Hi all, new to this forum. I’ve been trying to research this topic and need some specific questions answered. I live in south eastern Ohio, close to Marietta. We live in a 150+ yr old barn. I have been in constuction for 25+ yrs, everything from frame to finish, cedar siding to ceramic tile and the guy I learned from never cut corners so every installation was done to the “T”. So now that you’ve got a little background and the type of work I strive for, my question is on popular board and batten. Our house/barn has a lot of the original siding on it. When the barn was converted they (I didn’t own it at the time) insulated and finished from the outside-in, so the siding could be left in place. The time has come to reside. I have had trees from the property cut and sticked, being southern Ohio the main choice here is popular. My concern stemmed from a friend’s house who used popular B&B and only got 7 yrs out of it before he started getting some rot. the wood was on the second floor so rain splash from the ground was not the cause. It happened in the joint where the B&B rested on top of a horizontal skirt board. The bottom of the B&B was flashed to keep water moving to the outside of the boards. On a cedar home this probably wouldn’t have been much of a problem and I know popular will soak up the water if given a chance, so how do you keep the bottom of the boards from wicking. I would bevel the top of the skirt board so that the flashing always maintains a slope to the outside and I would stain the ends of the boards to try and seal them. I was thinking of using rainscreen behind the siding. Do you use rainscreen on top of tyvec or in place of tyvec. We never had rainscreen when I was installing cedar. So to sum up- How do I protect/prepare the bottom of the B&B where it might rest on a horizontal board ie window trim or skirt board, and also is rainscreen the best or even needed- is it worth the money. Any input would be appreciated. I didn’t get to see my friends house before he tore it off so I can’t give many detail other than it was flashed and stained which was what I was planning to do- hence my concern.I am hoping when this gets done it will be done so that I won’t have to worry about it for many years.
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Replies
BJ
Poplar.
Ask your friend if the end cuts were ever sealed b/4 installed-lack of that is the death nell for most new growth woods.
Sloping the apron and the resultant bevel on the bottom of what runs into it will certainly help-but, the ends need sealed long term and well or eventually a gap will open up and they'll suck that moisture like a straw. Any over coat whether stain or paint on the face of the boards will do nothing but keep the moisture that entered from drying out.
A rain screen (store bought or made up out of furring) will help but not be the thing that eliminates the problem or be it's sole solution.
The problem is that B&B is
The problem is that B&B is not particularly weather-tight. On a barn it doesn't matter much -- if rain/snow blows through it simply falls to the (dirt) floor and is gone (which is why B&B can last for centuries on a barn), but once you insulate the moisture can get trapped.
So you need some sort of drainage plane.
And anywhere where a board rests against a horizontal surface is a problem. There should always be a gap between the board ends and any "water table".
(And it's "poplar" -- no "u".)
fix problem with B&B
I know that barns were designed to breath and that was a direct relation to their longevity and that is why I posting my concerns so that I can figure out how to best install my siding. Wood siding has been used for centuries on houses as well as barns, but for some reason it failed within 7 yrs on my friend's house. What constitutes a gap? I understand the reason, but I don't remember see gaps all over old houses. Is a 1/8 gap enough?
If you look around at old houses, hardly any use B&B siding, even when all the nearby barns and sheds are B&B. B&B works well on barns and sheds, but not so great houses, even the poorly-sealed ones of 100 years ago. Instead some form of horizontal lap siding is almost always used. This seals more tightly and sheds water to the outside.
B&B is actually a good style for "poor quality" wood that will tend to curl (such as poplar), since the narrow batten restrains the wider board from curling. Such wood works less well as lap siding, since the bottom edges will tend to curl outward.
It should be possible to use poplar in a B&B style, but it needs to have plenty of room to breathe on the back side. I would guess that 3/4" would be the bare minimum, and more would be better.
And, of course, a lot of attention to detail is needed. There must be no places where water can stand and soak the wood. Where "natural" drainage is insufficient use flashing.
