I am building some kitchen cabinets for myself and had planed on using poplar to do do face frames and doors. However, a good friend of mine who has been building cabinets for over 30 years suggested I use maple instead. The reason being that over time the variation in density of the summer and winter growth will telegraph through the paint and show up as ripples. Any thoughts?
Chris
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I haven't noticed that one before, but I've only been building cabinets for 12 years. I'll have to look for it the next time I go back to a job. I would say that poplar is a little easier to work with, and is about half the cost where I am, but the maple, being much harder, doesn't dent as easily. Think of every time a plate edge bumps into the corner of the face frame as the dishes are being put away. Soft maple is another nice option. My local supplier also offers a paint grade cherry (extra sap and less appealing grain) at the same price as the maple. The cherry is nice for dimensional stability, if you're doing inset doors.
Any thoughts?
Whacha think? The cabinet-grade poplar I've seen/used seemed worlds better as paint-grade than the maple.
Dang it, we need Mike Maines, too--wasn't one of his last articles on poplar-framed cabs?
I prefer poplar, it takes primer excellently and being slightly more porous it holds finish better. Maple can get burnished by dull cutters and sanding to fine, then it becomes almost glassy.
Also Poplar is diffuse porus not ring porous so the summer/winter wood is almost identical and never has telegraphed in my exp.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I've used soft maple when I couldn't get decent poplar, and it's just a little harder and sands about like poplar. I like the way it machines for cope and stick too.
Eh. I should have clarified I was referring to hard rock maple.
You are right about soft. The only soft I ever get my hands on is quilted or curly and never painted.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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The cabinet in the article I did recently had Doug Fir face frames, but we usually use poplar for paint-grade, as do our cabinet subs. It's cheap, available, relatively hard, paints well. If finished with lacquer the pores and grain can show through, which I kind of like but would not be acceptable if one was looking for an automotive-quality finish.
Over time poplar does tend to gather dents, joints telegraph, and doors warp. Maybe with full M+T joints the joints would hold together but I use pocket screws and our subs usually use pocket screws, biscuits or dowels. Hard maple moves more than most woods with changes in humidity so similar construction techniques would probably cause joints to show. I personally have only used maple for natural-finished work which hides that sort of thing.
There are two or three super high-end cab shops around here--one doing a kitchen for us now built Norm Abram's kitchen cabinets--who charge a premium, use HARD maple for paint-grade, and from the few projects I've seen don't have these problems. Our clients aren't usually willing to pay 100% extra for the slightly better quality though.
My brother, a cabinetmaker on Nantucket island, uses European Beech for everything. They buy it rough. He says there is nothing better to work with. He's replaced exactly one door out of thousands due to warpage.
I'm curious what you found worse about maple than poplar? Was it hard or soft maple? Clear or low-grade?
what you found worse about maple than poplar? Was it hard or soft maple? Clear or low-grade?
Truth be told it was the maple suppliers as much as the pruduct they were delivering.
Never could quite tell what would be in a baulk, some hard, some dark as a hershey bar, some soft, some white as balsa--just all over the place. Where as te poplar would be even, firm, consistent in grain--all good qualites and for cheaper than the maple.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I know you guys are talking about painted work but I have a somewhat related Q. I just finished a small project with stained poplar. It didn't take the stain very evenly at all. Is there a way to avoid that with poplar?
not really.
Thinned Seal-cote shellac. I mean half and half thinned from the can. Denatured Alc. It will impart a very slight color change, so you will have to ajust the final stain. And using a gel stain will help a lot.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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The thinned shellac before the stain?
Matt,
I recently done some craftsman style trim in an addition we built using clear SYP. I precoated all the trim with a 4 to1 mixture of denatured alcohol and sealcoat shellac. I gave it a quick rub with 0000 steel wool and then stained it.
The difference was daylight and dark using the precoat. It made the wood grain just pop. The trim looked like it was antique before we ever nailed it up,which is exactly what we were looking for.
I would not hesitate to try it on any wood. You can adjust your mixture until you find the results your looking for.
dug
Thanks guys...
I'll remember the shellac trick. I'll probably not try staining popular again. Come to think of it I coulda probably just as easily used SYP. I guess popular kinda fools ya as it looks so nice and clear in it's raw state. It's fine for what I used it for. (something in the garage). Here 99% of what you see in houses is painted, so I don't cross this bridge often, although on every house I do stain some shoe mold for around the cabinet bases. Think I'll try the gel stain this time as I have one house with dark cabs, and often, getting a dark stain finish is problematic.
