When I purchase power tools, I ussually like to buy one of 5 brands only:
- DeWalt (Known for its all around performance)
- Bosch (Known for its power, and also its saber saws)
- Porter Cable (Known for its shop tools, esspecialy its routers)
- Milwakee (Known for its reciprocating saws)
- Makita (Purchased when inovations exeed other brands)
I pretty much buy them in that order. There is the occasionalexception, such as Skill’s wormdrive’s (To all sidewinder promoters: I own and use both a worm and sindwinder circular saw. I find that each comes in handy), and of course when buying pneumatic tools, I generally buy Bostitch.
However, I steer clear of home center brands such as Rigid and Ryobi, as well as homeowner brands, such as Craftsman and Black & Decker. I’ve never been very fond of Hitatchi or other off brands either, unless recomended by FHB.
What are your opinions?
–T
Replies
Yeah, I guess I agree, but DeWalt tools always feel clunky and sorta' Fisher-Price to me.
I do have tools from that list, tho'. I think my Makitas last the longest
Forrest
Thank you for your input.-T
DeWalt tools always feel clunky and sorta' Fisher-Price to me.
That, and they don't hold up well. I would put them in the "homeowner" category.
You are aware that Milwaukee tools are made by the same company that makes Rigid and Ryobi.
http://www.ttigroup.com/business/brands.php?PHPSESSID=7b2777261da93a0e88f91d413bca7196
Thank you for the link, although I didn't find Rigid mentioned in it. While I find the link interesting, I am of the opinion that two brands can be made by the same company, and yet vary greatly in quality. For example: DeWalt and Black & Decker.-T
I agree completely that there are differences, the company is just trying to assemble a stable of attractive offerings. I have quite a few Royobi tools, cordless kit, impact driver, corded hammer drill. I probably use them harder than they were ever intended to be used and they have held up quite well. I always thought the Rigid tools were a bit heavy. The Milwaukees are top of the line heavy duty tools. Good luck with you purchase.
please note: ownership does not necessarily alter production. Milwaukee is OWNED by TTI, but still manufactures as it always has...unless someone has moved operations. They MAY or MAY NOT change specs. But it doesn't always mean a change... (example: in retail, Sears bought Lands End. Lands End still functions as it always has...but we are watching!!)"The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
That's as may be, but a few years back I started seeing "made in Taiwan" on some Milwaukee data plates. Maybe that's changed, but I don't pay Milwaukee prices for Chinese goods. I haven't even looked at a Milwaukee tool since then.George Patterson
The last 2 nail guns I've bought were Hitachi. Much better than Bostich or Senco, IMO.
If there's one power tool I would consider buying from Hitachi, it would be a nail gun. It would take some convincing though. What do you prefer about them specifically, over Senco and Bostitch - especially Bostitch?-T
A couple of things with my Hitachi 15 ga. finish gun that I like
it's pretty light weight, it seems durable, it has a little air blast button which is handy for dusting off things. I can get nails for it at my regular yard.
My previous finish guns were 15 yr. old Sencos, so I don't have a lot to compare with. But those old Sencos were HEAVY.
The Hitachi guns seem to do well in all the different tools tests I've read.
My next one will be the Hitachi siding nailer.
Hitachi nailguns rock. I'm pretty impressed with some of their power tools also, except for the stupid colour schemes.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
looking at them wants to make ya go cross eyed...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would try to avoid any 'snobbery' or brand loyalty on general principle. There are many quality tools made by firms that have very limited product lines.
My first version of a tool is often a cheap "Harbor Freight" version. This lets me limit my risk - the tools usually cost about 1/3 of what a 'real' tool costs - while learning the use of the tool.
Such 'hands on' experience is important. First, I can see if the tool is worth having on the truck at all; many has been the clever widget that just didn't carry it's weight.
Second, only by using the tool can you learn what features suit you best. For example, using a cheap angle grinder let me see that, in my use, a paddle switch was a real plus.
Once I have a very clear idea of what I want from the tool, then I start looking for a quality version. I will look at many brands, relying on my vendors - who cater to the trades, rather than homeowners - to carry decent stuff.
Some of my examination might as well be with my eyes closed. I want to know how the tool feels in my hand. Some might have fat handles, or seem poorly balanced, or have the switch in a poor location. I look at the 'special' requirements I have developed ... does it mean anything to me that the tool has a light on it, or that blades can be changed without tools?
Sometimes, I surprise myself. Lately Makita has been doing well ... quite a shock, as Makita had pretty much chased me off a few years back! Other times, tools that are highly acclaimed by others don't impress me.
Thank you for the suggestions.
I am curious though, why not Black & Decker? They can be purchased in any hardware store or home center - even WalMart, as opposed to traveling to a specific store such as Harbor Freight. Is a Harbor Freight jigsaw less expensive or of any more quality than a $25 Black & Decker, or even a cheap model from Skill for that matter?
I'm also curious, what in particular has impressed you about Makita lately?
-T
Edited 8/7/2007 12:54 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
My apologies ... I have simply got in the habit of going to Harbor Freight! Actually, though, HF tends to have a more 'industrial' market; that is, they carry tool types you're not likely to find in the mass merchandisers.
Harbor Freight tools I either use, or have used, include an angle grinder, a portable bandsaw, an SDS roto-hammer, a roto-zip type tool, a jackhammer, and an abrasive cut-off saw. I just haen't noticed those at Wally World. As for Makita ... it's fair to ask for some specifics. I can only speak to three tools, all corded. The AVT "saws-it-all" feels very nose heavy ... but all that weight up front really helps it cut. The saw is very controllable, and is the only one that compares to the Milwaukee product in vibration absorption. The single-hand, tooless blade change can't be beat. Their saber saw has a substantial base (not just stamped tin), good view of the sight line, and has that one-hand tooless blade change. The handle also fit my hand better then the Bosch. Most other makes had really fat handles, by comparison. Finally, the angle grinder -again- fit my hand better than the Metabo I was considering. My choice of grinder was severely restricted by my desire to have a 'paddle' trigger, rather than a switch. I am able to easily operate the paddle, even in gloves, without the 'safety' becoming a real annoyance. It is ironic that I am looking to Makita for corded tools ... since they are best known for the battery powered line!
I focus on the partiuclar tools attributes and not the name brand. I have a chorded Black & Decker industrial screw gun from the early 80s that is an exact match to the Dewalt screw gun that I bought for my screw auto feed. If it isn't exact it's pretty dang close.. Dewalt bought B&D I guess and I still use that B&D screw gun design. Dewalt makes good screw guns but chunky and not as svelte & balanced as the old Makita but I think that's a battery issue (9.6v Vs 18v) which brings more power.
Routers? Only 1 name for me: Bosch.
Sanders? Again only 1 name, Porter Cable. Was using PC sander in the cabinet shops I worked in during HS back in the mid 80s and others through college. Really took abuse and never once saw one fail.
For circ saws I like Milwaukee & Makita but they're sidewinders and some folks won't call that a saw at all (the wormers that is).
Recip saws? Whichever has the most power for the dollar at the time. Right now I'm using a Dewalt but would've preferred the Milwaukee.
SCMS: still using my Hitachi 8.5 from when they 1st came out. It won't die.
Nail guns? I'm a devout follower of Bostitch.
I think sticking with only one brand may get you a snazzy set of matching tools but not the best in performance. If snazzy is what you want, then follow the brand, otherwise look at the individuals to decide the best performance & fit for you.
> Dewalt bought B&D I guess ....Other way 'round. B&D bought DeWalt from AMT back in the '60s. In the late '70s, B&D did a survey with professional carpenters and woodworkers about tool quality. DeWalt was rated number 1, so B&D started trying to find out more about it. Then they discovered they owned it.At the time, DeWalt was making heavy shop tools, mainly radial arm saws. B&D was making three different quality levels of smaller stuff. They rebranded their "professional" line to be DeWalt and killed off the heavy shop tool side of the business over the next 10 years or so.George Patterson
Thanks for refreshing the memory & the correction. I remember the Radial Arms now that you menthion it and thinking I used 1 or 2 while in the cabinet shops.
Same here.
I have a 60's era Black and Decker 10'' RAS still works just fine.
Many of the shops I have been in had OLD Dewalt 12" and bigger RAS's I mean monsters. 5hp 3ph.
They were good tools.
