Recently, I posted a request for feedback on installing a french drain from inside the basement on the cheap.
I considered using vinyl gutters and polyurethane caulk, ripping the gutters into L channels and using the caulk to adhere the channels on the concrete floor.
I also had a thought that maybe I could use a material called Eternabond tape. Originally I used this to repair a seam in a flat roof. Although the repair was made only about 4 years ago, it stood up to north NJ weathers well. So I checked their website and now I have my answer.
To recap, I wanted a protection from once a fifty or hundred year rain, even then a seeping water from the base of foundation wall and floor. I plan to use foam board, metal studs and paperless sheetrock.
I wanted to post my idea and information about this tape. Again, any feedback will be appreciated and thank you in advance.
Replies
vinyl gutters and polyurethane caulk, ripping the gutters into L channels and using the caulk to adhere the channels on the concrete floor.
Huh??
The idea is to hold the water so the general living area does not get wet. I thought gutters can be cut (length wise) into L shaped channels. So out of 1 gutter, that is, not the part that goes on facia but the tubes that lead the water down the wall, I can get either 2 or 4 channels.
I thought that polyurethane caulk might have the best adhesion to concrete floor (old house) and either the vinyl or aluminum gutter parts. But I wasn't sure how long polyurethane would maintain adhesion to concrete, vinyl or metal.
This channel would go under the foam boards. The boards would be installed above the channels, not right down to the floor. The channels would be directed toward either a pit or a dam where standing water can be pumped with sump-pump, low water level utility pump or even a vacuum cleaner into a utility sink. For myself, I planned on a dam.
I won't even slope the channel toward the dam. From last flooding, I see that my basement will not have a puddle deeper than half an inch. So if there is water standing in the channel in some spots, I figure it will dry within the week and not affect the basement very much, especially as I plan to use materials that do not encourage mold.
The Eternabond information is in Eternabond.com, I think. Please google for the name. The company claims it will stick to concrete (with its primer), vinyl and metal. I think this is the new technology I was looking for and I know that it works really well as roofing repair tape. I plan to order the double stick tape. It is very expensive but my basement is small and I only have to protect 2 sides.
huh? Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
LOL, sorry I seem to be running off with my thoughts. I had a while to think about this and I got all excited when I remembered about this tape. As far as I can tell, this tape is not ordinary roof repair tape or weatherization tape. It looks like my poor man's french drain may actually work! Now only thing is I have to find cheap square tube so the tape will stick properly. The gutter tubes have corrugations on them and the adhesion area will be reduced. I considered aluminum angles but those are too expensive.
I think that what you are talking about is a homemade version of the "baseboard" chanel that they show here.http://www.barrierstl.com/Interior.htmlAnd that you are look for a material for the "half shell" and a way of sealing it to the floor and wall.But I would not call that a french drain.in general a french drain is one that is not seen, vs an open "ditch".A drain under a slab would be a french drain.Now here is a french drain along with a drain to catch any water that comes down the walls.http://www.utahbasementsystems.com/content.php?page=basement_waterproofing_utah.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thank you and JeffBuck for replies. I do see why you are concerned about my idea, but I don't see how I can afford cutting into the concrete. I also see how other people may take this idea and apply to wrong situations. I admit I was excited by solution only.
That said, I think this is worth a try, at least for myself. Of course, I don't want this to become the famous last words, but the structural issues don't concern me for this house. It is also my own house that I am experimenting on. Outside water pressure against the foundation or sitting water table are not issues for me. The house was built in early 60's, and there are no cracks in the block foundation, I guess I got lucky. 6 hours of heavy rain does not leak into the basement. Only time it leaked was when this area had 24 hours of pouring rain, and houses only hundred feet away flooded and threw out most of basement furniture. They called it once a 100 year rain, I believe. I also admit that there are few simple things I can do outside to direct the water away from the foundation as well. I was part lazy and part curious to see how much water I get without trying the improvements. I did slope the side yard and got rid of fence posts that, I believe, became channels for water, but I could still caulk the joint between the foundation and sidewalk, etc. Please don't laugh, but it's hard to start these chores in order to do them right; the pool you have to clean because the kids are looking at it.
