I am asking for input from Polaris water heater users and service personal about the reliability and efficiency of the product. I would be using LP for fuel and using the unit only for hot water, not heating, using either the 34 or 50 gallon unit.
Yes, I know the units cost around 2500 to 3300 uninstalled. I am wondering about the payback in fuel savings compared to a usual efficiency rating of 55 to 63 claimed by usual heater makers.
Thank you for your input and sharing on this type of water heater.
Virginbuild
Replies
The average family of 4 uses 50-55 Imp gals (62-70 US gals) per day. You should not need much more than the 34 gal unit since re-heat with gas is quite quick. Check their first hour draw volume.
Would have to have gas prices per energy unit (therms, million BTU's, 1000 cu ft) and water entry temps to do the economic calcs.
Experienced,
Hi neighbor to the north. Good to hear from you! I concur the 34 gallon would be about right, but then I was thinking about the recycling of the unit. I was picking up bad vibes on the web about igniters failing frequently on these units. Perhaps a little larger tank might make the igniters last longer. Then I suppose what I would save in igniter replacement I would loose in keeping around 17 gallons of extra hot water warmed.
Propane gas is variable with the market, not sure what it is todays price is. Lets say $2.00 a gallon U.S. rate and measure. I read on the web that some shells are failing around 9 years or so. The warranty is for 10 years. It is hard if not impossible to find a standard gas heater with a warranty greater than 6 or 7 years. I can play with the cost per gallon for heating as far as fuel equation goes, what I really am interested in is peoples "satisfaction" with the product as far as reliability and efficiency.
Thank you for replying. Hope spring is starting to bloom for you soon.
Virginbuild
Just getting some temps in high teens Celsius. My daughter just walked by the window. She's cleaning up the yard; should go and help!!
Didn't know you were in VI. Thought the virgin was for Virginia. And you're going to retire to Michigan?? Why?? (Just joking; there are lots of reasons) Summers in Mich/Jan-April in VI........would be my preferred!!
Experienced,
Been in the VI for 30 years and decided I would rather shovel snow flakes than put up with the furry of a hurricane :-) or the stress of "Is it going to hit us this time?" ten or a dozen times a season. I miss the intense seasons of the year up north, though I concur with you that January through May are good times in the VI weather wise. I won't burn my bridges behind me when I leave.
Regards,
Virginbuld
I'm not sure the payback is there.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things to like about the Polaris, particularly if it's only used for DHW.
However, if the house has hydronic heat, an indirect can provide the same service and efficiency with better reliability and durability.
A GFX heat exchanger can also reduce the BTUs you need to heat appreciably, particularly if you plumb it in to preheat cold water going into showers with the warm water coming down the drain.
Hi Constantin,
Thank you for the input,
I have looked into the GFX systems and feel that the payback isn't worth it. The reason being that I have a septic system and a little warm water entering the tank helps with better digestion of the effluent. Ground temp is around 45 to 46 year around. I feel that the heat exchange between two walls of piping is not as much as the literature claims. I figure the short time that the drain water is passing through the inner pipe is so short, that by the time the heat passes through 40 gauge PVC and through type M copper pipe, then to the cold water, not much heat has moved to the cold water from the waste water. I agree that there is some exchange however I think not significant enough to realize a payback within a reasonable time. I could be misconstrued on these ideas with the GFX system in which case hit me between the eyes to wake me :-)
It is good to see an exchange of different ideas relating to energy conservation.
Have good week end!
Virginbuild
Hmm... are you sure the GFX is offered in a PVC/hybrid version? Mine was all-copper. On average, I get a 15 degree rise on the incoming water. Assuming we use 50 gallons of hot water per day, that comes out to about 25 therms of gas a year or about $50 at the current gas/oil rates. It will take a number of years to payback the unit, but there are no moving parts, nothing to break, etc. and as our water usage increases in the future (kids) the payback will accelerate.Just a thought.
Constantin,
I am thinking that DW pipe being PVC with the coil wrapped around it. In retrospect I guess the DW pipe could be copper or iron. What is the usual installed price of a home sized unit?
Regards,
Virginbuild
Every GFX setup I know of is made of copper, which offers very good heat transfer and minimal mass. I suggest you look at their pricing on the web-site at gfxtechnology.com as the current trends in copper pricing are sure to throw any price today for a loop tomorrow.
