So hey…
How many of you are “production framers?”
and just what type of framing techniques are you using that contribute to high speed and efficiency?
I guess I’m mostly asking those speed framers that actually work on a square foot basis. And, if ya could, where abouts in the USA are you working that is busy enough to keep production-framing crews busy?
thanks.
***EDIT – Thanks for the great responses and suggestions. Can I put ’em in a book? 🙂
Edited 3/20/2004 4:27 pm ET by petmonkey
Edited 3/20/2004 4:29 pm ET by petmonkey
Replies
We are in KY, and lots an lots of sq. ft. are being done everyday..to achieve production level, a tractor helps, as does a willing mule. The techniques involve dropping the plow, then a discer..plant, and keep the weeds down..WAAAAIITT...you said..FRAMING..OOOPPS..mybad..I was thinking it said FARMING..Aixelsid again..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I can't imagine why any framer would price stuff by the square foot. Seems nuts to me. Good way to go broke.
The truss plant I work for ships roof trusses for about 5 houses a day to the St. Louis area. Lots of production framers down there. There are also a lot around Chicago. Don't know about any other areas.
You can do it anyway you want to as long as you do it my way first.
I think you need to edit your post a little to something like " a good framer who cares about square, plumb and on layout will go broke "
a piece work framer or sq.ft framer can make ok money adn work year round if the market is there and a general that does not care.
I know I have been there at the framer end of a cheap general " get it up as fast as you can"
this generals secret, adn still is cause he still at it, is the drywallers ( like bondo guys in a body shop), the trim guys and lots of little fancy eye catching crap.
I don't agree.
Pricing by the square foot means you've made no effort to figure out what your actual labor costs are.
I think pricing ANYTHING by the square foot is wrong. (Except carpet)Performance will continue to outsell Promise.
Hi Boss.
I would tend to disagree regarding the aversion to sf pricing by most smaller (less than 4 or 5 houses per year) custom home builders. Keep in mind, that the VAST majority of homes being purchased and built in the USA are "stock" or semi-custom homes that are priced by the square foot with every option priced separately. This includes super high end structures (million plus) provided by companies such as toll brothers.
The masons are working by the block; the roofers by the square; footers by the lineal foot; rockers by the sf; concrete by the sf; flooring including carpet, linoleum and hardwood by the sf; counter tops and cabinets by the lf.
Milled log homes (nice ones - not abe lincoln's log cabin) are all sold by the sf and many of the builders price them by the sf (which, I have to agree with you on this one, is just CRAZY).
So it doesn't seem a far stretch to provide square foot (or piece work) production framing costs to these large scale home builders. In fact, they won't sub work out any other way.
As a disclaimer -- I know that the majority of these homes are not what we'd call "fine homebuilding," but it's not due to the production rates, it's due to a lack of qualified or conscientious skilled labor.
:) -- as an additional aside -- There is an outfit called MI homes herein central Ohio. They do "cardboard & plastic" houses. However, one of my guys who went to work for them said that if there were any questions regarding the structural integrity or quality of the sub's work, MI homes would make them tear it down and start over. As opposed to a house we're working on right now.
Have you read this? It's a web page by Jerrald Hayes about square foot estimating.
http://paradigm-360.com/WhitePapers/SFEstimating.htmlMy car is like my Wife, if it ain't yours don't touch it
Hi Boss - and good point on the article.
The reason given in the article mirror my own thoughts on providing a square foot bid price on log home construction. It would just be a wild guess.
Both you and the author of that article are 100% correct regarding square foot estimating of projects that require multiple disciplines.
However, notice the author has given "per unit costs" of EVERY aspect of his bid. Every stair tread, footer, lineal foot of lumber etc. is fully covered in his bid. Therefore, in my mind, each individual portion of the project could be bid per unit specifications.
So actually, both the author of the article, and me are saying the exact same thing. Notice he bids his "deck framing" at a sf cost.
