What’s the best way to price trim work? I’ve never priced trim work alone and I have a HO with a whole house that needs it. I’m talking about crown, sills, raised panel wainscoting, casing and base.
Should I go time and materials, by the foot, or just charge what I need for my time? Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
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Time and materials is a guaranteed loser for anyone I think. You are guaranteed to make today what you made last week and last year. I only do contract work. It motivates me to learn, work hard and pay attention so I can learn more. The more I learn, the more I make. I am at the point where I practically never lose and I make a lot of money. After 10 years of this, I live in a castle and my contractor friends who are still doing t+m are working on thier cottages nights and weekends while they ignore their kids and there wife is at work.
Market forces will prevail though. You have to have the right sources-high end architects for me. Price them high, lose a few but enjoy yourself on the one that you get. You'll make a lot and you'll do you best work because you're being paid for it.
I price my trim by the running foot/piece, then by a time and materials take off, then by my gut feeling. I consider the different numbers then add at least 15 to 30% because I tend to be too opimistic and feel the number out again. In the end, if I think I can get more for the job, I charge more. I try to never give my work away for what it costs but for what I can get for it.
I think I have to say no a good amount of work and I have lose 30 to 50% of the work I bid to make money. I never want to be the low bidder. I need very good specs and a good contract to start something and I write a lot of qualifying notes about what's in and what's not, what's soft and what's firm and if it is soft I have the architect spec an allowance to be reconciled later.
Contracting is like surfing. If you go to the right beach and wait long enough, you're going to get that most awesome wave that will carry you all the way in, past all the others, and you'll have fun doing it.
Sorry about the conceited tone of this message but you asked.
Good luck!
Mark sounds like a professional trim carpenter...but from your post, I suspect you are not.
Until you get the routine down for cutting and nailing up the various types of trim, you are better off to charge time & materials. Charge them your hourly rate, and mark up the materials 10-15% if you have to pick them up from the lumber yard.
Also, expect to buy slightly more material than needed so you can use off cuts for IS and/or OS corner templates and to experiment with return cuts, etc. Some homeowners buy "just enough" trim and expect you to make every cut perfect the first time...with no room for error. This mentality will cause you to slow down considerably...which is detrimental to your work performance. Knowing that you can make a few mistakes and still have enough trim on hand will allow you to experiment with tricky cuts and figure out odd angle cuts and will greatly ease the learning curve.
Once you become proficient in trim work, then, and only then, will it be advantageous to simply bid out the job ....until then, play it safe...make some money, and gain the experience.
Good luck with the job.
Davo
No i'm not a trim carpenter. I do trim but I do alot more. I'm pretty good at trim my main question was about pricing it. Sounds like Mark prices the way I do (a little from T&M and a little from his gut). Lately i've been estimating based on what I need for a days work and how long I feel the job will take.
I usually do buy a bit more material.This customer is good about letting me get what I need (as far as parts). Conversely he knows I wont take advantage of this arrangement.
For what its worth,
A lot of trim carpenters know on average how many ft of trim they can accurately manage to install in an 8 hour day. They too know how much money they need to make at the end of the day, and so therefore they set their LF price based on that assumption. Too, they know what kinds of cuts give them problems or "slows" down the work somewhat, and so they charge a premium when confronted with making those particular cuts.....
Hence, many trim carpenters price their work based on the lineal foot, and add an xtra charge for each miter cut. They walk through the rooms, add up the footage, count the number of miters and /or cope cuts....and then charge accordingly. Of course, there is a different set of prices depending on the type and size of the trim they are going to install. Price given for baseboard is normally lower than for crown, etc. etc...
As for installing wainscoting, you could charge by the sqaure foot. Again, you need to have a fairly good idea of how much time you will have involved with this type of work.
The only way you are going to make better than average money is if you are a better than average trim carpenter.
The first time you start getting bogged down in trying to make some tricky cuts, or you run into a layout problem with your wainscot grid....you start losing money....the longer it takes you to solve these types of problems...the more money you lose.
Say you figured you could trim out a house with new baseboard and crown moulding, and some chair rail in 1-1/2 days. Lets say you need to average $150 a day. So you give a bid of $225.
If you finish the job as expected, you will make $225...or $18.75 per hour...BUT
Lets say you go like gangbusters and finish in one day...wow, you just earned a bonus of $75...your rate of pay was $28.12 per hour. Not bad!
But, lets say that instead you had troubles on the job...a few things went south, and so did your time....this time it took you 2 full days to complete the project....That being the case, you just lost $75...and your hourly rate dropped to $14.06 per hour.
Had you simply bid the job by T&M...you wouldn't have earned any bonuses, but you also wouldn't have lost any money either...your pay rate would have been a steady $18.75 per hour...regardless.
Now Mark is right in that if you want to get ahead and earn higher than average income, you have to bid the jobs instead of T&M...but you better have a good grasp on what you can do in a certain amount of time. If you feel confident that you can complete a task in a certain amount of time nomatter what...then go for it. Bid the jobs. If they start biting you in the a$$...then rethink your situation.
I prefer to bid lump sum jobs...but there have been a few times when I wished I hadn't...cause I burned myself. I've never been burned on a T&M.....so long as you charge a good hourly rate for your services.
Wishing you good luck on your job prospects.
Davo