A covered porch is being added to a house as shown in the illustration below.
The problem is that with the existing house geometry, the porch roof slope has to be pretty flat. The roof soffit across the face of the gables is just about 9′-0″ above porch finish floor, and the porch itelf is 8 feet deep.
I know we can basically treat it as a flat roof (and surface it accordingly) but the client is concerned about how it might look. The main roof (12/12) is asphalt comp, and I’ve always been told that composition shingles can’t be used on anything less than about a 3/12 slope. With some modifications (not indicated in the sketch), the best slope we’d be able to get on the porch would be about 1.5/12 (and that’s pushing things).
Does anyone have any ideas/product recommendations on how we can get the porch roof to look nice? Is it possible to somehow laminate comp shingles on top of a waterproof membrane just to achieve the appearance of comp shingles?
Any other ideas?
Thanks!
Replies
With a roof that flat, unless the house is lower than the street, you'll never see it anyway. Just use EPDM.
If you will be able to see it, talk 'em into copper. That looks good with anything and you'll probly get a few volunteers from here to put it on fer ya. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
unless the house is lower than the street
That's actually the lay of the land, unfortunately. The path from the street is probably 10 or 15 feet above the house, so the roof is very visible as one approaches the front door.
Copper is an interesting alternative. You don't happen to have any photos of a low-slope copper roof, do you? Or do you know anyone here whom we should "ping" for such a photo?
Well, you could always lower the street. <G>
Sphere or Grant Logan would be your best bets for copper ideas. I kind of thought they might pop in to this thread on their own.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I can roof about anything they can design, but I don't really like any of Ragnar's designs. The roof's no problem, but I see flashing issues with both flat roof designs.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
I see flashing issues with both flat roof designs.
Could you elaborate on that? We don't want to screw anything up, of course. ;)
If you live in a climate that has winter you could build up considerable snow load on the porch roof and the nearby roofs. You will also get ice damming with melting runoff from the attic roof refreezing on the porch roof and creating a dam, backing up the melting runoff up under the shingles on the adjacent roofs.
That house really wasn't designed for a porch. I'm sorry I can't think of a good looking way to alter the rooflines.
You raise good points about the ice dams and snow loads. Fortunately the house is in Seattle, so winters are mild.
Ragnar,
Any way you can suggest them contimuing the existing roof out over the front porch and then adding another roof in between that roof and the existing roof back to the main roof with a nice pitch on it so that you can have shingles?
I hope this is smaller.
Joe,
Thanks for the idea. I'll clean it up and see how it looks.
Here's the alternate design I've come up with: roof ABCD would be framed at a lower slope than the existing 12/12 to bring eave AD out to the face of the existing secondary gable. The roof wouldn't be parallel to the other plane on the left hand side of the main gable, but I don't know how noticeable it would be in real life.
The "dogleg" of the porch roof is thus eliminated, but we still have the slope problems. Maybe I can talk them into a shallower porch or lower soffit so that we can get a minimum slope of 2/12.
Do you have any thoughts on that alternate design?
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Edited 8/23/2007 5:04 am ET by Ragnar17
Ragnar,
I still don't like the way that looks, especially since it's the front of the house. It also takes away from the look and focal point of the gable. I just drew in the fascia line real quick, I know it's not good but I hope it looks alright to you.Joe Carola
Here's a picture of the basic idea that's being emulated. The big difference, of course, is the absence of the second gable.
What would you guess is the slope on that porch roof?
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Edited 8/23/2007 2:53 pm ET by Ragnar17
That ani't no 8 foot deep porch. More like 4 feet. If your porch were scaled back to 4 foot, you would have not problem. It is true, that a four foot deep porch is not very functionable. But have you ever, I mean ever, known anyone to use a front porch? People talk about it. People talk about how quaint it is, but people never set there.
Perhaps your client could scale the porch back to six feet deep. At six feet they can still comfortably place a bench on it, (even if they never use it) I think that could largely solve the slope issue and I also think that bringing the eave two feet back from the gable next to it would make for a much more interesting design. HAving the porch even with the side gable is boring and gives the house and even more boxy look than it already has.
Thanks to all who provided constructive criticism and help.
I'm going to try to talk the clients out of an 8-foot-deep porch. Something on the order of six feet would allow us to frame a more appropriate hip roof over the porch.
If it's in the budget, the gable on the right might be eliminated and replaced with a hip similar to the photo below. I think that will give a much better overall appearance, but I'm not sure the money's there.
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"I'm going to try to talk the clients out of an 8-foot-deep porch. Something on the order of six feet would allow us to frame a more appropriate hip roof over the porch."
FYI, our side porch, pictured in my earlier post, is only 5'2" deep, and my wife and I use it all summer long ... breakfast, dinner, grilling. We have a couple chairs and a small table, and it's fine.
It's a bit tight for entertaining a crowd, but that's not its purpose.
Allen
Thanks for the additional info, Allen. It's good to know that a six-foot-deep porch would be usable.
I would guess no more than 2/12. If you can't extend the gable, then you should drop the front girder down as low as you can and make it a flush girder to get at least a 3/12 pitch. Make the top of the girder flush to the top of the rafters and use joists hangers for the rafters and add the overhang later.
This way you keep the porch roof uner your gable fascia and you don't cover up the widows or door with such a low girder at the front.Joe Carola
Joe,
Thanks again for the constructive criticism.