Yeah. I have a '56 DeWalt GWI 12" saw (that works much better with a 10" blade). I've used one of those 5hp "monsters" you describe, and they are impressive. That one shot a 2x4 clean through a sheet metal wall once when someone (not me) tried to rip it with the blade set the wrong way.DeWalt made even heavier saws. 16" was common, and I think the largest was a 22" blade. Levittown was built with a series of 16" DeWalts connected with roller tables. They would gang up a bunch of rafters and cut the bird's mouths with an RAS set at an angle and swinging a huge dado blade. The next saw would cut them to length. And so on.Amazingly safe saw if you know what you're doing.George Patterson
Yeah, we had a 16'' in a shop in Pa. Took about 15 mins for the blade to finally stop after ya switched it off...and WHINE...geeze. They could sing.
We used to keep a piece of 2x2 beside that 5hp job. We would press that against the side of the blade to get the blade to stop in a reasonable length of time.The bearings on my GWI are a bit worn, and it will coast for about 15 minutes if I've got the 12" blade on it. I use the same trick with scrap lumber when I need to get it stopped.George Patterson
I'm still in my 30's, so I don't know the historical side of each tool brand, but I'll give my input on the tools I own now. Keep in mind, I'm living in Japan, so I can't just pick-up US tools at any hardware store.
1. Makita pretty well leads the market over here for circular saws. They make a superlight 7 1/4" circular saw, with a light, soft start, brake, etc. Japanese carpenters don't really use/own table saws, so the circ saw gets used in a lot more applications than one in North America would. I brought 2 Makitas to Calgary last summer and got a lot of great comments on them. Came back to Japan empty handed! Makita also sells these saws for about $200, too bad they aren't in North America. I couldn't believe the Makita circ saws they were selling in Canada....powerful, but just too big, bulky....
2. I like Hitachi's mitre saws. I own 2-3 now. Hitachi's motors seem to have so much more power than Makita. I own a 10" sliding compound Makita, but my Hitachi sees a lot more gametime than my Makita does.
3. My 8" hand-held planer, groove cutter, heavy duty drills - All Makita. Makita hasn't changed the way they make these tools in years. They are still the old silver style, all metal no plastic type, heavy and reliable.
4. Routers- Bosch Colt, plus Bosch 2 1/4" router set. Utility framing router - Makita 3 1/4". I've started to dislike Bosch a little bit after buying the "Colt", its a great size, etc., but some of the options needed to be thought through a little more.
5. Table saw- Bosch for sure, I imported their new table saw/stand a year ago, I have no problems with it whatsoever. Can't get anything like it here in Japan, only Makita sells a benchtop table saw, and its over $1100, not worth it....
6. Air tools probably shouldn't be listed, but I'm going to put them down anyway. I buy only MAX whenever I can. Their framing nailers, in my opinion, are the best (both stick and coil), siding nailers too, plus their brad nailer is leagues away from other guns as far as I'm concerned. That being said, Makita and Hitachi have come out with some really slick looking brad nailers here in Japan, and they are actually more expensive than the MAX model for once. A rigid brad nailer and 1/4" crown stapler made it into my van last year (I bought them at HD in Canada), and even though they have a lot of options (hook for belt, depth adjustment, etc), I don't expect them to last very long.
7. I bought a DeWalt biscuit joiner and some 18V cordless tools. The biscuit joiner has always performed well. My other cordless stuff from DeWalt doesn't really impress me, too much plastic, like toys not tools.
8. I really don't like Ryobi. Professionals here just won't use them. They are cheap, but they just don't last, plus its really hard to get them serviced. You won't find them in hardware stores, just big home centers. I did end up buying a Ryobi 6" jointer last week though, only because Ryobi is the only company in Japan that manufactures a benchtop model.
I'm just about to retire my Makita recip saw. Its the smallest model they sell, I've never been happy with it, it just wasn't powerful enough. I figure I'm going to go for power this time, I'm debating between a Milwaukee 13amp and a Hitachi 13amp. Any suggestions? I'm leaning towards the Hitachi, just because I can get it locally here in Japan, but I've always wanted a Milwaukee...
While I read your post several days ago, I haven't had the opportunity to comment on it until now. I've been working a lot of overtime, and I've been trying to respond to each post in succession.
Japanese carpentry has always interested me. Your post makes me wonder just how similar to the US you build over their. I think I saw a documentary once of Japanese carpenters building skyscrapers out of bamboo sticks, and tying everything together instead of using nails or screws. Is this real, or do you use 2x4s, meal studs, and red iron over their now? Any Daiku san in Japan anymore?
I'd be interested to know if you have any power tools in Japan that aren't typically used in North American carpentry. Something like the "joinery saw with hot glue capacity?" Just hoping, I've read you guys do a lot of intricate joinery.-T
Sorry for my late reply. There are a few housing companies near where I live who build, advertising the policy of using no nails/screws in the frames. I've put together a lot of Japanese joinery houses, and they are pretty impressive, usually perfect, although they are manufactured by computer, so I guess perfection is to be expected. There are a few carpenters around who can do it all by hand/head, and they are the real masters. The problem with Japanese houses is the lack of cross bracing, and they are quite top-heavy. The last big earthquake in Niigata toppled lots of houses/buildings/shrines, all of the "lots of roof" type. Everytime I see those pics on the TV, I'm glad I build with 2x4 technology.
Although I share your interest in Japanese carpentry, I also see all the flaws in their methods as well, for that reason I stick to 2x4 building. There, I make a name for myself. My houses here are basically all 2x4 with materials from the US, and 40% local materials. I have a mix of both Japanese and US/Canadian tools, but since the YEN has decreased so much in value, I've been buying most of my tools here these days. I wish Amazon would ship tools to Japan...
Rgs
Scott S
I remember being asked to review DeWalt tools in about 1990. They had just started coming out with the "yellow" line of tools and my LY rep brought the Dewalt people by my site to test and look over the stuff they were bring out.
I was using a B&D worm drive saw at the time and showed the Dewalt people the "Toe" on the guard that had also been on the Milwaukee worm drive. I told them that unless Dewalt was going to use that same guard design as opposed to the Skil design I wasn't going to ever buy one. You are correct that Dewalt had "The" name in stationary power tools for years, especially radial arm saws."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I was once told that the Decker part of Black and Decker worked for Dewalt, back when power tools were first coming out i the ship yards during WW-I. Dewalt was making drill motors for industrial use, and they kept walking away in peoples lunch boxes. Decker tried to convince Dewalt to start a consumer line of tools, and Dewalt wouldn't gor for it saying there couldn't be enough money in it.
Decker left, teamed up with Black, and started making a consumer line of tools, and eventually ended up buying up Dewalt.
Duncan Black and Alonzo Decker had a machine shop in Baltimore - they teamed up to form the well known brand B&D that moved to Towson Maryland. Black may have had conversations through the years with DeWalt - they were just up the road in Lancaster.
B&D bought Dewalt - basicaaly a radial arm saw manufacturer in the early 60's and promptly rebranded it B&D - sales plumted. They returned the Dewalt logo and minimized the B&D heagonal logo and sales returned. Like many lines B&D allowed to languish, DeWalt faded in the 70's and B&D "parked" the trademark.
Once the "family" retired from B&D, Nolan Archibald took over and started to grow the company to consumer products instead of just tools. In the early 90's, Archibald bought Emhart, a large building components conglonmerate and combined with the recession found themselves in red ink/debt. A few folks suggested taking the 3 B&D tool lines - Industrial, Tradesman and Consumer and merging them to two - Industrial and Consumer. Manufacturing costs were taken out of the two high end lines - worm drive saws slowly disappeared, heavy duty screwguns discontinued, triple gear reduction drills dropped, etc. What you have now are moderate duty machines(compared to continuous duty of the former models) and realtively high prices for the duty rating. But B&D is making money because you have one, possibly two generations who never used really heavy duty machines. And quite frankly, the need for the heavy duty machines has dramitcally diminished.
For me, buying any power tool is an investment - I talk to folks already using them to get their likes/dislikes. I also check rental centers and tool repair shops to see which ones work well and which ones have chronic problems. But alas, I find most crafts today tend to be reactionary - "that looks like a neat tool, think I'll buy it."
Thank you for bringing these insights to the discussion.-T
I would be interested as to more of why you prefer the brands you do, three in particular:
Why do you speak so highly of Bosch routers, and have you had poor experiences with other brands?
Why do you like Milwaukee and Makita sidewinders so much, what do these saws have in common?
"SCMS: still using my Hitachi 8.5 from when they 1st came out. It won't die."
Are you saying that Hitachi was the first to come out with a sliding compound miter saw? I would spend more time considering such a power tool from Hitachi if this were so.-T
Your questions refer to purchase decisions I made over 10+ years ago which gives a lot to the reasons why I bought them in the 1st place. Mostly reputation of durability and performance. Let me see...