I was just suspicious when sphere first said "shellac" - made me think of some french guy who uses it on everything from the outside of his house to in his toothpaste. ;-)
yup, it limits the pigment from blotching up in pore changes, and a dye stain works even better than pigment like minwax.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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and a dye stain works even better than pigment like minwax
minwax can be either dye only or dye and pigment, depending on the color you pick.
attached
I rarely use MW so my exp. has been that the yellow cans are pigmented, judging by the oilbased vehicle and can sludge in the bottom.
Aniline dyes seem to suspend in solution more better, and the alc. vehicle allows it to transmorgify ( new word!) with the sealcote.
My main color concentrates are water/alc. based true base concentrates..I can use water, alcohol, ethylene glycol, propylene glycol or diabasic ether as thinners / vehicles. The glycols keep grain raise to minimum and anything that lessens the water content can give a truer color performance.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I'm doing my best to move away from the minwax stains, but unfortunately I have way too much experience with them. Some get the gunk on the bottom and some don't.
I've used alcohol dyes before, I don't think I work fast enough for them. You can see my stain pattern as a I switch from area to area, ie overlaps and bare spots. I've been having good luck with the General Finish gel stains. I like how thick they are, easy to spread and plenty of working time. Good, consistent color, even on dificult wood.
Clearwater http://clearwatercolor.com/products.asp#ggviewer-offsite-nav-9252856 is an awesome product.
I helped make it (G) ...good stuff.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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If you have lap marks w/dye stain, you need an extender PG, EG or DB.
Fool proof. But then again...(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Is there a way to avoid that with poplar?
Yep, don't use poplar. Apologies for the smartaleck answer but it's still kind of true. You can try the shellac approach but then you almost have to use a gel stain. IMO, gel stain over shellac is just like painting. It takes on an opaque quality to the finish. Defeats the purpose of going for the stained look of real wood.
Q. I just finished a small project with stained poplar. It didn't take the stain very evenly at all. Is there a way to avoid that with poplar?
I've experienced perfect results with Minwax Water Based Stain. There is a bit of a learning curve with this product.....particularly with long pieces....need to feather/fade out the ends as you move from section to section. This is typical with all wood species I've worked with, not just the poplar. But, the water based stain does provide a consistent finish.
Pedro - ok who stained my hooves?
Poplar will get a lot more dinged-up over time. Don't ask me how I know this...
Where I live maple from the local hardwood mill is 3.55/bd.ft. Poplar from Home Depot (we have no local source for poplar) is 6.00/bd.ft.
I prefer the maple.
Steve
Hey Steve, if you need there is a hard wood lumber shop in Rome. They have pop and all other nice hardwoods in stock. They will mill it also. As a reference, they did most of the trim in Bolt Castle in the thousand islands!
Bowers Lumber I believe is the name they go by.
I would go with whatever is cheaper locally. It's pretty hard to tell what is under a couple of coats of paint and the two woods will wear about the same. I tend to use soft maple since I also use it for edgeing on clear-finished or stained birch plywood cabinets. That way, I don't have to buy another species of wood.
ChipTam
I would never use poplar for doors, it is to unstable. I guarantee half the doors will be warped in months. Brown maple which is cheaper than soft maple is the material of choice for that app.
I've used poplar for years and have never ever had grain telegraph through paint.
I always use an oil primer and either oil or latex top coats.
I use poplar for cabinet door and drawer front stiles and rails, as well as cabinet face frames. Some base boards, some door and window casing, some crown.
One of my kitchen cabinet doors, about 12" wide by 52" tall, has twisted about 3/16th of an inch out of "flat", but the other 70+ in the house are still bang-on. I built my cabinets over 10 years ago.
This whole debate of Poplar is always about choice of cut and growth conditions of the tree, handling and finishing.
If one wants to find a fault, one can with any species. Ipe sucks for deck if it's not endtreated and fastened correctly. Oaks have large pores, and can bleed oil finish like varnish. Maple can resist absorbsion unless dyed.
It's not what ya have, it's what ya use and how you use it. Gimme a tree growing on a hill and I can about predict how it's gonna bend as it dries if the rings are out of balance from one side to the next. Lumber with a pith running thru the board from end to end, will get cut short.
Common sense.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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I have to say I always enjoy reading your comments about wood species. You just have tremendous knowledge of all things wood, and how to work it.An unintentional, but well-deserved, cyber suck-up.Best,
The Bodyguard
Accumulated from years of mistakes and learning events is all.
But thanks.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You just have tremendous knowledge of all things wood, and how to work it.
Sounds like one of those funny man crushes, no?
Seriously though, he's right. You've got some great insight there. Always a pleasure to see you chime in on that.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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