Again, thank you all and I still would appreciate further thoughts. Especially, if anybody can still see problems arising out of water pressures. About the bottom rows of blocks remaining wet, I think only way to solve that problem is outside french drain, and thinking that inside drain will correct this problem may be a bit misleading. But that is strictly my novice opinion and I am kind of thinking aloud here.
Inside french drains are usually below floor level to solve the water issues you describe, including wet bottom block. Typically, a trench is cut around the perimeter and holes are drilled below the floor surface level into the bottoms of the cells of the bottom course of block. Any water getting inside the wall weeps out of these holes and into a perf pipe laid in the trench. A waterproof membrane (like some semi-rigid plastic panels) is fixed to the wall and go from above the wet line on the wall down into the trench so any water getting behind them will be directed to the french drain. The trench is then backfilled with gravel and covered over with concrete, and the drain itself is either run to a sump or to daylight.
The system you suggest *should* work to minimize damage from infrequent water infiltration, assuming you get a good permanent seal between the channel and the concrete. Be sure to use a caulk or glue that has good flex properties and is designed to stick to both concrete and the material you end up using for the channel. Also be sure the drain goes somewhere where it can drain in the event of large water. (If you run it to a spot that will be submerged in "the big rain", it ain't gonna drain so well.)
That said, I know that somebody makes plastic "baseboard" drains that you attach to your walls to act as a water channel -- kind of a poor man's french drain. You might wanna look into that option rather than making your own out of gutters.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
.....I can afford cutting into the concrete.....
FWIW, if it were my basement I'd buy a $15 Harb.F 7" diamond blade* for the skill saw and cut a 1" deep grouve around the perimeter, when chip out a channel with your air impact or Bosch Bulldog, etc. for the drain.
I have no faith in long term adhesive solutions.
* have cut about 300 Lin feet with one I bought a few years ago, everything from 2-1/4" deep to 1-1/2" deep, blade still cutting OK - I use it wet, with a trickle from the garden hose and a cheap plastic handle garage sale double insulated skilsaw - throw in a GFCI outlet if the wet saw scares you, never yet gotten a shock off mine.
"I have no faith in long term adhesive solutions. "
I'm with you here. I think your approach might just work. I was talking to a lady last fall who lives on a river flood plain, and was looking for a way to keep water out of the basement. Have no experience with this sort of thing, except new construction, where we usually install footing drains and drain to daylight.
for what it's worth ....
many moons ago, my Dad busted out some of the old concrete floor at their place and poured new concrete.
be broke out maybe 8 inches or so along the back wall of the basement ... ie, back wall of house ... ie ... back wall of house and yard above that caught all the hillside run off.
he poured new concrete, and steel troweled a "U" shape a coupla 3 or 4 inches into it. Higher on the right side ... lower on the left ... and made for a little gutter aimed straight for the floor drain.
the basement is mostly dry ... only during very heavy, long term storms does it leak.
and now when it does ... that water trickles down his steel troweled gutter and straight over the painted concrete floor directly into the floor drain.
he did that "fix" maybe 25 years ago.
made sure when we drylock'd the walls to leave the base of that wall untouched and certainly didn't caulk the hairline crack that was right above the floor.
house is around 100 yrs old ... maybe in another 100 or so it'll get a slight bulge in the belgium block.
thinking he used a rounded "swimming pool" trowel.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Now only thing is I have to find cheap square tube so the tape will stick properly.
You want a Genova RainGo square pvc downspout.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
I've seen systems designed for doing just exactly what you want to do. And I've seen one basement with just such a system installed. That system seemed to be working in that basement.If the eternalbond tape works, I don't know why what you're doing won't.
Rich Beckman
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Like this?
http://www.dryguys.com/content.php?page=drytrak_new_jersey
Many years ago, when I had my first old house, there was a company that sold a system like that - although much more elaborate and expensive!
As long as you know that it's not going to be as good as doing it right, from the outside, if you think it will be good enough, go for it.