I must repectfully disagree with part of what you said. You don't see B&B on many old houses but I have seen it on some and maybe these houses were so poorly sealed the wind blew though the walls. And at least in eastern Ohio where poplar trees were and are plentiful I have seen many old houses probably hundreds that have poplar lap siding. I'm not trying to improve on the past and I'm not trying to install poplar like cedar. I thought I could until my friend's house developed problems. I know poplar will last 100+ years if you can let it shed and dry inbetween getting wet, so I looking at what I can do to make this happen the best way, with what I have to work with. This is a 30 x 50 barn with thirty+ foot gables and a large addition on the back so to use anything other that what I already have on hand, your talking about tens of thousands. So what do I have to do to make this work? If I bevel all horizontal boards ( whats a good angle 22? ) and put flashing on all beveled horizontal boards so there if no question on the direction of shed water and if I seal the ends of the boards ( whats the best to use to seal, once its up it ain't coming down for resealing anytime soon ) and if I put rainscreen behind it and tuck the back edge of the flashing behind the rainscreen, then what kind of a gap should be between the horizontal and the B&B ends. Is a 1/8 gap good enough for a weep? Yea bigger is better but lets remember that I would still like it to look good after I put all this time and money into it and not have a bunch of big gaps all over. I've got the wood and I'm just trying to form a plan not debate if there is something better, this is what I have to work with. If you had all the poplar you needed and lived in a house/barn and wanted the finish concept to still resemble a barn what would you do, make it work, or empty the bank account?
I must also repectfully disagree with part of what you said. I'm not trying to piss anyone off I'm just passing on first hand experience. Poplar could be a bad choice when compared to redwood or cedar, but in terms of native Ohio wood I believe poplar is a good choice over pine. I have seen many more pine failures over poplar failures. The pine I've seen used on building has been the wood that has dried and split. We have poplar and something oak like on our barn/house ( again it's what was available at the time the barn was built ) and the poplar has weathered much better that any of the other wood on the house. Where other wood is split and cracked two feet up the board, the poplar has really little cracking and is fairly flat and has weathered from I'm guessing 4/4 to about 3/8 or 1/2". Maybe the pine I've seen wasn't installed correctly and maybe the poplar on our house is the exception, it's just what I have to look at first hand.
I don't mind the hardiplank. I think it is a very durable product, but as I mentioned above, I have the poplar and to switch directions even with something reasonably priced would cost tens of thousands. I hope I don't have to change directions, I'm just not yet convinced that the poplar won't work.
Horizontal skirt board issue
You talked about your 150 year old barn/house, and about your friend's house with issues, but it isn't clear to me from your post if your house has that same detail - a horizontal skirt board at the bottom of the vertical siding.
THAT'S a detail I have long disliked. Looks fine, I guess, historically accurate and all, but it's a grand place for water to sit around waiting to do damage.
Add to that the less than weather resistant wood we use today (don't know anything about poplar, but even the western red cedar we've used historically out here in WA is far less weather resistant than what we used even 20 years ago, much less 150 years) and I'd say you have to redesign some details or change materials.
I would try my best to eliminate that skirt board. Any gap can fill with crap. Flashing will help some, but unless it's sloped, and gapped, and regularly cleaned, there's still a very good chance of water getting trapped and wicking.
Nope. I'm with the "gravity never rests" gang. I say take advantage of it and design your siding to allow water an uniterupted run to the ground whenever possible. Historically accurate details be damned.
Of course, out here where I ply my craft, where I've developed my opinions on what makes sense and what doesn't, we don't have snow sitting up against buildings, which I'm thinking maybe you do. I'm thinking that could present another set of issues to the rainfall we combat here in the Great Northwest.
And hey, if anyone is still reading this, that "board over batt" style finefinish (I think) mentioned, I've only ever read about that, never done it. How do you nail those boards so they don't cup? Seems like you'd have to nail both edges, which seems like it would lead to splitting? Am I wrong there? Anyone?