So... if a house is broken down into it's components, it seems perfectly logical that the framing could be bid per square foot. An assumption that the article you mentioned seems to be agreeing with.
Now, obviously, if there are extenuating circumstances, such as complex framing, complicated engineering specs etc. the cost would need to reflect that. But for typical framing on semi custom or stock homes? No problem.
As always - thanks for the input.
***EDIT - Great web site btw (360 software) he seems to have a bunch of useful info and software.
Edited 3/20/2004 4:36 pm ET by petmonkey
Petmonkey,
It's a shame that no one has responded to the questions you asked. That happens all the time :-)
I'm not a production framer, BUT that doesn't mean that my crew can or should take forever to frame a house. Right now we are extremely busy and we are putting up homes (custom) as fast as we can. That doen't mean that we are going at warp speed and ignoring quality.
We just finished a house and our framing costs were 35% less than we did it last year. It was a 2800 sq home with a stick framed roof (10-12 & 12-12 combo). We completed the framing in just over 12 days. It is a very very clean job. We have a lot of pride in this house.
Ok, I'm not braggin here. I'm just giving some context for the comments I have for speeding things up.
1) Guys who all want to work
2) A lead guy who will lead and that the guys will respect
3) Planning
4) tools
Good tools make all the difference. We use the PLS 5 to square our mudsill and every floor above it. Tools like an impact wrench to tighten down mudsill, an assortment of saws. We have a 10" Bigfoot w/swing, a 14" BigBoy, an 8 1/4" Skil modified for a 9" blade (easy saw to handle and cuts 2 plates at once), a good chainsaw with a good sharp chain, good recip saws (just bought a new Hilti and love it). Tools should be reliable and in good working order. I use a layout stick to mark studs ( and no you don't have accumulative error if you are careful).
This is the way I set up my crew. It is myself and one other journeyman and 2 brand new young guys who work 3 days a week.
I spend enough time studying the plans so I can come up with a good plan for that day. I start out the day by setting a goal that is reachable only if we all work hard. It should be one that you can acheive and maybe pass. When we do that, everyone feels that they accomplished something. I set up the journeyman to cut all headers, trimmers, cripples. I do all layout. The new guys do all the nailing. One of them starts scattering studs while the other builds corners. It doens't take too long to build the corners. I have both new guys frame on the same wall if it is big or we need to get it up and out of the way. Once I finish layout, I grab a gun and help frame, or sheathe or top plate or whatever needs to be done.
In my opinion, speed comes from efficiency and when everyone has a desire to work. After that, there are a lot of techniques that can speed things up without affecting quality. We use a saw that can cut through 2 or more peices when we cut trimmers or cripples (make sure the blade is square to the baseplate). We use a chainsaw to cut joists when they lap. You can cut them while they are banded. This is not a hack thing to do. Let's say that your joists need to be a minimum 12' 6" You can mark 12'7 or 12'8 and cut them all with the chainsaw. It's ego if you get upset that your joist lap past the wall 1". That does not matter as far as quality.
Today, it was just myself and a new guy and we framed and sheathed all the outside walls on the house we are on and framed all the inside walls in a 9hour day. I think the deck was about 1300 sq. We didn't kill ourselves, but we worked hard and had a good system going.
I'll try to think of some other techniques we use, but it really comes down to a desire to work and organization.
Sorry for the length of this post ;-)
Thanks for the reply TIM -
Yeah, I've noticed that when questions are asked, we often have to wade through posts that don't really address the original question.
Of course, then there is always the "knee jerk" response whenever "production" methods are mentioned. Apparently because it is absolutely impossible to achieve a square and plumb structure if you do it efficiently and rapidly. (sarcasm)
I've been non-production framing on smaller projects for about a decade now - just long enough to realize that I've been an idiot for not learning new and more efficient methods before now. This year I checked into some techniques by Larry Shaun & others, and the results have been AMAZING!