Milwaukee had a stellar reputation back then, American made. The Makita was surprise to me, bought it mainly because the handle placement was behind the saw Vs the Milw that the handle had you above the saw. Each has a value. When I was doing a lot of framing the Milw was on the ground near the lumber pile and the Makita was on the roofs. Both saws saw a lot of action, had about 5 years of rest and back at it in my repair business. Both going strong although they're not being as heavily taxed as they used to be but there's no signs of wear in their performance. IIRC the Milw was bought in '88 and the Mak in '89.
Bosch? I've used other peoples routers of various brands and none of them felt as comfortable or confident in my hands. Ease of use and good collets make a big difference. My introduction to routers was sometime in the early 80s with a Craftsman. Looking back it was poorly laid out and difficult to control. Maybe the D-handle on the Bosch sold them to me? I've got a couple of the 1604s and a 2.5hp(?) EVS plunge. All very smooth.. still. They began showing up around '91 when my body started to show signs of wear from framing most of the day and working midnight shift in a former career.
Have absolutely no idea who had the 1st SCMS but when I saw the Hitachi I was pretty impressed. I know machines fairly well and think myself to be a good judge of them. The Hitachi 8.5 felt to be sturdy and smooth as well as balanced and graceful. I've got it set up on a Delta Kickstand (which I think is discontinued) with a permanent ext chord terminated in a 4-way outlet to run a swing arm lamp for lighting the saw, plug in the Bosch inline jig saw for coping trim, plug in a radio & plug in the SCMS. I'm thinking I got the Hitachi in '92 but not sure. It's done miles of trim and still cuts accurately.
Maybe the newer generation of these aren't as good as the ones I have but I don't know. Their strength & longevity haven't given me a reason to be out looking at other tools.
You seem to be a fan of Dewalt but I just don't see them the same way as you do. You're not getting tripped up by their advertising hype are you? What I have of theirs and have used was/is satisfactory but nothing that just made me go Wow! Why does Dewalt rank so high for you?
> Why do you speak so highly of Bosch routers, and have you had poor
> experiences with other brands?I've owned four routers. The first was a Crapsman from the early '80s. 'Nuf said. The second was/is a Bosch 1613EVS. I needed a plunge router, and it was highly rated at the time. My only complaint is that the screws that hold the base plate on strip out easily. I bought a Porter Cable router for my table because the motor detaches from the base easily and I trust PC quality. It has not disappointed me. I recently bought a Bosch Colt for small jobs. I love it. I did not buy any of the extra accessories, so I can't speak to their design.I can get excellent results with any of them when I do my part correctly. For someone else to sell me a router, they'll have to convince me that it can do something the others can't do, or do everything a lot better than what I have.> Why do you like Milwaukee and Makita sidewinders so much, what do
> these saws have in common?I'm not in this group. I've never had a Milwaukee saw, but the company has a fine reputation for quality. I just don't like their prices.I got sold on Makita back in 1976 or so when the company I worked for bought one and none of us "buy American" carpenters could tear it up. Unfortunately, by the time I actually bought one, they had developed an entire line of saws, some of which weren't all that hot. Mine was sort of wobbly - as if the base plate was flimsy. I bought a Porter-Cable and retired the Makita to a panel saw jig. Besides being a fine tool, the PC has the advantage of not requiring you to hold down a button with your thumb in the interests of "safety." I like that.As for sidewinders, I've used geared saws and never liked them enough to buy one. They have certain advantages, but I prefer sidewinders. Using a geared Skilsaw in high summer with the exhaust fan blowing on your hand is enough to make anyone swear off the things.George Patterson
The first thing I've finally learned to look for in a good tool is
"Tech Support"!
I'd have to say from all I've heard that the company IMERC secretly owns ..Bosch has the best tech support.(ok Marty how bout' my new table saw...when will they be ready?...lol)
I had a lot of trouble with one tech support guy from DeWalt but the guy I got after him was absolutly amazing!I ended up with over $500 in free tools from him!
I think if a good company of any nature has a good support team it would go without saying that their tools are worth spending the big bucks on.
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The flip side of your escapade is not NEEDING support after purchase, goes a lot farther in my book.
(G)
yeh...sometimes bitchin' N moanin' actually does get ya somewhere.
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
The value of any support would definitely have to be balanced with the greater value of dependability. However, I find it hard to believe that any company producing inferior products, would dare offer good support along with them.-T
I think you make a good point. I buy a lot of Craftsman hand tools because of there no hassle lifetime warrantee. I could see service being even more important for power tools, not just because they're more expensive if they break, but they're also more complex to use. I must admit, I never thought of support for power tools before.-T
I agree with your top three. I rarely buy Makita and no longer buy Milwaukee. I also buy things like Rigid when I do not expect to need the sort of quality you get from outfits like Bosch. Some of my heavy stuff is Grizzly.
I don't wanna stir the pot on electric tools. On air tools...I would use a Hitachi over Bostich any day!! The exception is porter cable finish and trim nailers and staplers. Yes these are the ones from home cheapo, have NO complaints about em.
I would like to ask you the same question as the last Hitachi promoting poster: What in particular have you found to be so appealing about the Hitachi nailers?
In regards to Porter Cable, while they do sell them at all home centers including 'Home Depot/Cheapo,' I have never considered them to be an inferior tool. I am curious though, why do you prefer them over the main stream air nailer such as Bostitch, Paslode, or Senco?-T
I try to buy the best tools that I can. Brand really has nothing to do with it.
I own 5 or 6 Ridgid power tools, and I can tell you that most of them are as good(probably better) than any of the brands you have listed.
The only other brand I would add to your list is Hilti. Great stuff, but not cheap.
It's not too late, it's never too late.
Thank you for your input. I like to buy the best also. That's why I mentioned several brands as opposed to just one or two. For me however, brand does have something to do with it though. If I would've had the same experience as you've had with Rigid (or if I had heard the same thing you said about them from many others also), I would really look close at Rigid brand power tools before buying anything else.
In my humble opinion, buying brand name tools isn't simply buying a name, it's buying a reputation - a reputation of an unwritten guarantee that you're making a good investment.
-T
Edited 8/7/2007 2:01 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
Another post said that DeWalt is somewhat "Fisher-Price" and I agree 100%. Any DeWalt (at least the modern yellow stuff) is not really high-quality tools. The tool guy that came around the place I used to work always said that he had a huge bin of busted DeWalt tools and very little problems with most any other brand.
It's all mixed up now anyway, with various company buyouts. My favorite tools are Hitachi and Ryobi right now. The Ryobi ONE+ system is great because if you have very low expectations for them, they work extremely well, and are pretty bulletproof. Battery life isn't great, but at the price, well..... they're OK. I've busted a Bosch cordless drill and my Bosch SCMS is on it's last legs, and I'm no longer in awe of Bosch tools anymore. The SCMS will likely be replaced by a Hitachi 10" slider. I have always heard great things about the newer Makita tools, but I'm used to the old Makita cordless stuff with the big long stick batteries in the handle, and still have not gotten over the sigma of using that junk. The only Makita tool I have is the big "portable" 12-1/2" beam planer, and that's just a beast. I'm hunting for a "cheap" 16" beam saw an d a used chain mortiser if anybody's got something like that floating around....
With all do respect, I find your experience with DeWalt most bizarre. In regards to the "tool guy's" experience, I have to wonder if he repaired more DeWalts simply because that's what most everybody only purchased.
It is true, though, that you're the second person to deem Dewalt as "Fisher-Price." What in particular strikes you as being so cheap about DeWalt? Surely it must be more than their yellow color.
I have heard complaints about DeWalt's switches being to fragile, although I personally have never had a problem with them in any of the dozens of Dewalt tools I've used. I've usually just attributed it to my coworkers carelessness, but perhaps there's something to it. Is this what you're referring to, or is there something more?
Your unusually high recommendation of Ryobi makes me wonder if your opinion is bases on actual tool quality, or if you and your crew are unusually hard on your tools, and you simply find it more cost effective to buy inexpensive ones. Is this so?
Ryobi is also blue, which is the opposite of the cheap looking color yellow. I find myself avoiding Hitachi unless their product is definitely the best, simply because I find them to be such an artsy eyesore. This eyesore line of reasoning doesn't apply to any of your suggestions regarding Dewalt vs. Ryobi does it?-T
First of all, I'm not "in the trades" as much as I buy this stuff all the time for myself or a crew to use. But I have been there, in the past, and I try not to buy junk. I'm of the "buy once, cry once" mentality.
