I’m having a serious, really frustrating problem installing some doors in my house.
I’m trying to install some Masonite brand Safe and Sound (solid core, so they’re heavier) prehung doors in my home.
Every time I get one of these doors installed, it won’t close right. I even bought a Jambmaster jig to try to get them in right. I used it for the first time today, but the door still doesn’t seem right. (There is a learning curve with the Jambmaster–for me at least–so I can’t blame it on this first attempt. I may have not used it right).
When I close the door, it pushes back open slightly (I’m having this problem with every door). There’s a 1/8″ gap between the door and the jamb at the top of the hinge side, but no gap at the bottom. The gap between the door and the jamb on the strike side gets larger toward the bottom.
Because they’re solid core, the doors are on the heavy side. And I’m not impressed with the hinges (there’s some slop in them) or the jambs.
Does anyone have any advice for me? Is this the best you can expect installing a prehung door? Or am I to blame? Or the quality of the hinges or something?
I really, really need some help with this.
Edited 2/25/2008 6:59 pm ET by JDLee
Replies
could be a couple of things... hinges are binding, hinges not connected to the frame tight/strong enough, rough frame not in plane, or a combination thereof or something else.
The door is hinge bound. There should be a wood shim at floor level on the butt side, then straight edge to the top. The bottom hinge takes all the weight, sometimes shimming it out is necessary if the pre hung unit is not done well. By that I mean a cardboard shim behind the butt. It wants to pull from the top, needs a strong fastener there, sometimes even replace the butt screw with a long one all the way to the framing. Hard to explain over the net, did my best.
John
There should be a space between the stop and the door on the butt side. If not it will also be hinge bound. Can't see that side in your pictures.
Edited 2/25/2008 7:06 pm ET by JohnCujie
Hi John,
Thanks for the response. It's not hitting the stop when I pull it all the way closed. It looks to me like it's being "pushed" back open because there's no gap at the bottom on the hinge side.
I'm not up on all the terminology. I take it the butt side is the hinge side of the jamb?
I don't follow what you're saying about the cardboard shim. Are you saying it would be at the top or at the bottom?
Thanks
The door also may be slightly binding on the stop. Or the bottom of the jmb side is twisted, or should I say not in plane with the wall.
Put a thin piece of cardboard, about 1/2" wide and the height of the butt, behind the bottom butt on the jamb. Flush to the outside. You are twisting the pivot point away from the jamb side, creating more space. This may help.John
Hello again, John,
I'm looking at hinge and door terminology on the web, and if I'm reading it right, you are suggesting that I insert a piece of cardboard between the lower hinge and the jamb (closer to the knuckles than the stop)?
Yes. About 3 times the thickness of a business card. The cardboard from a battery package is about right. You can double it up if one isn't enough. Put a spot of glue on it to the jamb so if a painter or other takes off the hinge it doesn't fall out. John
Solid core doors are pretty heavy, so we always run 3 " screws in thru upper hinge into framing member. Another thing to check is how tight the hinge side doorstop is to the face of door when in closed position. Prehung units aren't always put together with precision, and if the stop is too tight it will cause door to bind like you're seeing.
If I'm seeing right, those hinge knuckles don't exactly line up, do they? Your supplier should give you some new ones. That might fix things.
Make sure all the hinge screws are tight, and hinges seated fully in the mortices, or at least all seated the same depth. Put at least one long screw through the top hinge that hits the framing. It doesn't hurt to put one in the bottom either.
If the door is hitting the jamb at the bottom of the hinge side, put a scrap on the jamb and tap it away from the opening, shim that and nail it.
If the door is hitting stop at the hinge side when it trys to close, and it doesn't look like the jamb is twisted, you'll have to move the hinges, or plane the stop. If it's twisted, untwist it.
Maybe the wall is leaning?
I'd like to hear more about that Jamb Master, if you get time.
Good luck
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
Hi Snort,
Thanks for the info (and thanks to everyone who is responding).
I will post more about the Jambmaster, but I don't want to right now because I can't fairly assess it having used it only once (and made a mistake or two).
