Hey all,
The need to cool down thread reminded me of a paint topic/ question. I noticed a HD commercial mentioning doing more with less, and saving time, and what not.
They mentioned paint with primer already mixed in? HUH. How does that work. How can primer help the paint adhere when it is going on at the same time???
Webby
Replies
Isn't that what SW says about duration? self-priming
Oh, I don't know. I have never used duration. Seems counter intuitive to me to ahve the primer in the paint.Webby
I've used Duration with interior applications for years. I always primed interior use with new wood/drywall. However, I did not catch the EXTERIOR product use. Here it is from their website:
Product Literature (PDF 1416KB)
Our advanced exterior formula features PermaLast¯ technology for the most durable, longest-lasting exterior coating available for resisting peeling and blistering.
Features:
One-coat, self-priming performance on repaints, two coats on new work
Superior hide
Thicker, more flexible coating
Maximum resistance to blistering and peeling
Guaranteed to last (see label for warranty information)
At its most basic level, capitalism offers people the freedom to choose where they work and what they do … the dignity that comes with profiting from their talent and hard work. … The free-market system also provides the incentives that lead to prosperity -- the incentive to work, to innovate, to save and invest wisely, and to create jobs for others.” -President George W. Bush
In other words, free-market capitalism is the best path to prosperity.
Had the SW salesperson tell me she only recommended Ext Duration over raw wood.
We did our house with 1-2 coats of Duration over tinted oil primer over CVG cedar. Nice product but a little thick and therefore more difficult to apply in warmer weather. Dries more quickly than you would expect also.
Jeff
I saw that too. Remember when they introduced peanut butter and jelly in the same jar? My instinct tells me that this is one of those gimmics that will appeal to the lazy people (and hey-who's not lazy when it comes to paint?) but it won't turn the paint world on it's head or eliminate the need for good primers. For one thing, even lazy people should be warned that this paint might make shopping a little simpler, but it won't allow them to "skip a step". If you want to paint a red wall yellow it's still going to take multiple coats. For new drywall or bare wood, a sacrificial first coat will still be needed to seal the surfaces before any topcoat will appear even (sheen, texture and whatnot).
If you can't skip a step, the question becomes: is this really a better way to do things? A good all around primer would be relatively inexpensive (you use a lot of it on "thirsty" surfaces), fast drying (to lessen the down time), be versatile (able to penetrate deep into unsealed substrates or stick to smooth, sealed surfaces alike) AND provide a welcome surface for a top coat.
Meanwhile, a good semi gloss finish paint needs to be self leveling (read:slow drying), richly pigmented (not cheap), and NOT provide a welcome surface for anything to stick to it (this is why you should always sand between finish coats, btw). To change colors from dark to light, I'd rather use a fast drying tinted primer than three or four coats of finish paint.
In short, you can buy your peanut butter and jelly together to save the trouble of opening two jars and cleaning the knife in between , but it's probably not going to be the best peanut butter OR jelly. Me, I like choices (chunky,or creamy? grape, or strawberry? more pb, or J?) .
and NOT provide a welcome surface for anything to stick to it (this is why you should always sand between finish coats, btw).
saulgood, Could you elaborate a bit on this?
Thanks
>"'and NOT provide a welcome surface for anything to stick to it (this is why you should always sand between finish coats, btw).' Could you elaborate a bit on this?"Sure Rez.It's no secret that for good adhesion, a surface to be painted needs to be dull. By "dull" I mean "not glossy", or in painting terms, "flat". Flat paint doesn't shine because it's surface, being porous, absorbs light. This porosity also gives a surface it's "tooth" - or absorptive quality to which subsequent coats of finish can cling. So it stands to reason that the glossier (or less absorptive) a surface is, the less things will stick to it. This, not looks, is the real reason that trim (doors, bannisters, baseboards, window sills, etc.) are always painted with at least a semi gloss sheen. This was the basis for my comment about sanding between coats of high sheen paint. Unlike primers which tend to be flatter, a "finish" is so named because it's meant to be the final coat of protection. If you have to use more than one coat of glossy paint, the dried first coat will naturally work against the ability of the second coat to bond.
Many people will scoff at the idea of sanding perfectly good coat of paint instead of just slopping on more, saying, "that's just too much extra work". But there are a couple of factors that these people probably haven't considered.
First of all, when I say "sand" in this case, I mean a light sand. This is not the same as sanding something to make it smooth -in fact it's just the opposite. To dull a glossy finish you don't need a power tool or "elbow grease' of any kind - a couple of light passes with a medium or fine sanding sponge is enough to scuff the surface and provide grip. Moving quickly but thoroughly, you can light sand all the trim in an average room in less than five minutes. If five minutes of light sanding still seems like too much "extra" work, you should know that improving the bond will not only help a paint job last longer, it can save you time -especially when you're using a brush to paint trim. A paint brush puts down paint, yes, but it also picks it up, and glossy surface will be more willing to "give back" paint to the brush, leaving thin or unpainted streaks in your work that can take a few coats to eliminate. Dull or "thirsty" substrates will take the paint and keep it much more effectively, thereby reducing the number of coats needed for the paint to cover. [I guess I was wrong...I can't elaborate "a bit" on this...oh well.]
Thanks for the update.
By 'dried first coat' are we speaking of a 'days later' recovering with the second coat or a later in the day second coat?