I agree that gravity never rests. I do like the addition of the skirt board though. No our "barn" doesn't have it like my friends house does. there is skirt board that is loosely nailed to give an appearance of one but it was poorly done ( I didn't do it). The hous is too tall on the gable ends for one run boards so there will have to be splices and you bevel them to keep water out or is that going to be a wicking area also. I figured if I put a band board up at the bottom of my gable, then I would have one run, no splices to the band board and one run to the peak of the gable. The barn has a 12 x 12 pitch so its a tall gable. If I'm going to have a band board then why not a skirt board and besides I can bevel and flash a band board and skirt board, you don't flash splices. And what do I do to the top of my windows not have any horizontal trim on those and run the siding over the top my window frame so that it sheds. I know horizontal is a bad place for water thats why I'm trying to get a good plan with beveling and flashing and sealing ends of boards. There are just too many places on there exterior of a building where you run into horizontal things not to have a plan for them. I have the wood and I'm just trying to keep the "look" that we have now. It just seems like there should be a way.
A couple things
You said - "I figured if I put a band board up at the bottom of my gable, then I would have one run, no splices to the band board and one run to the peak of the gable." That sounds okay if the roof overhangs enough to keep most of the rain off of that joint.
then - "If I'm going to have a band board then why not a skirt board..." Why not? Because that skirt board is so low on the wall that the roof doesn't protect it much from direct or wind driven rain, plus, virtually all the rain that hits the wall above that skirt slides down across that joint meaning it takes WAY more weather than the one higher up the wall.
then - "And what do I do to the top of my windows..." Of course there are place where we flash, and bevel, and caulk and try our damndest to avoid water penetration. No question. Those are unfrortunate choices we all have to make as we build. I get that. But why not eliminate as many of those hard to deal with horizontal joints as we can? That's all I'm saying.
My roof is a 12/12 so I have a bunch of wall in my gable that can get rained on. My question is this -you would rather take a chance on a whole wall of splices staying tightly closed as opposed to beveling and flashing a skirt and band board. With the wall below the gable and the wall in the gable there will be some runs 30+ft, boards and battens will be spliced. If the splice where two battens come together, separate a little, there is a direct gap into the siding boards and now you're depending on the rainscreen to do its job. I know when I put a piece of flashing on a beveled board, in ten years it's still going to be a piece of flashing on a beveled board, I don't think we can say the same about all the splices. I'm not working with cedar that you can bend and nail and most likely will stay there, this is 4/4 poplar that if its a board that whats to twist you are pprobably not going to stop it. Battens are not ment to be nailed super tight so I would think there are good odds for that to move and possibly open up.
You look at the band boards as a wall of trouble and I'm looking at a wall of splices the same way, thats all I'm saying
About nailing pattern, boards more than 6 or 7" wide you only put one or two nails in the center of the board so that the edges of the board can still move, then you nail your batten over the joint trying to nail through the space between the bigger boards. The batten is usually small enough that the cupping on it is minimal while at the same time holding the edges of the bigger board and still allowing the bigger board to move under the batten.
board and batt/board on batt
Yes, I agree that's one way to nail board and batt siding.
My question was about what finefinish (I'm pretty sure it was him) suggested about reversing the siding so that the batts were nailed on first, then the boards were nailed on top of them. Pretty sure that's called "board on batt" which seems like it presents some fastening challenges, which is probably why we don't see much of it.
My mistake I have never seen that style either
First off, I think your use of a locally available wood is right on. If it takes some extra care, then so be it. It's still more economical to do so rather than import a non-local alternative.
About rainscreens.... You use the term as if it's a "thing," whereas its really a term that applies to a system. True, there are materials such as Rain Slicker that act all on their own as the rainscreen system, but that's just industry trying to sell a convenient product. A rainscreen is really the application of a water resistant barrier, usually over sheathing, then applying material that holds the exterior cladding off by 3/8" or more. This creates a drainage plane behind the cladding allowing it to dry. This drainage plane must be open at the top and bottom to allow for the free exchange of air and the elimination of any collected water. A key element to a rainscreen is the wrb. That is where water infiltration finally stops. The exterior cladding will stop some, but it is assumed that it cannot stop all. On my house, the cladding is actually gapped. I make no pretense that the rain stops there. (Although most does.)
