple of joist hangers. I had some shear to put up, so I used the gun for that. I also used the gun for nailing and 2 x 4s that I could get to easily with the gun. All the little blocks, and even one stud, I toe-nailed with 8s, by hand. Trying to toenail into a 6-inch block with a gun, without it moving, causes me to start cussing. I toenail with 8s a lot when I'm working with small blocks of wood. I also drive some 16s sometimes if I don't feel like reaching for the gun.I wear my bags behind me, and the bags on the left have 16D GVSs, 8D GVSs, and either tecos or 16D HDGs, whatever I'm using the most of at the time. I used the galvies anytime I'm nailing into PT. Tape measure right in the middle of the back (lots of California guys have their hammer there) , bags with a few small tools, and my hammer in a metal ring holster on my right side. My hand goes so naturally to those nails on my left, not so much to the nail gun.
Allen in Santa Cruz
The old guy (born @ the turn of the century) had roamed all over the west, one place named for him was Sandoz Gap, Oregon (on some USGS map).He was one of those people who knew all kinds of things and had a way of relating things to people when it was useful. There aren't many people in their 80's who are embraced as relevant by young people--that man was unique.Your hand framing will continue to serve you well in the old house renovation venture. I think my generation is so used to the nail guns we use them even when a hammer and nails would be as easy or easier. Of course, I also know carpenters that don't have hand saws on the job either (they overcut stair stringers--no hand saw to finish the cuts). As I mentioned, I don't frame much, but I did frame a soffit today (around ductwork and pipes in basement room).
Managed to get it done with the Bostich framing gun (big soffit 5' x 18'). Don't know if the gun saved time, probably a coin toss.
> (they overcut stair stringers--no hand saw to finish the cuts).
So why not a recip saw?
-- J.S.
Lazy I guess.They did have one of those, now that you mention it.I prefer the hand saw to finish stringer cuts though.
"So why not a recip saw?"
Too much trouble I guess.
I keep two handsaws in my work van:
A 15" blunt-nosed Shark type by Stanley that fits in the main toolbox gets a lot of use, esp. for cutting ABS pipe and finishing circ saw cuts where it matters.
The long Disston crosscut does not see much action, but it never needs an extension cord or batteries and is very sharp.
Interesting comments on the changed carp culture...the nature of labour, and the slimming down of framing margins.
Along the same lines as this thread....
What do you all think the next biggest breakthrough will be in tools? Is there one left? Gotta be, right? I can forsee a great dea of improvements on existing tools, like the high pressure nailers, more use of lasers, etc. But I wonder what the next big breakthrough will be?
Is there a way that we could concievably cut the time needed to frame a house down again by, say, half. Even a quarter?
My first exposure to an air nailer was in 1968 in an industrial setting. Actually, the senior guys in the union were the ones that got first dibs. Don't remember the brand.
I worked in the box shop where we had thousands of board feet of the nicest ponderosa pine to cut up and make into containers for the products of Anaconda American Brass in Ansonia, CT.
We had mechanical contraptions that you would slide the cut to length and width boards into, step on a pedal and the machine would cycle and drive a couple of dozen nails at one time. Then we hand nailed the ends on and stacked the boxes for use.
Most of the time, building pallets, we would bang away with our little Estwings. Still have that hammer - somewhere. Those of us using hammers would have miserable production rates. The guys who got to use the air nailers (worked kinda slow) could have done better. That's union work at it's best.
The next big breakthrough would have to be straight materials that don't have to be pushed, pulled, and prodded plumb or into line. Think of the time saved by not having to tweak twisted, bowed, crowned or cupped lumber. But trees don't grow that way. Maybe the steel stud will replace lumber in the next 10-15 years.
It'll come one day, but don't wish for it too hard. Larger dimensional lumber is already being replaced by laminated sections that can be made from smaller pieces of wood- tougher and tougher to find trees big enough to make large dimensional lumber of suitable quality. Eventually you'll get straighter (FJ or laminated) material, but it'll cost ya!
brian..
our first framer we bought in'75 when i went in business for myself. think it was a Hausfeld
our compressor ( still got it... under the garage workbench.. now it 's a shop compressor ) was a twin-tank Rol-Air..electric.. never owned a gas compressor
we used Bostich roof staplers for a while.. but i didn't like staples for roofing.. abandoned them for about 15 years.. unitl we went to coil roofers
we had sidewall staplers.. used a 1/2 x 2 1/2 or 2.. used those for awhile .. but hated those too.. too hard to take things apart ( remodeling our remodels )
Most of the guys around here were senco guys... they got sold off trucks..
some were paslode..
rest were bostich.. until about the '90's when hitachi made some big inroads.. ( great roofing coil gun )..
i've mostly stuck with bostich.. in the spring , they'll have bostich day at the lumber yard.. new guns for old, free tool repair, demos...
bostich day ... and the golf course open.. what's better?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
stop it with this golf talk- yer killin' me
another 6-10" expected later today
I'm hoping to play in AC in 3 weeks; got a buch of guys going for a 3 day trip
if the snow melts
Next breakthrough? Batteries.I would imagine that sooner or later we will have affordable battery technology that has comparable power and decent run time to corder tools.The nail gun will be the first to go (or have gone with the popularity of the Impulse guns). Then the sawzall and skil saw. Finally stationary power tools will be cordless.Then again something completely different could be on the horizon and render the skil saw uneccessary, so I don't really know.