With that said - ten or twelve years ago, the yellow DeWalt tools were being pushed very heavily by the local traveling tool sales guy, partially because they were relatively new on the market and because they were cheaper (and by that I mean less expensive) than comparable tools by other manufacturers. This salesman carried about anything you could hope to have - full lines of Milwaukee, Bosch, Makita, Hitachi, Hilti, and even some Metabo and AEG stuff. Nevertheless, my boss, being the cheap bastid that he was (is), decided that the DeWalt stuff was what the crews should have. So we bought mostly cordless drills, circular saws and sawzalls, with the odd router (we did Corian fab) and miter saw thrown in.
Inside of six months, ALL, and I mean ALL of the cordless drills and sawzalls were in the shop in a big plastic barrel. Dead. Busted chucks, broken housings, triggers and switches gone bad, you name it, it died. A few of the circular saws bit it as well, and one of the routers literally caught fire in the shop. The only thing that survived intact was the big 12" miter saw, and only because it was kept in the boss' office and signed out for use in the shop. So if it died, we knew who the culprit was - it never visited a job site.
As a result of this, the entire crew, disgusted with DeWalt, went back to using Milwaukee and Makita, and the salesman took the barrel 'o yeller junk with him the next time he showed up. I bought a Hitachi angle grinder and a Bosch drill from him and I'm still using both with no problems. The grinder, especially, gets abused but is still running perfectly.
Color/style etc. is never an issue. I have simply been disgusted with DeWalt quality. Any hopes of that improving with the Black and Decker ownership is extreme unsubstantiated optimism. Hitachi's tool design people need to get off whatever drugs they're on, but it doesn't extend to the quality. My first choice nowadays for any high-quality tool is Hitachi - I can live with the color.
As for Ryobi - I'd avoided it in the past simply because it seemed to be on par with Craftsman/Black and Decker/Skil and other low-end/department store/homeowner type plasticky crap (no offense to the occasional quality tool that those particular manufacturers occasionally spit out). Home Depot had just opened, I needed a quick and easy way to cut ICF blocks for a foundation, and the Ryobi 18V sawzall was convenient. I figured it would last until I was done and then I could toss it. Well, it's still alive, underpowered and somewhat awkwardly designed, but it works for what I need it to. I have a Milwaukee sawzall if I need some brute work done. I've since bought several more of Ryobi's ONE+ line for various jobs, knowing full well that they're being bought on a "disposable" basis, and if they die, I won't worry too much. I keep the sawzall in the truck with a pruning blade for survey work, it's convenient; and a hammer drill for setting nails or pins in rock or concrete in the field. So far, so good.
You are young yet, so sit back and learn a bit. I assume you started this wanting discussion to learn from....
deWalt is an old name that B&D bought up long time ago. When they realized that their won rep was failing for professional tools after their spread into HO appliances and kitchen gadgets, they decided to resurrect the name with a whole new company. They brought in new Wall street mangaers, fifth avenue marketing people, and a whole new young engineering dept fresh out of school to supplement a couple of old guy ready to retire after their brains got sucked out.The result was some halfway decent tools that were not time-tested so they have occasionally disappointing results. They design and market to anticipted market demand so they are often first out with a certain class of tool, but often not the best.
Bosch brought to the market historic german engineering and innovation that was at one time considered overproiced in the American marketplace, so they married Skil who, like B&D had tried too hard to market to the HO weekenderhandyman and lost quality in thne process. The new Skil-Bosch factory in Caroline toook advantage of the lower pay rates at that time in the southern US, and market share increased. I love bosch tools and still remember all the Skil tools that failed me back in the seventies.
Porter-Cable has almost always made some good tools, and has a great fan club for their routers, sanders, and recip saws. they were combined with Delta and the whole outfit is now owned by the same consortium that owns half the power tool makers in the world. Unfortunately, this means that most tools are now made in whatever host company can offer the best financial enviroment for the corporation. Whether this is good or bad depends on the quality control employed by the company management, and the design/engineering input. PC still seems to do well at that. Even back in the eighties, a lot of large shop Delta tools were being made in Taiwan, but Delta did a far better job of oversight than many other companies having tools cast and assembled there.
Milwaukee was one of the last to let manufacturing leave our shores. They stil seem to have some of the strongest products out there, especially in the drills, tec guns and circ saws. I have a hard time commenting whether they have allowed quality to slip yet or not, because most of my Milwaukee tools are 20-30 years old and have outlasted their competitors and don't need replacement yet. Mil is still one of the first choices I look at when thinking of another tool, but they seem slow to market with new innovations which is a large part of what drives the tool market.
Makita I personally dislike overall, tho they have improved over the last thirty years. They gained huge market share back in the seventies by floor-plan sales rther than quality. What this means is that when a retialer is deciding whether to stock his shelves with this brand or that brand, he is likely to devote a lot of shjelf space to the Makita line of tools, because they would offer to place the tools on the shelf for him for 90-120 days before that retailer would need to pay for them. He could make a profit off the Makita without investing his own money in product to stock. So the average carpenter walking in to replace thesaw he just dropped two stories or that wore out would be more likely to see a Makita than any othjer brand.
They do have strong motors, to be sure, but they were far louder than others for years, had cheap cords that needed replacement every 6-12 months, and clunky switches. There was no tool in the world that NEEDED soft start switch technology more than Makita because of the torque that they threw into destroying your wrist every time they started up. It was not innovation, but floor plan sales that got them up and running in this country. They have improived a lot since then, but I have never thought of them as being esspecially innovative. Maybe you have a different perspective from yoiur generation...
I am curious why you would consider Hitachi an "off-brand"?
They are one of the largest tool and equipment manufacturers in the world and if you are looking for innovation, they have been in the forefront with portable nbechtop tools. Also take a look at the history of sliding cchop saws. Hitachi is the great grandaddy! I know that you were probably thinking of the motorized hand tols, but their pneumatic air guns are amoung the best. There are few framers in the world who would criticise the Hiachi framing gun and probably some who even take theirs to bed with them!
;)
We agree on the Ryobi thopugh. They have made a couple of good tools, but overall, a professional cannot afford Ryobi, no matter how cheap they are, because down time costs so much
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Bosch really came into the US market when it purchased the Stanley power tool division in the late 70's. The North Carolina plant was Stanley's; later as you note they formed a working relationship with Skil - who was owned by Emerson, who also made a number of better quality Sears tools. Ultimately the US unit became Skil-Bosch with a win-win for both tool companies.
It should be noted that the last of the true industrial duty machines made by Porter Cable are now discontinued by their corporate owners, Black & Decker. These include Porter Cable's "first born", the 503 worm drive belt sander, the 548 worm drive bayonet saw and the extra heavy duty laminate trimmer (can't remember the number). It's probably not long before the 314 worm drive trim saw disappears. And the reason for much of the disappearance is not too many folks know about or want to pay the traiff for traditional heavy duty machines.
Got to put my two cents in on tools.....
Former tool and die maker, here's my experience with whats quality tools.
Fit and finish of molded parts of all tools about the same.
Power> You get what you pay for, more copper windings=more money
American made> Gives us jobs..... why I'm a carpenter now and not a tool and die maker
Makita> Drills make a sweet smell when overloaded
Milwaulkee > Drill will snap your hand off when overloaded
Dewalt> Cordless drill smoked both batteries that came with it when overloaded but still WORK??
Milwaulkee> Super sawsall, probably the most abused tool I've ever had and only problem ever had is switch sticks, rap with something right by the switch , works perfect. Very little vibration with this tool, perfect for surgery
Porter Cable> Probably the best wood tool manufactureing company around IMO . Could use some improvement on ergonomics on some of their low end tools.
Ryobi> Junk,Junk,Junk
Black and Decker> Low quality bearings or (bushings)
Bostich> Switch likes to stick on my coil framing nailer, oh well 3 nails are better than one!
See Frank...Ya missed the part about the little nuances that make a tool, not just a tool.
I stand in defiance ( albeit in my singularity() ': that quality or function has NO name in the hands.
Do a double blind test, I DARE ya.
Your perception of excellence, is just a matter of preconcieved notions ( as is mine)..what is smoothe?
Now ya want user friendly, noise, dust, inherent wisdom, robotics, or loss of the soul that is actually holding that tool?
Ther in lies the crux..when do ya sell you, so ya can save some time, to get to you?
