Coupla on-going posts about prehung doors, one of them referencing an out-of-whack door that hadn’t been shimmed. Rung a bell somewheres. Sure enough, in Katz’s book, Finish Carpentry, he states he never shims prehung hollow core doors, presumably due to the lack of weight.
I’ve always shimmed, interior or exterior, prehung or slab, hollow core or 6-panel, this is the first I’ve heard of hanging doors without it.
Anyone else hang without shims? If so, how have they survived over time? Is this a time saver, or an out-of-whack door waiting to happen?
I never met a tool I didn’t like!
Replies
I see an argument brewing. This has come up before. I agree a little with the argument that there isn't a lot of weight in the door and case hanging it should hold. But there's reality, and who hasn't seen a three year old swinging by the door? Or a teenager in a fit slamming it into the next property line? I always shim, period. My opinion, doing without is asking for problems.
An aside - I routinely see windows and exterior doors (always set by the framers around here) without shims and guess what. Jacked. But I finally won. For one builder, now the trim guy gets to set all of it while the framing is going (that would be me) and I think that it's the way it should be. I don't expect framers to fully understand the headache an out of square window gives the trimmer. And yes, I'm shimming, flashing, and insulating as I go.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Another thing he wrote (Katz) and I've seen some of, but don't do, is nail the casing on the hinge side of the door while the prehung is on the floor. I sometimes glue/nail/biscuit the casing prior to installing it on the door, but casing the door before installing might cause the miters to open, no? I see where it might help prevent racking, but in remodeling old houses, the RO is never plumb/square and the floor is seldom level, which makes precasing the door seem like extra work.
Or maybe it's just me.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
re: pre casing
i think that it makes it go faster, casing the hinge side. you can set the door up where you want it, blast a few nails through the trim and then shim it, fallowed by installing the casing that you have pre asambled for the other side. the miters will not open up if you do not rack the door, which is what you do not want to do anyways.
we also tack two offcuts across the non hinge side to help hold the door square etc, they also make handy handles.
james
I hear ya on the off cuts, and do that as well. I have a client with a house that needs all its interior doors replaced next month with prehung hollowcores, so maybe I'll try the precased trick. Still gonna be hard to convince me that shimming is not required, though...
I never met a tool I didn't like!
We always shim our prehungs because that is the way I have done it and feel comfortable doing it that way. But in my house that is 25 years old, none of my interior doors are shimmed and they are fine. So I think it would be fine to not shim them, but I just can't bring myself to do it, it's a slippery slope.We become by effort primarily what we end up becoming
- Zig Ziglar
sorry i left out the shim part, you almost have to do that to make the reveal look right. ( and stay right )
james
Do you mean reveal or margin? I thought the reveal was the area from casing to jamb and spacing between door and jamb was the margin. Otherwise you are right in my opinion. If I frame the ro I make every effort to make hinge side perfectly plumb and use one of the goldtone construction screws long enough to go well into jack stud in each hinge. If a heavy door I use more that one per hinge jamb side and at least one on door part of hinges.
oops... margin it is,
james
Did not mean to be catty with you. Hope you did not take it that way. Sometimes I just don't quite say what I mean or how I meant to sound. :-)
Edited 3/7/2004 6:48:58 PM ET by RASCONC
Edited 3/7/2004 6:50:04 PM ET by RASCONC
I always shim
I also precase whenever I can. I work form the hinge side regardless and If casing is not in the works yet, I sticker across to tack it in place, then shim and fasten through the jamb.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I can't believe anyone would hang a door without shimming.
I always shim. Genreally, I do the top hinge first and hit it with an 18 guage brad nail through the jam. That gives me the third hand that I need to get moving yet is small and flexible enough that if I need to move that side of the jam up or down, in or out, I just nudge a little here and there. Once the I have the door "in place", I shoot with more serious nails if necessary. Goes fast and easy.
Rob Kress
"Carpentry, he states he never shims prehung hollow core doors, presumably due to the lack of weight."
What does weight have to do with?
Either with or without shims you end up the the jamb solidly attached to the stud and if the stud moves due to the weight the door moves.
Of couse with shims you it is eailer to later rehange the door.
He specifically said he did not shim hollowcore prehungs. If weight doesn't matter, why shim anything at all? I assumed the difference between hollowcores and everything else is the difference in weight. A solid core door relying on just casing nails and not shot solidly thru to the jambs will eventually fail in one form or another. But that's just my opinion.
And as the old addage goes, 'When you azz-u-me...' so I may be off base, since he didn't give a reason for one and not any others.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Edited 3/7/2004 8:10:57 AM ET by NickNuke'em
Nick
I thought that there was a big argument about whether to shim or not, seems that it surfaced over Katz's article.
I could not imagine hanging a door with out shims, I would consider it hack work, but that's just me.