Ragnar,
One more possiblity,
Extend right gable forward to front of porch so it aligns with left gable and cornices, then looking at your drawing in 93828.9 bring points A and D forward to front of porch and extend A to B and D to C creating two new valleys that will terminate at front of house, align so lower "secondary" gable will connect across front of house, hopefully it will diminish the overpowering roof area in front. Sorry, no drawing capabilities, but hope this is clear, maybe Joe can draw it for me ? :)
Geoff
Joe, what program do you use for these sketches? I know you have said before, but I'm drawing a blank (pun intended). this is a tagline this is an anti-tagline
I just used paint to mess up Ragnar's drawing.....;-)Joe Carola
Extend gable end out to desired point. Allow roof plane from gable to run into wall to left below the gutter. Make that wall a water feature that uses rain water. Make sure its finished before October in Seattle. Be sure to pay your CBIC premiums!
This might not be applicable in your case, but when I was confronted with a similar situation, I gained additional slope by lowering the front of the porch roof line.
The steps are inset into the porch floor to allow sufficient headroom.
The porch was all new construction on an existing house, and is less than six feet deep.
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Allen
Thanks Allen. Nesting the steps is a good trick to come up with a few extra inches of headroom under beam.
What roof slope did you end up with on that project? Did you need to do anything special during installation of the shingles?
"What roof slope did you end up with on that project? Did you need to do anything special during installation of the shingles?"
3-inch rise per foot. That's not quite adequate for the cedar shingles, but no problems so far (six years).
The shingles are attached directly to 1 x 2s that span 2 x 6 rafters. Plenty of ventilation for the shingles, but I try to minimize how often I walk on it. (this is my house, not a client's).
Allen
Some things just should not be done, even if possible. That buttt ugly porch roof is one such thing. Then again there is no accounting for taste and your client ani't paying you to be a design consultant.
People have suggested copper. I personally think it would look odd. It is one thing to have a small accent copper roof over say a bay window, but that porch is very large and would beg the question, " why is only the porch done in copper".
I think you just have to treat it as a flat roof. Not sure if you could do the flat roof treatment and then cover it with matching composition shingles or not.
Some things just should not be done, even if possible. That buttt ugly porch roof is one such thing.
Actually, I don't think that the clients are out of line in wanting a covered porch in that location. There are a lot of houses from the same time period that have a similar layout (see my pic to Joe in post #18 above). The main problem we're having is just making the roof surface look acceptable.
Not sure if you could do the flat roof treatment and then cover it with matching composition shingles or not.
We're still trying to figure that out ourselves! ;)
"The main problem we're having is just making the roof surface look acceptable."NO!Think about the surface after you nail down the design and shape. I agree with Don that the design you have presented at the first is terrible and would ruin the look of the house.
I agree with CU that you are creating a flashing/roofing nightmare that would require the very best tradesman in your area to keep water out, but you add a lot to cost for that.
and I like Joe's presentations.
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Flashing issues 101:
I never like dealing with the little wedges that are created on the sides of the low pitched roof, but that's more of a cosmetic thing. If you stick with this design or similar, a standing seam roof will channel lots of water in the first row all the way to the left side where the shingle roof dumps on it as well as the valley. Same issue on the side we can't see.
Getting up under that eyebrow (pediment) looks fiddly as well and a good place for debris and birds to nest.
I'd raise the whole thing up so the porch cornice matches the existing cornice (none is shown in your drawing, but I'm assuming there is a fascia or some crown) and then you can create more slope on your roof since it lands on the other roof.
Hope you get the drift - don't have time to do any drawings right now.
http://grantlogan.net/
"he ot the placed closed down whyyy thhhattt nnooo gooodddd" - sancho
Try this.
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WTF, it's already ugly; almost anything would be an improvement.
Ideally, those two mismatched gables oughta be scaled back into reasonably-sized dormers set into a main roof that has some coherence from one side of the house to the other, but I don't know what that would do to their upstairs floor plan. So this is a quickie, FWIW.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
With that style roof, I see no reason to keep the porch roof low pitch at all. It can raise to the top of the awning skirt roof on the gable end face.
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OK, so I've made some more sketches based on some of the suggestions here (and what I think you're describing).
I should probably point out that this is an early 1900s house. It was originally what I'd term a "folk Victorian", but there have been so many additions that the original footprint is almost unrecognizable. One of the only original features still intact is that gable on the right, with the continuous return (don't know what to call that feature exactly).
So here are the new sketches. In all cases, the porch depth has been reduced to 6'-0", and roofed @ 2/12.
"A" shows the gable eliminated and replaced with a hip that would require some infilling of the main roof.
"B" shows the same infilled roof, but with the original gable intact.
"C" shows a raised porch roof, running back at 2/12 to the main roof. The "continuous return" is eliminated from the original gable.
"D" shows the raised porch roof and infilling of the main roof to line AB (same as in options "A" and "B").
Based on the age and general modest background of the house, I think option "A" is probably the most historically accurate. The twin gables in "B" are something I don't think I've seen before; same goes for options "C" and "D".
For the record, I had considered option "C" before, but it looks pretty bad in my opinion without infilling the main roof (which is something I had assumed was out of the question for budget reasons).
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For some reason, option "D" didn't make it on the last post....
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That last is what I had in mind, but the right hip section does not have to be the same pitch as the rest. it can pitch as the gable roof does - 12/12?You can also finegal with this configuration to get 3/12 on the porch too, by dropping the outer beam and lifting the intersect.If you do have to keep less than a 2/12 pitch, use ice and water shield, and drop the exposure from 5" down to 4"
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