I believe that the best way to hang vertical cladding, such as board&batten, is to first nail vertical battens onto the building sheathing, then nail horizontal battens on top of those. Then the b&b is nailed on.
I was using rainscreen as a thing because we have a huge population of chinese beetle, the ones that look similar to ladybugs, and I was picturing the bought rainscreen to allow air and water to do its thing but keep the bugs from plugging up the walls. I've resided houses around this area (southeastern Ohio) and when you pulled off the old siding there were masses of those bugs two feet in diameter in many spots. Do you think that would be a problem worth worrying about? If something was added as a bug stop, it would have to be kind of tough, because these little bastards can eat through nylon screens in your house. I understand about water getting under the siding even if you don't have gaps like you said. A driving rain can be pretty persuasive. With that said what do you use knowing it will be exposed to water? Do you like tyvec or house wrap in general over tar paper? Thanks for your input
To those that say ...
To those who say poplar is no good for side, you have not used it is my guess. i have used cottonwood and aspen for siding and if you seal it or keep it dry it lasts just fine. If it gets wet and stays wet, seven years is a miracle.
I have never run it down onto a skirt board, but if I were I would flash it and gap it 1/4 inch. JMTCs.
Yea, that's what I was thinking, about 1/4. Thanks for your input DoRight
ad covers last post
the details will rule...
Rustic wood siding is my favorite but to be sucessful the details of design and application have to be right.
I wouldn't want the skirt board at all for reasons others have mentioned. If it were non negotiable I'd put a water table on top of the skirt, about 2.5" wide and 22* bevel. The table would extend maybe .5" out past the batts and 1.5" past the skirt. Bottom of the siding board also beveled. But it still won't last as long as skirtless will.
As for the gables it's usually not to hard to sucessfully use a 2 piece board with a 45* beveled splice joint.
Another solution I would prefer is beveling the bottom of each board 12* or more and extending just below the sheathing. To avoid the splices I'd put a horizontal water table board as above described but up high maybe even with the beginning of the gable slope.
Some people prefer the b and b to be aligned on top and bottom of the skirt, some don't but take it into consideration.
Don't ask how I know that last part.......
It occurs to me that if one SIMPLY MUST have a skirt board it would probably be better to place it OVER (in front of) the tails of the B&B boards, vs having them end above it. There would still be a tendency to collect water along the skirt, but the sensitive cut ends would not be exposed, and the skirt could even be shimmed out a hair. One could even perhaps end the battens 1/4" above the skirt and only cover the board ends.
Don't agree Dan
Adding to the face of anything outside (as some have done with window and door trims) just makes a place for water to get behind and stew..........sure water would pass behind the skirt and out the bottom but those battens would be trouble spots where covered.
And a good place to fill with leaves, hornets etc.
Hey oldhand I've got a couple questions. You mentioned the water table and having a 22* bevel on it and talking to everyone here I decided to bevel the top of the skirt board 22* and flash it. So it will have the same bevel as the water table. If that bevel works for the water table, wouldn't it work for the skirt and band board? I know the water table will make the rain drip out away from the skirt and band board, but would it get the water far enough out to make a big difference? I've had other people mention a water table piece and it just seems if that works, why wouldn't a beveled skirt? I know before flashing was used a water table was a must.
I'm not worried about splicing the main boards as much as I would worry about the battens being spiced because they're not or at least shouldn't be nailed really tight and once the nail goes through the batten it's unsupported for an inch until it goes into the sheeting. So it just seems there is a greater opportunity for the batten to twist or warp. I know some of this will happen no matter what I do, but I'm just trying to keep everything as straight as I can. Thanks for your input.
1. I would bevel anything I could get my hands on. It certainly won't hurt to do so.
2. Perhaps using cedar or other decay resistant wood for the skirt would be a good idea.
3. I don't know if its a good idea for a house or not, but boatbuilders would approach the siding/skirt interface with a tube of flexible forever caulk such as LifeCaulk or 4200.
4. As per your question of what I used for the wrb on my house... This was a product called Vaproshieid. Its a dream to use but very costly. I omnly used it because of its uv tolerance and its black color.
let's not confuse things with facts...