I definitely agree with your crew setup - Now, instead of trying to make up time by doing much of the framing myself, I spend a lot more time planning, measuring, and double checking. Then I place each person on the task he is most capable of performing. Awesome results!
As far as the location of "production framing," that is billed by the square foot, I know that it takes place in specific regions all over the USA. Columbus OH, Tampa FLA, Atlanta GA. I was just looking for additional areas where there are "framing specific" crews, working for large scale home builders.
Thanks again for the input TIM - and with all the long posts in BT that revolve around subjects having ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with home building - I wouldn't worry about the length of replies that actually provide useful info.
Edited 3/20/2004 8:33 am ET by petmonkey
Petmonkey,
Pet, I am not a production framer but I have done a lot of framing and I also know a lot of guys who do nothing but framing. I would concur with most everything Tim told you but I would add that a chopsaw is awfully handy for framing
I usually set up mine on the deck in a convenient spot with a long two by ten serving as a support on the left side. doing this you can cut two plates at once ( which I prefer to do after they are tacked together and laid out. This assures absolutely square ends on the plates
Haven't tried the layout stick as Tim mentions but I may give it a try on the next house. I have always been concerned about accumulated error but if Tim says it can be done accurately if you are careful I don't doubt him. I have too much respect for him to doubt him. He is only twenty six but he has already learned more than most carps will ever know.
another thing that helps is to have a couple of aluminum planks handy and some sort of scaffold bucks that are quick to set up
not to mention an adequate assortment of stepladders as well as extension ladders.
As Tim said tools help a lot .
One thing not mentioned that is extremely important is having adequate power available on the site. Most temporary services just don't provide the amperage to run a compressor and a saw or two at the same time. If you can get the people you work for to give you two breakers on the pole of at least twenty amps each it helps alot
Failing that then it pays to have a gasoline compressor instead of electric.
also you need to be in a constant state of analysis in how the day went and what could be done better. I have spent my share of time lying awake at night solving problems in my head or trying to come up with ways to do things quicker and better.
Tim touched on planning....... you cannot overemphasize this point. Every house is different and sometimes the same technique used on one is not as efficient on the next . Things like site conditions , where the material is stacked , and a whole host of other things can enter into it and planning is critical . Along the same line so is flexibility, because it may be more efficient to change the order in which you do certain things from house to house. That said it is still more efficient to try and complete as much of one task as possible before moving on to the next.
just my thoughts.
Mark
Prof,
I forgot about the miter saw. When the weather is nice we set up a sliding compound miter saw. It does make a difference in terms of quality. It's easy for repetitive stuff to get off when you aren't careful, but with the miter saw you can be fast and accurate.
Good planks and sawhorses help too. We have 2 of the bronco sawhorses and with the plank it can make nailing sheatheing off easier ( no up and down the ladder), or nailing joists to a beam and hangering them (unless you put the hangers on before lifting the beam). We have a lot of hardware to install. The Paslode postive placement nailer is a must. A couple of weeks ago I put 50 joist hangers on a 6 3/4 x 21 Big Beam (tradename) in about 30 minutes. I remember the days of handnailing and bleeding ;-(
In my opinion, with good organization and planning, you can get more done without having to kill yourself working. Good post by the way. Pretty much everything I learned is from guys like you posting.
Hey Tim,
You are welcome for the comments. I kind of thought you probably use a chopsaw at times especially since I have looked at the pics of your work you posted on another forum. You remind me a lot of myself when I was your age (and I am still that way now) .... to wit... not being afraid to learn from others and also eagerly seeking knowledge. I have found over the years that it is possible to learn from an absolute butcher who has one good idea. If he does and it works I am not too proud to take it. I know you are the same way. Doesn't mean you sacrifice quality at all.
I don't agree with Larry Haun on everything but I have a lot of respect for the man and once again I am willing to learn from him. He does have some good ideas although I think a lot of them are geared to building the same basic houses over and over again.