Reason for the inquire is I'm wondering if the chemical bond between coats on same day painting, as opposed to days later recoating after dry and cure, would perform a sufficient bond?
I agree toatlly saulgood, thanks for the info. I favor SW paints and only use the box stoe paints when I don't have a choice. Ususally valspar from Lowes.Webby
Hey webby,
I own a paint/drywall company in the Chicago area. I want to first start off with saying, DON'T EVER BUY HOME DEPOT PAINTS !!! Behr paint is garbage. They reason being is that they start out by using a sub-par latex base and add tons of addatives to beef up the product. Addatives are great in moderation. However the base latex used is the bottom of the barrel. There are a few good primer/paints on the market, but not at HD. B. Moore makes a product, " Iron-Clad" about $45. per gallon here in Chicago. Offered in both latex and oil. Although due to EPA regulations here in IL, all oil based products were removed from the marked as of 6-30-09. This product is like gold to me. I use it all the time for my exterior projects. It is a self priming/ paint in one. It comes in two finishes low luster and Gloss. Typically I use the low luster for exterior trim and the gloss for doors and windows. The low luster has a Matte like fisish and is very pleasing to look at. This product also has a rust inhibitor that works great for metal applications as well. My paint company works on mostly Executive Custom homes being 1,000,000. plus homes. And I use this product all the time, with great feedback from the home owners. I do like that it only requires a 2 coat application as apposed to the normal 3 coat application. 1 primer coat and 2 top coats of paint. Remember that all manufactures state on all their cans that all paints require a 2 coat application. Although "Iron-Clad" is a higher price point per gallon than a regular exterior paint/stain, you safe a lot of time as well as cutting out the need for primer. So in the end I find that this type of application produces a faster, higher quality, and very pleasing finish. Please let me know if there is anything that I can help you with. [email protected]
Hope this helps,
McNellis Construction Contracting and Kevin's Paint Contracting
Thanks for the input.
Im not sure if we have a B. Moore distributor in my area. I tend to favor Sherwin Williams, but I don't do that much exterior work. Thanks again for the info.
Webby
Edited 7/10/2009 1:59 pm ET by webby
Webby,
I also have a large account with S. Williams. I didn't realize that we were speaking of interior work. S. Williams does offer a product that is new as of about a year and a half ago. Its called Durration. This product is pretty good, although I've only used it a few times. I prefer B. Moore myself, but to each their own. S. Williams Interior Durration is a self priming/ paint in one. And what is great about this product is that it guarantees a perfect two coat coverage for all colors. Deep and Ultra deep tint base colors (dark reds, blues, greens, and even most yellows) before mostly were 3-4 coat coverage. With the need of a dark tinted primer as a base coat. I would recommend this product as I've actually have it in my kitchen, a Deep Red as an accent wall. Before this product came on the market my S. Williams rep called me and offered a free sample of a few gallons to use to try out so I would help sell this line. I used it in my kitchen and I was amazed that it covered great in two coats and the eggshell finish turned out perfect.
Yeah I don't do much painting outside. Actually I got the name duration confused with the good outdoor paint from SW. My fault. Thanks for the info. I will remember the duration if I have the need for it.Webby
Wow, Kevin ! Welcome to BREAKTIME. We need a good authority here on paint, and you seem to be THE MAN !
I know there are paint forums out there, but I for one, am glad you're here. Great bunch, and there are many here that are just as expert in their particular trades as you are in yours.
Hey, if you hit ENTER every now and then and break your posts into paragraphs, it makes it a lot easier to read.
C'mon in, the water's fine.
Greg
I am not a big fan of primer unless special circumstances warrant its use.
I typically use the finish product as the primer in a lot of cases. Bare wood I have a technique of thinning oil-based paint for a first coat that is deep biting, for example. Have had great and long-lasting success with it.
I use SW paints exclusively but lately have had a multitude of problems with them. I have been very put off by the product issues and the subsequent customer service. Particularly I've been having trouble with coverage on exterior latex enamels. 3 coats with brush to cover on primed and scuffed metal.
However, Most recently I have also had a unique problem with SW paints. Their ultradeep base has been problematic in holding pigment when using dark green colors (client spec). I had a problem with their enamel being roller applied and drying blotchy. It appears that the colors in the can were separating dramatically enough to cause this. I tried two coats on a new metal door with the same effect no matter how much mixing I put forth. Then the store replaced the gallon with another. Went from DTM Acrylic Enamel to their standard SW enamel. Same problem.... so then they sent me down the road to another branch in case it was a batch issue. same exact problem. I eventually used some leftover superpaint of the same color for a final coat that looked fine. So I had 5 coats on a brand new door.
Over the years, I have noticed SW paints go from superior to substandard to superior and then again to substandard, it seems.
I have used Behr in a pinch and only a couple times so I do not have enough history to give a comprehensive opinion but honestly, the few times I have used it, their paint has performed excellently. I would use it again.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
It doesn't work. I helped a guy do some sanding and a few touchups on ahouse he spackled. The homeowner was goint to use the afformentioned miracle paint. She called crying, saying how horrible her new house looked after she painted all but one room. We went over and you could puke it looked that bad. You could see every place that was spackled, they stuck out bad. He told her it was the paint and should have primed first. She primed and painted the undone room and voila, beautiful. That paint doesn't hide or blend anything in.
Ok, thanks for the information everyone.Webby