I think hanging without shims is a track home thing, gotta hang a door in 15 min or you don't make any money, no time to shim.
Doug
I didn't realize this had been hashed over before. From those that have responded, the majority favor shims.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Around here, we use precased, split jamb prehung when hollow core doors are called for.
Re shimming, let me cut to the chase: When interviewing a trim crew, that is one of the few things I ask, and I have fired trim crews for not doing it. That said, a lot of guys do not do it. Matt
Nick
I didn't mean to chastise you for not knowing that it had been discussed here. Seems that it was about the same time that I started coming in here. I didn't participate in any of the discussion and I only vaguely remember the thread.
I have seldom found any good in what Gary Katz does, doesn't mean that hes a hack, just that what he does has little to do with what I want to do. He's very successful, just not the way I quantify success.
If your doing production work(ie, track homes) than maybe that's acceptable, just isn't for me.
Doug
No offense taken, believe me. What I should have done was maybe conduct a search on the subject first. I really wanted to see if anyone else hung prehungs without shims. And the answer is, apparently not.
Actually, I've met Gary several times at various trade show/conventions and refer to his books from time to time. And I although agree that perhaps some of his ways may differ than the methods I may use (I can't imagine not shimming,) he has a wealth of knowledge and experiance that I find useful when I have questions. And he has a love for tools, all kinds, and making them work for him.
Thanks for the reply.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
I don't think of Gary as a hack, but as sdomeone who looks for other ways to increase production. I don't think that he, in his methodology, givves up on quality, but the problem is that young bucks who don't know the basics and try to emulate him, may miss a step and leave a poorly hung door. There may be less room for error in his methods.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well said Piffin.
Many don't like his methods because they run contrary to what they themselves feel is necessary. I would bet Gary has hung over 10,000 doors (this is a WAG) and if his methods were problematic, then I believe he would adjust them as needed.
If you visit his website, you will see that he is very much a craftsman, but he also understands that people who can afford $35 pre hung doors shouldn't be excluded from the basic tenets of quality work that $3500 doors get.
Jon Blakemore
In my thinking, that is one of the definitions of a professional - being able to differentiate and work within the parameters of the job.
edit add - http://garymkatz.com/ for those who don't have it.
Doug, I know. Your work is exquisitely beautiful and not in the production category, as far as I am concerned. Two different games.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 3/7/2004 9:02:42 PM ET by piffin
Always shim butts and top and bottom and lock of strike side.
Use long screws in all butts.
Learned long ago,with 3 kids, doors get abused!
Set them for the worst.
Piffin
I don't think of Gary as a hack
Nor do I, said so in my post, just that his ways of doing things differ than mine, hell he's financially more successful at this than I so who can argue with that.
Doug
Check out Jim Britton's article on installing prehung doors (Fine Homebuilding July 95, No. 96), he not only uses shims, but installs them to framing prior to installing door unit. This method is both fast and accurate and ideal when working alone.
regards
We rarely hang hollow core doors in custom work, but I have done it and have never hung a door without shims. Usually 4-5 shim locations per side, including top corners, bottom ends, hinges, strike. Second what someone else said about one hinge screw per jamb leaf replaced with a 3" brass screw. Think of it... young couple moving into the house, in 20 years they have a batch of off-the-hook teenagers slamming around, those doors have to hold up to it. You're not building stuff just to get past the open house. Right?
You're not building stuff just to get past the open house. Right?
Not I. But there are a few out there...
Gotta admit I only shim 3-4 locations per side. Do you use a level or plumb? I started using a plumb bob a while back and will swear it is the only way. I got tired of fritzing with casing miters because the jambs weren't perfectly square. Maybe my levels are out to lunch, but the plumb bob has done me well since I switched over.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
I have a plumb bob on a retractable reel with a spring-loaded pin that you tap into the jamb. It spaces the string exactly 2" from the base. I set the top of the hinge side jamb with one screw and about 3/8" of shim, hang the plumb bob, and them set the hinges to plumb. Then I swing the door and hang the rest of the jamb for an even margin.
Try using the jamber set from Stabila I can hang doors much better and faster because the level reaches top to bottom so you can be sure the jamb is straight as well as plumb.
They also have a plate level that extends (mine is to 10') This level shines when jambibg a 10-15' opening. The level is a little tough to manuver at 10' but it sure saves time getting the head staight and lavel.We become by effort primarily what we end up becoming
- Zig Ziglar
hi
i have done it both ways truth is if you are only hanging doors consistenly either way should be just as fast however shims are getting cheaper either
when i hang cheap doors i usally set up a bench
mark the reveals with a combination square set to 3/16" all around the jamb
glue & case 1 side on the bench
nail the rock off real good prior to installing the door
check the floor and adjust if needed
put a level 4' on one side ( casing )
nail the casing first to the studs with a 2" brad
measure & install solid blocking at hinge & strike points
install other side of casing