Post formed formica in a corner (diff width cabinets) question
MAybe in the wong forum- is there a better forum for laminate (formica ) questions?
We have a small office that has a counter area that goes into a 90 degree corner. we want to put what they call here post formed formica on it, that is, the formica factory attached to a /base countertop that has a rolled/formed front edge and also has a rolled raised backsplash that is part of the countertop, not glued onto the countertop after installed.
two questions about using this stuff.
1. the (cabinets) the top will sit one (factory made from a lowes type box store) are different depths, same heigth off the floor but different depths– one wall has kitchen cabinets on it, other wall has bath cabinets, one wall cabinets are approx 25 inches deep other wall like 22 inches (approximate). question is what happens at the corner, does the usual 45 degree angle become a different angle?
2. what happens at the front edge, and also at back edge where the backsplashes meet in the corner. My wife is afraid the miter cuts will open up the joint where the backsplashes meeet and it will look bad, seems to me it will still fit up if both sides are cut at whatever the new angle is.
Anyone ever done one of these situations with different width(depth) counters meeting in a corner? ANY PIX?? Thanks
Replies
fist off, I dont think you will be able to get a post formed top from lowes off the rack that will be of a shallower depth. If someone tries to miter one of these post formed tops with a miter that was not 45 degrees the raised section of the front edge will not line up correctly. The one time a client of mine wanted a rolled front edge on a "L" shaped counter where the cabinets were different depths My counter company did a "dogleg" joint, where there was a 45 degree miter about 5" thru the front edge then the joint turned 45 degrees (back to square from the front edge) thru the rest of the counter depth. But this application would only work without a rolled backsplash. Your best bet on this would be to go with a square edged counter, then the joint (if even necessary) could go anywhere.
Greg
If you cut the miter at some angle other than 45 with the compliment on the other side you could have 2 different depths (Mr pythagorus please call your office) but actually finding a shallower depth counter might be a trick.
For 24 inch cabinet and 22 inch cabinet, the angles would be on the order of 42.5 and 47.5 but I would definitely want them to try it out on a junk top/tops first. Most tops mfgs have bits and pieces around that just take up space.
You need to make a complex cut. The front edge won't fit together right unless it's at a 45, but then you need to dogleg to get the rest to go together. Not too complicated if there's no backsplash, but pretty complicated since there is.
I'd come up with some trick like installing a rectangular cutting board in the corner to design away the problem.
What if you ...
install the shallower cabinets away from the wall with the appropriate spacers to make them 24" from the wall like the kitchen cabinets. Now your 25" counter top will fit both sets of cabinets and a standard 45 will do the job.
Something has to change
Option 1: Square edged counter top, or with a field applied rounded /detailed front edge. This would be my first choice.
Option 2: Block bath cabinets out from their wall to match depth of kitchen base cabinets. This will require a fill strip at the end of the cabinet run to conceal the blocking (unless the "non-corner" end of the run is already concealed in a wall corner). This option would allow the use of standard, 25" wide, postformed counters.
Even IF you can find postformed counters in a 23" width, the joinery becomes very problematic - and will not look very good unless the joint is near perfect. Special order at best and will probably cost more than option #1.
I assume the 22" cabinets were used to satisfy some space requirement, making option #1 the best solution. Fabricating a square edged, laminate counter with an applied wood edge is not very complex and will probably yield the best looking result.
Good luck!
Jim
another way to do this if you are set on using off the shelf counters from Lowes or wherever, is to rip the backsplash off the shallow leg, & clip the standard depth miter square at the right spot, then the miters will work right, you just loose the backspals on the shallow leg.
How would you
end the one remaining backsplash (on the standard width counter top) with this solution?
Nip off the mitered section of the backsplash and let it butt into the corner? But your 45 miter cut will not hit the wall corner...come to think of it, the front counter corner would not align with the cabinet corner either --- different counter top overhang at cabinets.
I still think I would build it square and apply an edge.