You are right about the knuckles of the hinge. I don't understand how they can be so sloppy, but was wondering if that might be at least part of the problem. I guess I could buy some other ones and see if they change things (I'm guessing it's a standard size?).
When I pull the door closed and hold it, it's not hitting the stop on the hinge side, so it looks like that isn't the problem.
The door is hitting the jamb at the bottom of the hinge side. I could do what you're describing.
But I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't just uninstall the door completely, pry off all the "shims" I installed with the Jambmaster, and then use it to install them again (but this time make sure I've routed all of them before I pull it down and then have to put it back up again). Then I could also use it to put a "shim" all the way at the bottom of the hinge side, too. I didn't know I needed something there.
The wall isn't leaning much if at all (according to my level, it's almost perfectly plumb).
Where did you get the door? They'll probably replace the hinges.I'm replacing a whole houseful of pre-hungs that look just like that.Still sounds like you just need to get the hinge jamb knocked back so you have an even reveal.Whatever you do, put some long screws thru the hinges.And, don't put the Jamb Master away. It sounds like a very useful, accurate, and quick tool for hanging doors. Those other guys are just jealous you're the first on the block with the new toy... and, if you do get tired of it, I got dibs <G>
Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I intend to use it on this house and then sell it. And if it doesn't work well, I'll do everything I can to run down its reputation on every forum I can think of.
But it actually seems like a very accurate piece of equipment. I messed up by having it all set up and only routing 7 of the 8 "shims." Trying to get it back in at the exact same place was next to impossible.
I know there are plenty of skilled people out there who could install these doors without it, but I'm not one of them.
I am beginning to think that the hinges may be partly to blame. I'm going to buy another set and see what kind of difference (if any) that makes.
I've only installed 3 doors before these. Two were prehung, and both were a big pain, but for different reasons. The one that wasn't the prehung was the easiest for me. I don't remember exactly how long it took, but I know I didn't have this much trouble with it.
I bought these doors, tried to install two of them, and gave up. I then hired a great contractor I know to do a lot of work for me, but he couldn't get these doors in right, either. So maybe were both morons.
I had 8 of these to hang as slabs last summer replacing hollow cores all the way around. I think it was easier to locate and hang the doors as slabs then to use prehung. This was my first experience with the masonite type product, and they are heavy. You have gotten some excellent advice, but I would agree the comments about squaring the opening and checking the morticing. Start from the beginning of the checklist if it doesnt "add up". Good luck."The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a governmental program" -Ronald Reagan
Hinge bind. If they're prehung you may not have the hinge side jamb out of square.
Hi MSA1,
Did you mean I may not have, or I may have?
Sorry, I meant you may have the jamb out of square.
My 1st thought is put away the Jam-master for the moment and get a Mullen plumb bob reel, they are about $12. drive the spike into the rough framing, drop the bob. mark on the rough framing where the hinges will go and shim in those locations, plus near top & bottom.. Use a 1" spacer to gauge the same distance between the plumb bob line and shimes. Having done that you now KNOW that your hinge jamb is plumb. Install jamb on hinge side. Next you can take a framing square and check that your jamb is square to the wall. You may want to bevel your door 1 degree on the hinge side- for hinge bind. If things are still not coming together take 2 pieces of string and run diagonals, left top the right bottom & right top the left bottom, where they cross they should touch. If not you may have to beat the bottom of the wall to make them do so. On some doors you may have to split the hinges & bend the knuckles to get the right revel. Set the strike side revel after nailing off the hinge side and driving some longer screws into the trimmer stud.
good eye snort! JDLee, have you removed the hinges, and possibly mixed up pins? sometimes I've noticed the pins can be different dia. right out of the same box in store. I had same problem, slop, but caught it when one pin was too fat to drive in.
Good idea with the string, diagonals. You can probably check by eye since drywall isn't up yet. put your head between studs, if theres room on right side and sight along the jambs, if they don't line up from top down tap bottom plate just like he said.
Get rid of the Jambmaster and don't put cardboard shims behind any hinge leafs.