Jon Blakemore
Ever since the early '60s and Townsend's maser I've wanted a high power beam wand I could just wave and cut brush or 2x12s or bad guys as needed.
We need a good narrow kerf light saber!!!!
I'll take a stab at your question, and go outon a limb and say the next big improvement in tools will be when they figure out how to use superconduction in the electric motors of hand tools. That should allow for electric tools that weigh far less but are just or even more powerful. Should be interesting to see if it happens.
Pierre, I apprenticed starting in 73, so the boss was occasionally bringing the nail gun around about 75 or so.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The senco traveling salesman stopped by the house we were on and gave us a framing gun to use. We buy the nails. First time I had used a nail gun, maybe '77. We loved it for sheething, a little leary on the skeleton, but after that house we pretty much changed our tune. Our next house was in another county, the salesman never came back. The next time we found a senco seller, they told us to consider it a promo, we continued to buy the nails. Got nicked a couple times framing walls, never shot our boot to the deck sheathing. Could hit the burn barrell at maybe a hundred feet.
Don't ask me when I came out of the dark ages and got an air finish gun. Now, that was a major breakthrough!Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
who ya calling ornery and old..
oh wait, I am ornery and old.
anyway,we got our first guns just about 20 years ago. We were doing this office building for the local lumber yard, and had a lot of sheathing and decking we weren't looking forward to hand nailing.
So my dad bought 2 Senco framing guns and an Emglo electric wheelbarrow compressor. We thought we were in heaven. We probably used twice as many nails as necessary on that first job trying out those guns.
BTW, those first Sencos were a gold color- they changed to gray at some point. Those first guns were also much heavier than guns now.
Come to think of it, I was just about your age when I started using nail guns.
Never heard of 'em when a kid.
Did first roof in '60, don't think the old pro's then had them, at least I never saw any used.
Framed first full house by myself in '71 and had seen nail guns but the nails were too pricey for me then, plus it was a lot easier to swing a hammer back then for some reason <G>. Have not done any framing for pay for decades, so usually just use a hammer on the small volunteer jobs for the fun of it.
Like others have said, the finish nailers were the real eye openers (esp oak trim) and time savers for not having to pre-drill and countersink trim.
Went and did a quick web search to see how behind the times I was in the 60's, apparently first framing nailer was in '59 (per Paslode web site), coil nailer in '65 (per Stanley web site) but who knows how much of that is just marketing BS. My guess would be that maybe the original basic patent may have been near 1942 or so as result of war efforts.
Anybody ambitious enough to do a good patent search I'd like to see the results here - who knows, there was probably an 1880s steam driven railroad spike nailer??
"who knows, there was probably an 1880s steam driven railroad spike nailer??"
Probably. When I was 17 I spent a summer on the handle end of a hand spiker. You should see the motorized units now used to maintain track.
I was amazed a few years ago to find out the router was likely the first electrically powered woodworking tool. First or second decade of the 20th Century. I think that was on the Porter-Cable website.
Actually Pierre I think the first electric tool ever made was a drill manufactured by Fien in the late 1890's. It was a monster that required both hands. Black and Decker then popularized them in 1914 when they invented the 'pistol grip' desighn. Within three years of the introduction of those drills Black and Decker was doing a million dollars a year in sales.
Any who.... you more ornery old types.... do you remember when you first heard of framing nailers?
earliest 70's or so... Massive mothers those guns were..
What was everyone's first thoughts?
whatcha got there... can I drive??? and never looked back...
Was everyone psyched? Or did everyone figure it would never catch on, or cost too much, or be too dangerous.... You get the idea. Was the reaction positive or negative?
had to have been positive .. Large commercial projets all seem to have them..
A lot of us were getting framers and Senco ruled..My first gun was a SNII and then latter a SNIV.. (change the mag to 20d carridge).. ironry is I still have both and using them still...
When did they really start to become common place on sites around you?
early 80's... still Senco ruled..
What did you pay for your first framing gun?
had to be 5 or 600$$ easy.. might have been more.. (CRS)
What was available for compressors?
most of us had Sullaire or Ingersoll Rand 2 stage 30 or 40 gal 240VAC... still using them too.... others had similar Daytons.. rubber hose.. fiber wrapped.. latter it was reinforced rubber..
Who's gun was the most popular and what was available for choices? Who had the first production framing nailer? Did you just use them for certain tasks and not others?
Senco and Paslode and latter Bostich... The Senco's were real work horses and Senco went overboard to take of Senco owners.. Paslode hadn't come of age yet..
seems as though siding was hand nailed until the mid or very late 70's.. other wise framing, sheathing, decking, roofing (Bostich showed up around here with their coil roofing nailer - now we're cooking on both burners)
end of the 70's and begin the 80's..
Senco again... SNF4... still at today.. trim was never the same...
We use them for just about everything. I still use a lot of hand nails as I hop around the site a lot helping out my guys and doing odd ball things and don't always want to drag a hose across the site for a 5 minute task. Besides.... I like driving a hand nail.... there's something very satisfying about it.
no more hand nailing... don't drive 2 nails a month... of any sort... arm won't allow it and gun nails are my salvation...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The first nail gun I used was a DuoFast in 1971. My father bought it for the owner-builder house we were building. I'd guess it was about twice as heavy as the Hitachi I have now. I looked around for it when I needed a gun again, probably a good thing I didn't find it. The Hitachi's a lot easier to use.
-- J.S.