I'll bet, and I mean large sum ( for the initiated) that , given a hunk of foam , a piece of sunday paper and the most impossibly tawdray wood, you will unknowingly . impart part of you, just by the mere action of attempt.
I'll wait,
"and the extra heavy duty laminate trimmer (can't remember the number). " It's the 310 and they are still made:http://www.toolbarn.com/product/portercable/310/I have one and it is a great tool because you can fine adjust the height so easy.
Edited 8/12/2007 10:48 am ET by reinvent
Yes - after writng the thread, I double checked the Porter Cable web site and still the 310 is not listed. But it does show up in a number of tool distributors web sites as available. Because of its cost to manufacture, I still suspect B&D has planned for this model to eventually be discontinued - it's a pattern established long ago by B&D for many product lines (but I hope I'm wrong!).
310 ...Best trimmer currently available. Haven't tried the Colt, though! Have mine dedicated for hanging doors (bosch hinge template)."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
Yes, innovation has something to do with my preference for DeWalt. For example: Their circular with break. To many carpenters a break on a saw is meaningless. To a carpenter as safety conscious as I am though (one who doesn't like to set the saw down while the blade is still turning), a break translates into one less hassle and more speed. DeWalt's saw was also listed second only to Milwaukee's in Consumer's Report, and when Consumer's Report came out with an article about DeWalt's saw shortly after that, I thought it really should've come in first. Firsthand experience tells me, it's a nice saw to own.
I think that the quality of the Black & Decker line has continually gone down (with the exception of a very slight turn for the better only recently), and the quality of the DeWalt line has continually gone up over the years. This is my guess as to why several posters (probably all from a much older generation) speak poorly of DeWalt. I think they're thinking of tools that were manufactured decades ago.
I don't necessarily think that DeWalt is the best, but I do think it's the safest purchase. For example, I'm also fond of Bosch power tools. A month or so ago I needed a new drywall screw gun. The Bosch SG45M (I call it the Bosch Botch) caught my eye: An awkwardly large trigger, but 7.0 amps, a very comfortable grip in the palm of my hand, lightweight, and a pop-off-cone that never fell off but could be popped off as smooth as butter. I thought the first one I bought was simply a fluke when small sparks flew out of the tip whenever I screwed drywall to a metal frame. However, after I exchanged it for a second one that gave me an electric shock twice in one day, I returned the piece of junk and bought myself a 6.3 amp DeWalt. The DeWalt isn't as nice as the Bosch, but it's dependable - never shocked me once.
No, DeWalt is not necessarily the best, but if I'm not sure which tool to buy, I know that DeWalt will give me the best odds of value balanced with quality.
I don't know if I would consider the Skil wormdrive to be the best either. I have a lot of experience with it though from the union companies that I've worked for - they almost always used Skil. Perhaps this is because Skil invented the circular saw. While I do believe in buying the best tool, I also think that if two brands tied on a certain tool, I would reward the inventor and purchase theirs. In any case, when I started working for myself and found myself also needing a wormdrive to cut rafter tales, I also just happened to see the Skil featured on the 25th anniversary issue for that very purpose. I didn't have time to special order something, but my experience with the Skil convinced me that it would be a safe purchase.
I'm surprised that you find Milwaukee slow at innovation. The Carpenter magazine reported them as being the first to come out with lithium-ion technology. Last time I used one of their drywall screw guns though, I was less than impressed.
About seven years ago I was cutting about a hundred door plates in a retirement home's frame. The company I was working for had two reciprocating saws; a DeWalt and the Milwaukee Sawzall. Half the plates were treated lumber, so it didn't take long to see that the DeWalt cut like a hot knife through butter in comparison to the Milwaukee. Of course, you could also see, that the DeWalt was newer than the Milwaukee.
Although I have a DeWalt reciprocating saw, after reading the last Fine Homebuilding article on reciprocating saws, I think I would buy a Milwaukee if I was going to buy one right now.
I don't find Makita as especially innovative either, my point was simply that it would take an innovation for me to buy a Makita as opposed to the other brands I mentioned. I remember flipping through catalogs a couple years ago though, looking for a cordless power tool set. I did notice that Makita offered some nice options that the other manufacturers did not, although I no longer remember what they were. I do remember that Makita didn't offer those same options in as big of a set as I wanted, so I ended up going with DeWalt.
The owner of the company I work for now (once I realized I needed time to improve my business skills if I was going to make money running a legitimate business, I went back to work for someone else) owns a new Makita sidewinder, very lightweight. One of my coworkers bought one soon after trying it. Lightweight is a large consideration when buying a sidewinder, and Makita may very well make the lightest of reasonable quality.
In regards to Hitachi, I referred to them as an off brand because I didn't see them having the long established reputation of dependability that the other main stream brands do. Perhaps the time has come were they can be considered main stream also.
The other thing that turns me away from Hitachi, is the eyesore factor I mentioned earlier in this thread. I've also found some of them to be poorly designed. For example, when I was looking for that screw gun I mentioned, I found their's to be powerful, but rather big and bulky - uncomfortable in the hand. The worst of it, though, was that the cone was unable to pop-off, you had to twist it a hundred times to get it to unscrew instead. Neither I, nor my employer, can afford that amount of downtime. Perhaps if I knew more about Hitachi's nailers, I could be sold on those.
Thanks for your insights.-T
This has turned into a darn good thread here. Let me reply to some of your omments to me and then try to remember some thoguhts I've had while reading you replies to others above.First, Consumers reports is one of my least respected sources. I have seen tons of bad information come from them because they have to many college students doing htheir evaluations instead of the kind of [people who actually are familiar with using hte types of products they consider.but that same youth segment is who is designing the Dewalt tool line now , so oi can see the links in your yothful thinking....I are nothing for a brake one way or the other. The brake on my 12" DW chop saw was dead and gone a month after I started using the saw.
And that is far from the only thing I have had break down from DW. When I first bought their tablesaw, ( I always hated having the power switch right near the lock for the fence - tooo easy to hit the power on when you have fingers or tape measure in the wrong place) The threads stripped right off the arbor the first time I changed the blade. They made good by changing the whle motor assembly for me, but it cost me two trips to their recommended tool repair shop, one to drop odff and one to pick up. This gets expensive when you live on an island!
Then a couple years later the arbor nut exploded in my face one early morning when I hit the power switch . No load on it at all, and the ripping the day before was all light 1x8 pine.
That is wen I worked my way up the phone tree and leaarned some about DW talking with one of their engineers. t
he saw had been brought to market my the front office guys before the engoineers were happy with it and were still refining things. He was pissed at the suits for their attitude tht it was time to make profit on the R&D and fix things later if they broke.I think that same atitude is why they had so many recalls for batteries and battery chargers for starting fires. They don't seem to realize that a professional buys a tool because they need to depend on it.I had to change the bushing on my hop saw too to keep it from wobbling the bade through a cut. According to that same engineer, that was cheap metal paushed by the profit minded front office, and same thing caused my threads to strip off the arbor.Are you statring to see a consistancy of problems and cause/effect relationship? I really don't expect to be buying any more DW tools. I have gotten my money's worth out of them, but not in ways that made me proud or feel safe with them. I think you are wrong about the time sequence. The previous generation of DW tooling was quite good, built by a generation of men who respected their tools at least as much as the bottom line and depended on the tools reputation to sll it rather than a spiffy marketing campaign to suck buyers in.Overall, the balance of value and quality is acceptable, but I set higher staandards than mere acceptable. One of those is dependable.You mention drywall screw guns as one of your measuring sticks. A simple drive motor with aclutch is one of the easier tools to design, build and market, so they all make them fairly cheap, knowing they will be rode hard and put away wet and replaced regularly.. It just isn't a tool that I would use to measure a company by, but that said, I have three milwaukee screw and tec drivers that are close to or over thoirty years old and still driving. I also have a PC. I like PC for a gfreatr amny tools, but their driver is not my favorite by a long shot. innovation - don't measure Milwaukee by the LI first to market. All the tool makers were working on that and they all knew each other were headed that way. not innovative about being first in the same race. And they had to leapfrog themselves to improve theitr own sawsall after everybody else had eclipsed them in stroke length, orbital action, and power. Once they did it, the did it well tho! The MIL is one of the fasster more powerful, smoothest cutting sawsalls you can find. On my jobs, you can find four Porter Cable recip saws for the three of us. We do a lot of heavy demo, up to 8x12 beams, and these things have outworked and out lasted several other brands that couldn't keep the pace. Some examples of what I consider innovative would be these:
The Boscch plunge action and orbital jigsaw.