I can't give any science to prove the water table wil be more effective than beveling the skirt. But i think so.
Another thought - if you are using wall strapping to nail the siding to you could nail your skirt at that plane and have b&b on top.
As for the problem with keeping the batten strip splices together, I'm a fan of using what ever fastening system works. Maybe a few staples and some construction adhesive. I am not a slave to nailing recipes strictly allowing for wood movement in all events.
But that's another thread......
Ok, terminology lession needed ??
Band board vs Skirt Board vs Watertable
I have my guess as to how those terms shold be used, but I think they have been thrown all over teh place on this thread.
???
I'm not the expert on this ,but I always considered a trim board below the siding as the skirt and a trim board through the siding breaking it up as a band board and the water table a piece of trim used to shed water away from the wall. All of these are horizontal in placing. My band board would be at the "bottom" of my gable. The water table could stand alone but is usually on top of another piece of trim for stability and has a drip groove on the underside. The drip groove is far enough away that any water that drips clears any siding boards below it. I could wrong but that's the way I have them in my mind.
Therefore ....
That is pretty close to my thoughts. All though I thought you "skirt" borad at the foundation level just below the siding would be the water table. But you are saying if that board is .. say a 1 x 6 or 1x 8 on the flat it would be a skirt. At water table would be... say ... what ... a 2 x3 or something to kick the water out. And that that kick out peice would typically be on top of a skirt board?????
flashing b and b
Just thinking that horiz8ntal drip edge for both boards and batten would really be easiest way to go, but 1/4" would be minimal gap at bottom of boards I.e. between ends and flashing angle. (Just finishing up b and b in pine on big horse barn up here in Quebec, near Ottawa. Ironically, 12" 4/4 boards came from Maine, where forest stewardship has probably been more forward thinking than here in la belle province. Pity. You do have ample poplar in s e Ohio - I livedin noble county once upon a time)
Best of luck.
Bevel
I would bevel the bottoms of the boards so only a point, if anything, contacts the band board. A better detail would be to flash over the band board, paint the flashing the same as the siding, and leave a gap of at least half an inch between the siding and the flashing. Having an air gap below the end grain would help a lot, and if you leave a space below the beveled point, it can help to encourage water to bead up and drop off, rather than to wick upwards.
I would also treat the bottom of the boards with something like Wolman Copper Coat, and maybe even the entire board. Then I'd use an oil based primer-sealer on all six sides of every board. A rainscreen behind would be dandy, as well. My own view is that all siding leaks, and that the water barrier behind, be it a rainscreen or just a properly detailed building paper installation, is what really keeps the water out.
You've just descibed my conclusion. My siding is leaking now and we need new windows, so I was planning on a good water barrier that would be sealed right with the windows. I've been trying to descide about the rainscreen. I'm not against furring the siding for air flow, but I've seen chinese ladybugs fill places like that on siding I've torn off. They've filled in behind the siding to the point they have discolored the front of the siding, so I'm pretty sure there's not much airflow there and the water behind the siding is getting hung up there. I'm still trying to work that out, or find a manufactured rainscreen that will not get plugged up.
And that was the kind of detail I was thinking of for the skirt, bevel it with flashing over the top of it, same color as the house, and then slant the bottom of the boards, except I was thinking a 1/4 gap. The gap would lead right into the rainscreen giving air a chance to keep all that dry (also the area I worry about filling with bugs) and then leaving a space under my band board (at the "bottom" of my gable) but protected from water. Then do the same detail with the top of the band board and the top of my gables. That will give the back of the siding the drainage and air it needs ( I hope ). I looked up coppercoat it sounds pretty good, but i was going to do a fairly natural finish so I'd probably just do the copercoat on end cuts. It said the green color fades with time, but I'd probably still save it for the ends. Thanks for you input Andy.
One thing I like about askirt board ..
is that if you have a skirt board down at the foundation level below say your first row of lap siding, any water splashing up from teh ground hits teh skirt board. And then if you get some rot in the skirt board it is very easy to replace as opposed to prying the first lap board out. Easy repair.