I've had a Polaris 34 gallon running on natural gas for 10 years. During that time I've had 2 failures. First a temp sensor failed, the factory tech on the phone helped me troubleshoot it and told me how to wire around it so I could have heat until the part arrived a few days later. Then I had another problem, this time out of warranty. The tech support guy found out I was the end user and not a repair guy calling for help so he told me to call my local dealer. A couple of days later the local dealer shows up and he has no clue how to fix this heater and admits it. I called tech support and told them the story and they again walked me through the repair. This time it was the control module to the tune of about $100. Since I was in there anyway I changed the ignitor and kept the still good old one as a spare. In both instances, the tech support people on the phone were first rate in walking me through the diagnosis and repair of the device. I use it for DHW and for hydronic house heat through a heat exchanger so having a single source of heat with that kind of efficiency is worth the money to me. For hot water only I don't think the payback is there.
I think you're right on with your ideas on the GFX and others similar. I've posted on this topic somewhere here. The place they make sense is in college dorms and army barracks where a lot of hot water use is showering with simultaneous draw of cold with drainage of hot/warm.
Some of the "testing" is a bit suspect as I saw uninsulated GFX in pictures which would be taking some basement heat in; could be significant due to the latent heat of evaporation/condensation if condensation was occuring
Edited 5/13/2006 12:38 pm ET by experienced
To avoid the ignitor issues, you have to run the unit at about 150-160 degrees. Otherwise, have spare ignitors on hand and plan for a failure every couple of years if you're lucky.
It is my humble opinion that for a "condensing" heating appliance to have to be run at such high temperatures, far beyond the point where condensation should really occur, that in the field you will not get the claimed efficiencies on these units.
My previous employer used these for years. We had probably hundreds of these systems all over the country, and every winter came the tech calls and ignitor replacements, though not on all systems, of course these were dual-use systems, most running higher than 120.
If you're doing DHW only, and efficiency is a concern, then I would consider an instantaneous heater to eliminate summer time standby losses. Winter standby losses are generally moot if the heater is in conditioned space.
In summary it is my opinion that the Polaris claims far more than it really delivers and it's not worth the potential headache to use one. For the price you could just about get a true modulating/condensing boiler which would be silent and would ACTUALLY run in the 90's for efficiency, and then you're a storage tank away from doing domestic at that point. And you could use the boiler to heat your house extremely efficiently as well.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
After all these years, and considering how many people AWHG employs, it is curious that the Polaris still experiences ignitor failures due to condensation issues. In many ways, this product is well-positioned, though the pricing is high enough to make people who have hydronic heating systems look to quality indirects...I helped develop AHWGs first new appliance in 20 years and then they couldn't figure out how to sell it, so the product was withdrawn from market. That's a shame, because the WeatherPro solved a number of problems, such as combustible vapors, CO poisoning, etc. and would have been a good appliance for the warmer states. Oh well, 6 months of my life down the drain. :-P
I don't know that "curious" is the word I would use. "Ridiculous" comes to mind. When we first went out on our own a few years back, they updated the Polaris and we hoped that the obvious, rampant igniter problems would have been fixed. They did fix the finicky gas valve problem; their newer units are much less prone to freaking out over gas line settings. But the igniter problem remains...-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Hi NRTRob,
Your input has been most helpful. I managed to contact a tech rep at American Water Heater and he mirrored your observations in regards to premature failures. His explanation was a few years ago they found they were getting some faulty welds on the assembly line and that it has been corrected. He said that the ignitor failure was caused by operating the thermostat below the 140 F min recommendation. They like to see it at or close to 160 F. I asked if this was the temp range that their efficiency rating was pegged at and he told me that is so, and that it would push the efficiency a touch over 95 to 96 %. They include in their package an adjustable tempering valve that can be adjusted to deliver from the tank into the DHW system water at 120 F.
I guess that if I were in their engineering department I would use a better grade of stainless steel and design a shroud or canopy of some sort to protect the igniter without upsetting the flame in a negative pattern.
I also found out that in early April, A. O. Smith bought out the Company. As most of you know A. O. Smith has many name brands in the water heater business.
Last, thank you and all, who shared their thoughts a experiences.
Virginbuild
Fair enough, but I find that it strains my credibility to believe that the unit will condense at such high temperatures, and that running it at a higher temperature would increase its efficiency.Also I have to note that the clients I worked with in the past with these units were not blown away with their fuel efficiency. That is not a scientific observation, of course, but frankly I have little faith that the Polaris really stacks up to much more capable mod/con boilers out there in a similar price range (though more if you are doing DHW and need the storage tank too, of course).-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com