The Bosch softstart and good control for their big pluge router
The Porter cable 12V cordless drill/driver - in it's time, ancient now, the rare earth magnet motror improved efficiency to where you could drive 30% more screws or holes than any comparable drill.
The DW rack and pinion fence system on the table saw.
The Paslode gas operated hoseless nail guns ( even if half of the first generation were real lemons...)I don't understand the importance of light weight for a framing circ saw except when you are hanging off a staging cutting rafter tails. For that a light eight saw is handy. But one of my favorite sidewinders ever was a Miller's falls that weighed slightly over tenpounds. If it wer still possible to get parts ( company no longer exists as a small tool outfit) I would still be using it.I think your comments on Hitachi shows your own lack of familiarity more thjan any problem the company. It has bneen around practicaly forever and has an excellent reputation. Maybe your local area just doesn't have many retailers carrying them.
They made the first sliding mitre saw and did it very well. For years, when there was a choce between it and the makita, the DW, or the old Rockwell, that Hitachi was the saw everyone wanted to use for accurtate, smooth, powerful cuts.
They were first to build a circ saw with a magnesium shoe plate ( for you who likes light weight tools) That was hard to tweak out of right with the blkade and arbor. I don't know if you got an answer omn the Hitachi framing nailer ... The reasons they are loved is they produce more power than almost any other framer for shooting through engineeered lumber like LVLs. ( ther is a Bostich almost as powerful, and the Paslode pneumatic is about equal, and the Max is right up there too)
And it has a reputation of NEVER needing food, water, or sex.
Well, it never seems to break down is what I meant. maynbe their new ugly colour scheme is an attempt to get more sex...I agree the new colors and such is as ugly as they come.I gotta go read more now. You've got me all typed out.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Consumer reports lost me as a customer when they rated bikes on an ease of ridability scale! Yikes....
As far as powertool purchases for me, I tend to pick tools that seem to be well liked hear on BT and with a few general contractors whose opinions I respect,
all my small nail guns are hitachi, and I have never had a jam, misfire or any other bad experience, my framer is a Max which was expensive and works so well..
I have mixed feelings about rigid tools, I had a bad experience with the framing gun, liked the table saw (but it did not have a soft start) and love the right angle impact driver, but the battery on that seems worse than the battery on my dell.
I started many moons ago with a dewalt 18 volt nicad kit, and liked the kit, but the batteries didnt seem to last. Then I picked up a makita impact driver, and suddenly all my cordless is makita, Makita seems to have taken a huge amount of time to think about ergonomics and how the tool is going to sit in the operators hand.
I do think the dewalt 705 is a sweet saw, and I love my dewalt router, but I have never used it for production work.
It seems to me that each company has a tool that they do way better than anyone else, and it takes research to find it... Here is my list (my own non expert opinion) of the tools I would rebuy, same brand, if they ever where lost
Finish Nailers: Hitachi
Pinner: Cadex (or at least that is my current object of affection)
Palm Router Bosch Colt
Sander Porter Cable Belt, ROS no opinion, just make it hook and loop, have the 6inch ridgid and it is ok.
Cordless Makita LiON
Sawzall Milwaukee
Corded Big Drill Milwaukee
Circ Saw Makita
Miter Saw Dewalt
Framing Gun Max
Jig saw, own festool, would replace with bosch
multimaster... fien...
jmmmm
Hey, Jeff
why would you replace the Festool jigsaw with the Bosch? Have you had a problem with it?
I've got the Festool, which replaced an older Bosch. I needed a saw that would keep a 90 degree angle when cutting thicker timbers, and the Festool does that easily with the right blade. The Bosch seemed to wander a bit, no matter what I tried.
Shep, I think the festool blades are great, but I think my old 1587 has way more power and gusto, and I wonder if the 1590 VSK eliminates the wandering blade action.... I also like how the bosch has the tooless foot adjustment. not that I am giving the festo up, but, I guess I hoped for more...
jmmmm
The brake on my 12" DW chop saw was dead and gone a month after I started using the saw.<<mine too
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I will break down the ultimate tool list for beginners and general contractors based upon m experience. (I once was deluded into having all of my tools match in color also...)
Drills (corded or cordless) - DeWalt
Reciprocating Saws - Porter Cable
Sanders (orbital or palm) - Porter Cable, DeWalt, Bosch (all pretty much the same; i.e. DeWalt is good fiord timely parts replacement.
Miter Saws - DeWalt (New sliding compound has some issues)
Hand Planers - Bosch or old Porter Cable
Circular Saws - DeWalt, Makita, Bosch (All personal preference based upon features)
Framing Saws - Skill Wormdrive
Jointers (portable) - Delta 6"
Biscuit Jointers - Lamello (if you can afford it) otherwise, Porter Cable
Pneumatic Nailers - Paslode (framing, finish and 18 gauge)
Portable Table Saw - Bosch
Routers - Porter Cable
Please respond with any I have forgotten.
Welcome to BT. You can spend hours here just reading and learning. If this wasn't available, I dunno how well I would have done building my new house.
For your tool list - the "ultimate" tool list varies widely with the user. I, and many others, would probably disagree with many of your choices. A few more would be nodding their heads and saying, "yeah, that's good stuff, man." Experience is very helpful but each manufacturer tosses out a pig now and then (read the "worst tool you ever owned" thread sometime).
My list differs widely from yours:
Drills (corded or cordless) - whatever fits my hand best. Currently Hitachi, Bosch, Ryobi and Milwaukee. I like the Milwaukee best.
Reciprocating Saws - Milwaukee
Sanders (orbital or palm) - Ridgid. I have two Bosch and they vibrate excessively. The Ridgid is smooooooth.
Miter Saws - Bosch or Hitachi.
Hand Plane[r]s - Stanley, Sargent, old Craftsman, Keen Kutter, Lie-Nielsen
Circular Saws - Hitachi C7SB2 - great saw with a brake.
Framing Saws - don't need one
Jointers (portable) - nope, see hand planes above. I have a Grizzly 8" in my woodshop.
Biscuit Jointers - worthless
Pneumatic Nailers - have Porter Cable and Bostitch, prefer Bostitch. If I needed a new one I'd look at Hitachi or Max.
Portable Table Saw - don't have one.
Routers - Bosch, but there's some other good ones (Milwaukee and Hitachi)
BTW...
Drills corded... Milwaukee...
Drills cordless... Bosch, Panasonic...
Reciprocating Saws.. Milwaukee...
Sanders (orbital or palm) - Bosch, Stanley, Milwaukee, old PC...
Miter Saws - Bosch and Milwaukee...
Hand Planes - Stanley, old Record, Lie-Nielsen...
Hand planes - electric - Bosch... old PC...
Circular Saws - very old Milwaukee...
Framing Saws - Skill and Milwaukee...
Jointers (portable) - Boise Crane...
Biscuit Jointers - PC...
Pneumatic Nailers - have Bostitch, and old Senco...
Portable Table Saw - Bosch...
Routers - Bosch, Ingersol Rand...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Sliding table saws...Altendorf
Wide belt sanders....SCMI
Shapers...SCMI
Tablesaws...Tannewitz
everything else, shove it into a Weinig 4 head.
Hey, you said if you forgot any(G)
Now yer talkin! Thats the stuff.
I miss the days...
well..cept for a guy getting a kickback from the Tannewitz saw. It was 10 HP 20" blade..the table moved up and down, not the carriage asmbly.
He was doing something way wrong, and the 5"x5"x5' billet of Hard maple laminated with Morado got away from him, and BOOM..he was launched 20 feet back into the wall. And the SCMI shaper. Not used at the time.
We got to him expecting gore ( no, not Al, just guts) and he was shook up pretty good and in shock, but no sign of immmenient death. Larry had on a coverall type suit ( the shop was hard to heat) and Levis and longie Johnnies and BVDs ..we got him down and stipped them off while some one waited to seee if 911 was needed..he was remakably OK. For being driven like a pile driver in the hip by a chunk of wood that weighed close to 40lbs at 100 mph.
Upon getting his layers peeled off, we saw that the rivet of the Levi's was buried in his hip bone point..yikes. The problem was the stuff he wore was embedded in that hole..bits of fabric, and I think a fob from a pocket watch or a keychain , Gold, being inert, but still the denim and stuff looked ugly..all festooned around the red bud of the impact crater.
Boy howdy, did I respect that saw after seeing that first hand...
Had a kickback from my 1-1/2 HP Delta contractor's saw today
( don't ask, I was doing something stupid)
I got hit in the stomach with the wood. It hurt!