You've most likely shimmed the upper end of the hinge jamb out of square and the twist is forcing the door open. That would explain the gap at the top, too. The rough opening may have a twist.
The lack of gap at the bottom of the hinge jamb is because there's nothing holding it in alignment - needs a shim and nails.
Remove the top hinge-side shim and see if the door is still sprung. Use a 6-foot level or a straight edge to make sure the hinges are in line and plumb.
Always shim and nail the hinge jamb first, (after checking floor for level to determine if either jamb needs trimming on the bottom) fastening it at each hinge and elsewhere as necessary, then align the top jamb for equal reveal while shimming and nailing the strike jamb, making sure it is fastened at the strike and shimming for equal reveal along its length.
Use tapered shims (the 1-1/2" precut cedar shims are perfect), one from each side at each shimming point to adjust thickness as needed.
When door frame is fully aligned and shimmed and door swings properly, then install a 3" brass screw in place of one screw in upper hinge to anchor unit to framing so it can't sag over time. Don't overdrive or you'll throw off the alignment.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Nice job on making some good display pictures.
Couple of simple starter steps.
Pull door off and put an eye on it to make sure it doesn't have a big hook in it.
Check all the hinge mortise to see that they are all the same depth and the butts are set in to full depth.
Then check the left stud for plumb now check the right for plumb. They can both be plumb but not in plane, that's what the cross string can't show if they are both plumb.
It looks like ? maybe the rt top is not plumb but it could be the door. If the door is straight and both studs are plumb the door will plumb with the jamb.
then if you need to spring the bottom hinge for gap you can use a nail set in between and gently spring the hinge. Care because you can pull the screws out if its make believe wood.
Jambmaster jig ? is that the deal that you router the shims to plane and then slip the door in place?
Yes, that's what the Jambmaster is. And both my contractor and I are impressed with the quality of its construction. Due to the mistake I made with it with this door, I can't claim to know whether it works or not.
In addition to the mistake I mentioned, you have to be careful not to disturb the Jambmaster once you position it. It's not that it's easy to disturb; it's just that it was the first time I had used it and it took me quite a while to get everything right (the blocks that you glue in place and route down, etc.). It will go much, much faster when I redo it, and I will be careful not to disturb it (and to route all the blocks while it is still in place).
I appreciate all the input I got here. I'm not dismissing anyone's advice.
I just want to start over and give the Jambmaster a full chance to help with the process. If that doesn't solve my problem, then I know that I need to look at the hinges next. I'll replace them because there is so much slop in them. If that doesn't work, I'll look at shimming the hinges with cardboard as suggested by a poster above.
If that doesn't work I'm going to drive down to the beach, chain myself to the Jambmaster, and jump off the pier.
Don't for get to check the door to make sure it's straight.
I just picked up a couple 2 days ago and had to sort tru about 10 to get 3.
Here's a good article and go down about halfway and it has some of the good tips on tweeking door installs.
http://www.jlconline.com/public/articles/1999/9908/9908hang.pdf
From your pictures I can see that the weight of the door is pulling the hinge knuckles of the door leaf away from the jamb leaf at the top and middle hinges. There seems to be a lot of slop in the hinges due to undersized pins. I'll bet that if you grabbed the door at the latch side edge and pushed, you could get it to move noticeably at the hinges.
Replacing the hinges with better quality ones would be best, but John Cujie's solution of shimming the front (near the pin) edge of the jamb leaf of the bottom hinge to create a bigger gap between door and jamb will work.
The gap is wider at the hinge side top than the latch side top as well. Shimming the back edge of the jamb leaf of the top hinge will pull the top of the door closer to the hinge-side jamb to help correct those uneven gaps and prevent sticking in later years when paint builds-up on the latch side.
With a heavy door, I like to replace one of the screws in the top hinge with a 3" screw driven into the stud so as to prevent the weight from pulling the jamb out of line at the top.
Hi Bruce,
Yes, that is my assessment of the hinges, too. They are way too sloppy. And I know the door's weight is an issue in the sense that if they were hollow core I'll bet the doors would be easier to get in there properly. So maybe I'll try replacing the hinges first.