Jim
What gbwood suggests would work. The wider counter would have it's backsplash dead-ending into the wall. The corner of the miter would end up a couple of inches from the real corner, along the wall with the narrower cabs. The front corner would align just fine if it was planned right.
It works!
gbwood and DanH are right!
If the rip is made at 23" from the front edge of the counter; the miter will not hit the wall corner, but the more important front inside corner joint will line up and counter top overhang will match on both cabinet runs.
23" rip = 22" cabinet + 1" overhang -- matches "standard" configuration.
I modeled this solution at about 1/2 size and it works, assuming a 23" rip cut will completely remove the backsplash and the radius at the rear edge of the counter where it meets the backsplash. It should, unless the current postformed counters differ significantly from the old one in my basement.
So the only question now is whether the OP can live without a backsplash on the "narrow counter" wall.......
Jim
So the only question now is whether the OP can live without a backsplash on the "narrow counter" wall.......
Well, there's also the question as to whether the rip can be made without tearing up the Formica.
rip it from the bottom side, with any decent carbide blade on a table saw or a skil saw (with a straight edge) you should be just fine
Tearing up the Formica
That can be problematic.....
When I was installing all of the kitchens for our local H4H, we used postformed Formica tops exclusively.
Generally H4H would buy pre-mitered and routed tops (for miter clips/bolts) which I would cut to length and then assemble; apply the end finish laminate and install as a unit.
Most kitchens required a minimum of 2 straight cuts plus a sink cut out, of course.. So in the course of 20 or 30 kitchens, I had a chance to try several techniques.
The main problems with a postformed top are the attached backsplash and the lip at the front edge. I got a lot of advice; tape the cut area; score the cut line and cut from the front; use a saber saw with a down-stroke cut blade, etc.
Further, I did not have access to a table saw at the time. All of my cuts were made with either a hand held circular saw or a saber saw.
My technique: 1) Cut from the back / bottom with a circular saw - 40 or 60 tooth carbide blade, let the saw come up to full speed before entering the stock, then a slow advance never letting the saw bog down. 2) I would make shims to "even out the bumps" on the back of the counter - if the saw blade does not ride perfectly square to the face of the counter - you are toast when you get to the backsplash / counter top corner. 3) Cut the backsplash section first. 4) When cutting the main width of the counter top you must support the counter top fully on both sides of the cut - otherwise the Formica chips as the cut is completed. 5) All cuts are shooting board or batten guided.
After a while I wised up and made an "L" shaped shooting board with appropriate shims already attached that would self- square to the counter backsplash and guide the saw - held in place with clamps during sawing. Typically I would need to remove between 6" and 18" of length - this provided ample scrap material for a test cut to be sure the saw blade was perfectly square to the saw foot - critical.
Sink cut outs were a bit easier since minor chipping would be covered by the sink rim. Technique was essentially the same - circular saw the straight cuts from the bottom - batten guided (Piffin screwed to the cut out scrap); finish rounded corners from the top with a saber saw and "cut-on-the-downstroke" blade - tape either on the saw foot or on the Formica to avoid any scratching. Again, support of the top and cut out section is critical to avoid chipping as the cut is finished.
To rip the Formica top in question, with the tools I have available now, I would:
Hack the backsplash off of the top just to get it out of the way and lighten the work piece - even a sawzall from the back would work.
If needed, make and attach shims to the bottom of the counter - full length of the top - one shim would straddle the cut line and be fastened to the "good side" of the finished cut. These can be left attached to the counter as installation shims - depends on the exact construction of the top - some have a lip at the front edge, some don't.
Rip the counter top, face up on my table saw using a 80 or 100 tooth blade (10"). Same rules - full speed, slowish feed rate. I would need a helper......
In the unlikely event this did not work out well on a test cut -- I would cut via table saw to about 1/8" outside of my line and finish trim with a shooting-board-guided router using a straight bit.
I suspect I could have cut it in less time than it took me to type this!
Jim
Just like I tell my customers in reply to the question "why would they have done this?"
You can do things slow, you can do things fast, and you can do things half-fast. This is a half-fast job!
Always gets a chuckle :^)
Jim