I can't imagine how that 10 HP saw would have felt
Be well, with that.
I have the same saw and got hit in the gut. I was crosscutting a short piece of 5/4 cherry with a rip blade and it kicked the piece right back at me. Cut through skin but mostly just scared the crap out of me. It forever changed the way I operate the saw. Glad you're ok.
Had a kickback from my 1-1/2 HP Delta contractor's saw today<<Had that happen on a 5hp Powermatic I have years ago...cept the 1/2" piece flew back and just grazed my arm leaving a gash and proceeded right through the sheetrock wall behind me like a bullet through tissue paper.
That was all I needed to change the way I used tools after that.Makes the Red Ryder BB gun your Mom said would poke your eye out look like baby stuff...lol
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I got a kickback from my 10" Grizzly once. I still have a bump about the size of a pinto bean on one of my ribs.George Patterson
I was hoping that some of you old timers could help me fill in the blanks on this list invention dates I've made up. Please also let me know if there's anything that looks incorrect, or especially if you know of something that could be added.
Portable Drill: Fein 1895<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Hammer Drill: Metabo 1957<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Screw Gun? ? ?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Worm drive: Skill 1924<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sidewinder: Porter-Cable 1928<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Jig Saw: Bosch 1947<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Reciprocating Saw: <!----><!----><!---->Milwaukee<!----><!----> 1952<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Portable Belt Sander: Porter-Cable: 1926<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Oscillating Sander: ? ?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Portable Angle Grinder: Flex 1954<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Electric Random Orbit Sander: Porter-Cable 1989<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Portable Router: ? Bought by Porter-Cable ?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Plunge Router: Elu Bought by DeWalt 194?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Power Miter Saw: Rockwell 1964<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Compound Miter Saw: ? ?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sliding Compound Miter Saw: <!----><!---->Hitachi<!----><!----> 1988<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Portable Plate Biscuit Joiner: Lamello 1968
Coil Nailer: Bostitch 1965
Pneumatic Nailer (Framing): Paslode 1959<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Cordless Nailer (Framing): Paslode 1986
Cordless Finish Nailer: Paslode 1991
-T
Edited 8/14/2007 12:47 am by JourneymanCarpenterT
Edited 8/25/2007 12:23 am by JourneymanCarpenterT
Pleas note: You must click on "View Full Message" to see the complete list above.-T
Pleas note: You must click on "View Full Message" to see the complete list above.<<Hey...you..just get to work...lol
"the most amazing buddhist prayer song I have ever heard during my trip through the hidden mystique countries like Nepal and India. I've heard it playing everywhere in Kathmandu - buses, ashrams, hotels,streets, etc... "author unknown
how it sounds^-->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2shskL0AYuE
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I've tried to reply to this four times. I give up.George Patterson
"I've tried to reply to this four times. I give up."
Hugh??-T
I would copy the text in, start typing a reply under each line, get a couple of lines down, and my reply would disappear and I'd be back at the main screen again. Screw it.George Patterson
type off line...
copy and paste...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Worked like a charm. Thanks.
George Patterson
The first SCMS I bought was the delta sawbuck. It came complete with stand,
support, wheels, and awkwardness. It reputedly fit through a standard door
opening . I still use it but don't like to move it more than once every two
years or so. The hitachi was the next SCMS we bought (one of my employees
actually) . I suggested he buy it instead of the makita? because the makita
only slid on one rail which seemed like a bad design and has since been
abandoned, obviously.
I would suggest that you also post this Q at Knot's and here:
http://toolmonger.com/2007/02/
> Portable Drill: Fein 1895
I have a Chines model (GMC?) bought at Lowes a few years ago for about $85. I'm quite satisfied with it. I've had a Makita and a Chicago; both died fairly rapidly. > Hammer Drill: Metabo 1957
I'm on my second Skil. They cost me about $35 and last several years. Then the front bearing starts wobbling and I throw them away and get another.> Screw Gun? ? ?
I'm on my second Makita. They last about 10 years, which is good enough for me.
> Worm drive: Skill 1924
Don't own one. I used several Skil models when I worked in Atlanta. I don't like the torque or the fact that the exhaust fan blows directly on my hand. That's not good when the temp is around the century mark. > Sidewinder: Porter-Cable 1928
I have two Porter-Cable sidewinders. One is a lefty, which comes in handy for ripping stuff and certain plywood cuts. > Jig Saw: Bosch 1947
I've got a Crapsman. I really need what you have! The Bosch is on my xmas list. > Reciprocating Saw: Milwaukee 1952
Makita. Bought about 1990. Works great. > Portable Belt Sander: Porter-Cable: 1926
I have a 21" or 23" Ryobi that works well and is well designed. The body is hardly wider than the belt, so it gets into about any space. I also have a larger B&D that I almost never use since I got the Ryobi. I have my eye on the new PC 371K. That looks neat. > Oscillating Sander: ? ?
No gots. > Portable Angle Grinder: Flex 1954
No gots. > Electric Random Orbit Sander: Porter-Cable 1989
I had a B&D, but it just died. I will not buy another B&D for this. > Portable Router: ? Bought by Porter-Cable ?
Bosch Colt. > Plunge Router: Elu Bought by DeWalt 194?
Bosch 1613EVS. > Power Miter Saw: Rockwell 1964
I have an old Delta. I don't use it since I got my CMS. > Compound Miter Saw: ? ?
DeWalt 10". The one that only weighs 32 pounds. I have no complaints. > Sliding Compound Miter Saw: Hitachi 1988
No gots.> Portable Plate Biscuit Joiner: Lamello 1968
An inexpensive Ryobi. It's not big enough. > Coil Nailer: Bostitch 1965
No gots. > Pneumatic Nailer (Framing): Paslode 1959
No gots. > Cordless Nailer (Framing): Paslode 1986
No gots. > Cordless Finish Nailer: Paslode 1991
Mine isn't cordless, but I have a B&D 18 gauge electric nailer. It leaves "pecker marks" on pine and doesn't sink the nails on hard woods. It's good enough for paint-grade work.
George Patterson
Yowsah!A couple weeks ago, I was ripping a 1-1/2" x 1/2" Azec piece, maybe 24" long. Learned that floppy stuff needs more hold down. I was using a push stick, but it got whipped off the saw and past me. I turned around to look for it and found it forty feet away, out in the street.When I bent down to pick it up, I found out I was all sore around my abdomen - hadn't felt that yet.I looked in under my shirt and found a red welt reaching from front to back. The flex of the piece had let it wrap around me as it hit and left a welt like I had been whipped.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep. I have a hole in one of my walls put there by a 2x4 I was trying to rip with my radial arm saw (before I installed anti-kickback fingers). All things considered, I think the RAS is a safer saw - that bump on my ribs has been there over 10 years. The hole has only been there 3 years, and I can always patch that! :-)George Patterson
The waters get pretty muddy here with brands and brand loyalty. I would avoid blanket loyalty as there is no point to it. I also think 1/2 the experience is luck. Some might feel that Makita is cheap Japanese Garbage, But yet I have had nothing but positive experiences with my stuff. (plus, alot of Makita tools are made in Buford, Ga.)I have a Ridgid Hammer drill that is actually made by Metabo.(they make high end tools) My 2 craftsman industrial recip.saws are of dewalt lineage. There are also going to be some tools that just will not be seeing alot of use and paying top dollar does not make sense.The Craftsman wormdrive is actually made by Skil. Remember, Craftsman is not a manufacturer-they are a retailer. You can trace the manufacturer of any cratsman tool by its model number(there have been links in this board to show who makes what for craftsman.)
I would look at the age of the tool as well-sometimes older is better. Case in point is the old Black and Decker circ. saws that are praised by many here. Milwaukees older hammer drills are better than the new offerings any day. The new Ridgid hammer drill is a POS from what I hear. Black and Decker and Craftsman made great tools under the industrial series moniker. You can get these for a song on E-bay. Look at flea markets for great deals on old tools. I recently found a guy had an old porter cable and milwaukee recip saw, 25 dollars each. Craftsman worm drive saw was 35 dollars.
Hitachi air tools are consistently rated well. I have 3 Hitachi guns that I feel are great.
Bottom line on buying tools- Buy with your head, not your heart. Do research here, on Amazon, E-pinions, tools of the trade(a FREE magazine to those in the trades with a great website that tests tools and compares major brands)and other tool forums.
Remember-every manufacturer has made diamonds, and every manufacturer has made a turd here and there.