The doors are all straight, though I will check them again. They seem to be of good quality. But the hinges are a different story. And the jambs, too. The "wood" that the jambs are made of is too flexible. It's cheap cr*p. Also, I noticed that the dimensions of the jambs vary on doors that are the same size (the slabs don't vary, just the jambs). I'm beginning to wonder if prehung is even the way to go if you can only expect this (lack of) quality.
"I'm beginning to wonder if prehung is even the way to go if you can only expect this (lack of) quality."Quality of both types vary. I recently installed a $4000 custom entry door that came pre-hung, but with high quality components. Swapping out the hinges for better quality ones is not difficult. You can do them one at a time with the doors still in place, but do use one 3" screw in the top hinge.
BruceT
I will add my .02
First pull the door out of the frame. Now use either a straight edge or plumb line and adjust the top and bottom of the frame to a straight line that coincides with the frame where the hinges are.
A shim at the top on the hinge side to move the frame to the latch side.
A smaller shim at the bottom that when the frame is pulled tight to it aligns the frame . right now your hinge side of the frame has the top one way and the bottom the other.
Then if things still don't work (after hanging and trying the door again) lay a straight edge on the floor and draw a line from jamb leg to jamb leg. Now lay a square on that line and against the jambs stop on the hinge side .
Measure on both sides of the stop to the jamb, measurement should be exactly the same. It is quite possible you have twisted framing or a twisted jamb and you aren't seeing it.
Doesn't take much of a twist to make the door hinge bound.
Might also snap a line on the floor starting a few feet back from the door on the hinge side and exactly parallel to the wall, extend the line out past the door opening by a few ft. measure for parallel to the wall on the other side of the door opening. This will tell you if the wall is misaligned across the door opening.
Edited 2/26/2008 1:10 am by dovetail97128
Here's a pertinent read on the JLC forum:
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39985
If I read you right the doors you’re talking about weigh a lot more than a normal door, and that’s one of your problems. I worked with something like masonite doors on a 22000 square foot house and the biggest ones where so heavy that I brought in a bathroom scale, and a couple of the 9 foot ones weighed in at over 160 lbs. You need to run a long screw into the framing for the top hinge... and maybe for the others as well. You can fool around with the torque on those long screws to adjust the strike side reveal.
Some people swear by a 3 degree bevel on both sides of the door to prevent hinge binding, and to make sure it will close after multiple layers of paint... but some people, some of the time, get the bevel backwards. I did it on the last door I installed and I had exactly the same problem that you are having. The client there was the inverse of picky so I fixed it by gluing 3/64x3/8 shims under the door hinges on the barrel side.
Check your doors with a combination square. The edges should either be square or tapered down on the close side.
Edited 2/28/2008 7:44 pm ET by Huplescat
Clearly the hinge pins are undersized, or the hinges are opening up. You need new hinges.
Remove pins and door from jamb.Check the head for level. Cut a spreader that is notched for the door stop and is exactly the same width of the head opening. Place the spreader on the floor.Raise the hinge side til the head is level.Shim behind the jamb until the jamb is square and snug against the spreader.Nail the lower portion of the jamb above and below the shims .Repeat on lockside. Shim the top of portion of side jambs,nail above and below shims. Hang door, iop margin should be correct.Use at least two long screws in the top hinge. Shim the jambs to a nice margin and nail.
If the door stop binds ,remove it and renail or if it just slightly binds,tap it back with a thin block of wood and a hammer with the door open.Because the labor at the door companies is poorly paid the workmanship reflects this. The hinge mortices are rarely done correctly,jambs stapled together out of alignment,mortices for lock done incorrectly etc.I charged the same for prehung as stock doors and jambs when I was in business. If the prehung was made correctly ( rare) it's a 20 minute job at most. Because I had so many problems with prehung junk I charged the same as for stock door and jamb.Stock jambs, made up in my shop took less then 10 minutes to mill.This included morticing for hinges,bevel the jambs and priming if needed. It might take closer to 30 minutes if I was only doing one door, but I usually had at least 8 to do at a time.
mike