The point is that production techniques in and of themselves do not necessarily mean a reduction in quality and sometimes they actually contribute to it. As an example ...... Gang cutting rafters all at the same time ( as I have seen in a couple of your photos) is far more accurate than marking and cutting them one at a time
However that is also an example of having the right tools to do the job, like your saw with the swing table.
to sum up it is wise to always be learning and always be flexible. Otherwise the world will pass you by.
I don't mean to suck up or swell your head but I do have a lot of respect for you especially to be where you are at your age. It shows a lot of ability and initiative on your part
Later
Mark
Mark,
You can't swell my head. You know why? Because I am a goon. Yesterday I told Bryant (new guy who works for us) that not one of the top plates had been nailed on incorrectly. So far everything had been perfect. No miss marks, not backwards partitions or channels. As I'm saying that, I nail on the top plate in the wrong spot and it's like the last wall :-) He just shook his head and laughed. And here I'm supposed to be teaching him how to frame correctly.
I do appreciate your comments. Remember last year when I gave you that link to the thread at JLC about beveling blind valleys? Well you have to go back. This guy came back. You should have read what he wrote about me. Not pretty, but kind of funny in a way. Stop by and check it out.
One thing about the layout stick, make sure it doesn't get bent. I had one that did and layout got way off. I do use it for outside walls, but some guys don't like too because the walls are long and the layout could get off for sheathing. I've only had the problem once. It's great for inside walls.
Oh yeah, and those Stabila plate levels are a great tool to have. I learned to basic frame (basic layout; windows and doors keep all layout square) who used a 4' level to plumb everything up to about 10'. Just irks me he still does it. Not on my crew anymore thank goodness.
Tim,
I have been following the thread in JLC since it started, it is amazing . This guy just is an idiot , that is all there is to it. I almost posted to him to tell him he is a fool but then thought the better of it. I am blown away by your patience with him and even more by Ken Drake. I would have blown up on the guy long ago. He is one of those guys who just can't be confused with facts, his mind is made up. He has a mind like concrete........ permanetly set and all mixed up.
On another note he had mentioned a website you supposedly recommended regarding a short course in trig. If there is actually such a site would you please post it here? I think a lot of guys here would be interested in that. I did take some trig in high school but it has been so long that I need a refresher course. Most of the time just using Pyhthagoren therom does the job but there are uses for trig as you so well know and I need to brush up on it. I would appreciate the link if there is one. Thanks
Mark
Here's the link to "Dave's Short Trig Course".
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/trig/
Just figured if Tim might be out you might want to go to the website now. I'm sure Tim wont Beat me up since I gave you the link ;-)
Joe Carola
Hey Joe,
thanks for the link, I really appreciate it. How's things going out on the coast? Framing any interesting ones lately? How's your little guy? Mine is sitting here watching me type and eating crackers . Turns five on monday so we had his birthday party tonight since it is my weekend to have him. He sure is precious. My ex filed last may and when you posted those pics last June it about broke my heart. She played all kinds of games and it took a long time to get to see him regularly but I have him now. Hope you are doing good.
Later
Mark
Your welcome! Any time Mark. It's going pretty good even with this crazy winter. No interesting framing but we did a lot of exterior trim and cedar siding. I also trimmed the whole interior of the house. I enjoy that also. The kitchen addition that we did I framed a tray ceiling and went back and boxed out beams with 1x6 and 1x4 around all the hips and the top perimeter of the tray and down the rafters and in between we ran crown molding and the electrician ran lights inside. It came out really nice.
My little guy is doing great. Thanks for asking. He'll be 6 in August. He's my whole life as I'm sure your son is yours. I say to him"I don't care what you say Joey" and he says "I know Daddy, you love me so much and I'm your best friend". Then I chase him and kiss him until it turns into a wrestling match.
Sorry about you and your wife. Just hope it works out for you and especially your son. I'm glad to here that you see him. I hope it stays that way.
Stay well Mark.