"tools of the trade(a FREE magazine to those in the trades with a great website that tests tools and compares major brands)"
Thanks for the tip about the magazine, but I have a different opinion about the often offered "not a manufacturer, just a retailer" theory:
"Remember, Craftsman is not a manufacturer-they are a retailer. You can trace the manufacturer of any Craftsman tool by its model number(there have been links in this board to show who makes what for craftsman.)"
I realize that. I'm one of the breaktimers that posted it. However, Sears makes Craftsman, Sears also makes Companion, and Sears also makes Sears. Does anyone see where I'm going with this? Just in case you don't: Black & Decker makes DeWalt, Black & Decker also makes Black & Decker. According to some of the posts on this very thread, Bosch and Skil have also shared the same manufacturer, yet somehow each company ends up retailing very different tools.
GM makes Cadillac, they also make Chevrolet, but hey, Chevrolet is just a retailer. Just think of all those buffoons that wasted their money on a Cadillac, when they could of got a Caviler from the same manufacturer! Please excuse my sarcasm, but I don't care if the exact same model numbers were traced to the exact same plant! How is a company going to make any money on a product that goes for $100 to Porter Cable, by selling the exact same thing to Craftsman for half that price, just so Sears can turn a profit? They're not.
Craftsman's "Industrial" line were among the first power tools I purchased in the mid 90's, and I had a bad experience with most every one of them. I am not prejudiced against Craftsman, I continue to buy many of their hand tools and I love them. There is, however, a reason why Craftsman has also earned the name "Crapsman;" that's their power tool division! Yeah, yeah, Craftsman has made many fine power tools in the past, but it's become the distant past. Craftsman power tools are not too far from being stationed right along with Ryobi and Black & Decker any longer.
It just seems to me, that some breaktimers are making excuses for a long line of recent purchases on their Sears card they don't want to admit was a mistake. I don't mean to cause offense. It's just that it seems so obvious to me, I can hardly stand it sometimes.
-T
Reason for Editing: Cadillac
Edited 8/12/2007 2:06 pm by JourneymanCarpenterT
Not to nitpick, but GM makes Cadillac, not Lincoln.
LOL..I saw that.
Buick and Olds were real cars too, never saw a GM Continental.
Kids these days...
I think I still have an Opal in a garage somewhere.
Is it sitting on the workbench beside the Opel?(;-)
It's funny you bring around the Sears thing. I've been reading the list, and honestly don't know if some members of the board have tried out all the tools they dismiss.
I was down in the shop today looking around, and I had to move my Craftsman industrial 7" Angle Grinder. My uncle got it for me around 12 years ago. It was made by AEG in Italy and was is heck of a grinder, 15 amp and power to spare. Around the same time I got a 1/2 Electric Impact Wrench, and I killed the first one in a month, but the second one has lasted for a long time. It was a B&D Pro rebadged. I also have a 5 1/2 Craftsman circ, that was a rebadged skil. Pretty handy until cordless came on scene.Before the WWW it wasn't easy for a younger guy to get tools at discount prices. At the time these were top shelf tools bought at prices lower than tool crib of the north. Besides, a lot of the DeWalt you like started as B&D and SEARS Industrial tools with yellow plastic.
Sears does not make Craftsman. Danaher makes their tools along with armstrong, Napa, Allen, and Matco. Of course, Dewalt had to make some concessions when building tools for Sears to market under the Craftsman name.They had to meet a certain price point no doubt. I don't know which industrial tools you bought, but my old recip saw is still going strong, as are my R.O. sander.(both of Dewalt lineage.)
As far as the Cadilac/Cavalier comment-Not the same. A GMC Sierra and a Chevrolet Silverado maybe... My GMC Suburban is the same as the Chevrolet except for the GMC badges and grille...
That's a very reasonable post. You make good points.-T
GM makes Lincoln
A..... No.... They don't
Gotta take issue with your Craftsman comment. Mind you, the tools i'm defending are from the 60's & 70's. They still work so no need to upgrade them to today's products.
Hitachi Contractor Saw 3hp transformed into cabinet saw, No problems.
Here is my take on your list:
DeWalt: Average quality ("portable" spiral cut 3-blade planer looks awesome, the new mini portable table saw looks handy, and the 15 ga. finish nailer interests me too, I have DeWalt's portable band saw and a trim compressor that I really like).
Bosch: Good stuff mostly (I own more Bosch than any other brand: TS, Rotary hammer drill, routers, cordless, power hand planer, etc.)
Porter Cable: Good sanders, routers, & recip. saws, fair cordess stuff, and nailers, etc.
Milwakee: Great corded drills & recip. saws; good cordless, fair routers, etc.
Makita: Fantastic 18v Li-Ion cordless tools, just try it and you will give away your Dewalt set, good SCMS, TS and a solid brand all around.
Hitachi: Great nailers and SCMS (the best for my trim work--smooth, accurate, powerful and quiet). One of the top five brands I use--not an "off brand."
Ridgid: Average to Good, the cordless stuff is heavy and I've heard battery life is not great (I recently purchased a Ridgid portable planer and it is a very nice machine).
Ryobi: Low end, but perfect for the DIY crowd or "disposable" pro tools that can be left on site.
Craftsman: Hit or miss, often over-priced. Some really good tools, like the rebranded Bosch router kit. I look in the clearance area.
Edited 8/11/2007 12:10 pm ET by basswood
Here's my take on the same list:
Dewalt....overall, have had very good experinecs with a number of 12" CMS and I think the biscut joiner is the best on the market until you get into the pricy Lamellos. Sanders are good, although i have a fairly new belt sander with some issues.
Bosch: i used to be a big fan. I still have stuff I bought when I first started, running strong. New stuff, not so impressed with. Have a new 12" CMS where the blade guard contacted the blade and exploded.....five minutes after i inspected the machine, while I was watching a student do everything right. Contacted Bosch.....they did not care one little bit....it was under warranty, get it fixed. Lost a LOT of confidence in the company at that, and I will be very careful from now on.
Porter Cable: generally good experience... a few bum tools (the early biscuit joiner, their completely crappy 5" random orbit sander as discussed in another thread).
Milwaukee; only have a couple of tools. My old installer buddy had a bunch of older ones....i was impressed, but they seem to have slipped quite a bit just when I'm open to buying some.
Makita: I have to say, I don't have any makita tools I love except their belt sanders (have 3, different models). But, while I find they are unloveable and uninspired, they are dependable....if I get stuck, I know I can buy a Mak and it will get the job done. I have a Makita recip saw that keeps getting the job done....I'd prefer a Milwaukee, but until this one dies, and it shows no sign of doing so, sticking with blue. Their sidewinder is by far the first choice of most guys in my neck of the woods.
Hitachi......hate the paint jobs, but they seem to be good tools. Will probaly get into them more.
ryobi....no.
Rigid....dunno. HD is very new here. I don't see a lot of their tools around to form an opinion....they have a couple of things I like the look of. Will have to try them out.
Some not mentioned (I don't think).....my buddy had a Walther hammer drill that was a beast....I think they may be Metabo know. I have one Metabo drill that is excellent, and their sanders seem very good.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
"my buddy had a Walther hammer drill that was a beast..."LOL, you sure that wasn't a Walther p38 hole shooter?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Okay, I'll give you a point for the funny, but the tool was awesome....a WALTER and yes I spelled it wrong but Sisyphus (posting below) hadone too....I'd buy one anytime. I bought a german made Milwaukee because it was sort of close and I was stuck.Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I have an old walter hammer drill that worked great for 20 years.
As you said, it was made by metabo. Actually it still works but only in
reverse. Maybe I should toss it but hey you never know.
Back in the early seventies my first circular saw was a wicked looking Craftsman. No one will be surprised to learn it and the 2 free ones that followed in quick succession were real junk. I broke the bank and went for a heavy duty Skil for which I paid $106.00 and which lasted me through 20 years of heavy construction. Here we are 35 years later and a much lighter, much nicer Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, whatever, cost about $125.00. I could tell the same story about virtually any tool I've ever owned. They're all dirt cheap now. They are also so expensive to repair that for the most part I consider them disposable and when one breaks I toss it in the trash and buy a new one. I can't even remember the last bad tool I've had.
you go away???
no comment???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 8/12/2007 12:03 am by IMERC
guess Ryobie isn't making tools for Sears as much as they were...
Unguarded Blades: Sears warned customers to remove the “Craftsman†logo label from their Chinese-made Craftsman Circular Saws, after it was found that the label could become partially detached, leading to exposure of the saw blade and injury to those operating the saw.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!