That said, I'm sure I'll get l flamed, & so may you, by people telling us about doing it right...
Good luck!
Thank you and thank you to all for your sound advices. I am pretty much set on trying the tape and some sort of an angle for channel. I figure manufactured vinyl channels still would not dry out unless I take the trouble to slope about 50 feet of it all the way to one spot. It also would not keep the block foundation, to which the channel would lean, dry. I don't see any difference between using the bought channel and angle channel that I want to make. I also have to raise one end for a slope, and that would defeat the purpose of catching the water from the bottom. Then I might as well cut into the concrete floor. I did consider cutting the floor with dust catching jigs and vacuum as shown in this magazine, but it just looks like more trouble than worth in my situation.
The eternabond tape is based on what they call a microbond glue. This kind of glue forms a microscopic bond between materials. They do have sort of disclaimers about using it on pvc, silicon, and that primer should be used with masonary materials. The 3M company also has similar tape that forms a micro-bond, which was shown on cable tv show about fasteners or glue, some such.
I do not have blind faith in chemical products, and recent news about lead in toys have made me even more cautious. I thought about this project for nearly 2 years and have searched for bonding material. It took me that long to connect this tape to my project! I used it as flat roof seam sealer about 4 years ago on my parent's house. I used the foul smelling primer on dirty but swept tar. After 4 years of sun and snow, the tape is performing really well and there is no sign of detachment. The pvc backer also doesn't crack with all the movements. For these reasons, I am sold on this technology.
Last year, 4"x50' tape and primer cost about $110 from a local roofing store. It isn't something I can use freely but I believe this gives me a chance to do my project to satisfaction.
Again, thank you.
Be sure to post after it's done & you've had a major rain - this is how we learn from one another! Good Luck!
I don't doubt that the miracle tape will stick to concrete.<!----><!----><!---->
I don't doubt that the miracle tape will stick to aluminum or vinyl.<!----><!---->
I do doubt that it will overcome expansion and contraction of dissimilar materials.<!----><!---->
Thank you for the thought. I have also used this tape to waterproof the joints between aluminum sheet metals. Last summer, I had to replace the A/C ducts that were installed on the roof. This was my parent's house. Their house was designed without A/C in mind, I think, and commercial type of condenser and fan were installed outside with the ducts going over a flat roof and penetrating into the liv. rm. ceiling.
I used 2" foam panels to insulate the duct and then covered the insulation with sheet-metal. The metal was to protect the insulation from weather and animals. It was labor intensive but I had the time and I couldn't think of better way to insulate and protect the duct. Redoing it as it was, which was to use fiber-lined duct and then just seal over with tar, was out of question.
I used 24" wide rolls of aluminum sheets from HD. I installed it with white side out. Initially, I used weatherization tape sold in HD. They are used to water proof the joint between windows, doors, etc and the house wrap. It wasn't that cheap but turned out to be worthless. The metal sheets moved alot under the sun and this tape couldn't maintain the adhesion. I saw this after just one day after using the tape and fortunately did not waste more than 1 roll. So I tried the eternabond tape and it did wrinkle with the metal movement but adhesion was not broken.
3M company has a tape called VHB tape. I saw its performance on a tv show so I checked it out. It looked to be very good tape for difficult situations but it was too expensive.
With the use of their primer, the eternabond company claims life expectancy of 18 to 30 years. Since I am using it in cool and dark basement, I expect this system to last over 20 years, at least. This basement project will not be finished until at least one or two years; budget and the fact that kids aren't old enough to stay in the basement by themselves. But as soon as I install my system, I will deliberately pour water into the channel and see what happens.
I am beginning to feel apologetic about being so sold on this tape. I know that some people may try this on a leaky basement and some may even claim that job was done. But I am afraid this solution jumped out at me and has taken me by the throat. I have to try this or I will regret it, lol.
Again, thank you all for your thoughts.
Most basements tend to stay within a fairly narrow temp range (unless they are being heated and cooled), so there might not be that much movement in materials.
Rich Beckman
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