Joe Carola
Joe,
I used the word goon in a previous post and was hoping you would come out of hibernation :-) Everytime I see or hear the word goon, I think of Joe Fusco (Joe F. if you read this ahahahahahaah).
How have you been? I've been meaning to call you and see how you are doing, but everytime I think about doing it, it's late here on the west coast. I've been talking to Joe about you though. Hope your ears are burning ;-)
I'm glad you posted that link. I was out tonight. I was at my parents. My sister is pregnant (due in July) so we've been spending a lot of time with them.
I hope you and your family are doing well. I hope you chime in around here more often. I've missed you man :-)
Sorry that this post is off-topic. I'm a goon what can I say?
Tim, You GOON.........................;-)
Joe's the original GOON, I gave him that name.
I'm glad your doing well and it sounds like your family is also with the good news about your sister being pregnant, congratulations to her. I'm staying out of trouble, as I told Mark we did alot of exterior trim and siding and also interior trim this winter which was good.
I'll keep in touch. Right now I'm going to play the HULK Joey and then it's Full Contact from there... ;-)
Joe Carola
Prof,
Today we gang cut most of the upstair rafters on the house we are on. Another framer at Joe's site, John, has been trying to get me to do it. He sent me some pics and today we cut nearly all the rafters, hip jacks included.
It'll take a bit to get some bugs worked out, but I think this will be the way we do it from now on. I think once everyone on my crew gets it, we'll be flying.
Today it was 78°.
By the way, don't laugh, but I'm the dork in the white hat. Good thing I'm married :-)
Hey Tim<
Looks good and definitely faster and more accurate than doing them one at a time. Like your idea of tacking a two by four to guide the saw base against for the pitch cuts.
Regarding the hat.... I wouldn't feel too bad about that. It is the same type of hat I wear in hot weather. Baseball caps just don''t get it for me. Besides I have to be careful since I am one of those "folically impaired guys. Seriously though my father in law who is one of the nicest guys I know (UNlike my ex) but that is another story, is in the final stages of melanoma and probably won't make it more than another few weeks. Kind of brings it home when it hits that close. Bottom line....... don't let anyone bother you about the hat. It isn't thier life nor any of their business.
Later dude .... thanks for the pics.
by the way .... do you think chippy finally got the message?
I haven't seen him respond after several of us challenged him.
Mark
Prof,
Chippy will never get the message. He has now passed the point of no return. He will fight even if he ever realizes he's wrong. Thanks for your post by the way.
I'm sorry to hear about your father in law.
Hey Tim -
I just got back in this afternoon from hanging about 150 joist hangers. :)
Both hands have slices from the hangers, and my left thumb had an argument with the hammer head. Of course, it was pouring rain and the job site is wide open to a wicked wind.
I looked at the paslode positive placement a few weeks back and thought - gee, wouldn't that be nice? But then I couldn't decide between the Paslode and the bostitch multi purpose nailer. So there I was - nailing by hand just like always.
Just reiterates your point regarding having the correct tools.
My hands have taken such a beating over the last few weeks. I'm in that stage of the year where I stop wearing gloves because it isn't as cold or wet, and my hands are as soft as a . . . .which the wife loves :-), but means they get cut on everything.
Get a hanger nailer. I am pleased with the Paslode. We've had it for about 3 years now and use it all the time. It is a little heavy. I've heard good things about the Hitachi too. We have the Bostich gun, but the 2 we have (one old and one new) aren't very reliable. But they are a nice gun. We may have just gotten a couple of lemons.
Funny story using the Paslode. Last year at this time we were doing a house that was all I-joists. Had a million beams and hangers. I was nailing this hanger into a glulam that must have been made of petrified wood. This was a heavy duty hanger I was nailing. I didn't get the little probe into the hole and the gun recoiled because it couldn't drive the nail into the metal. Like and idiot, I've got my head right behind the gun. It slams into my forehead. Good thing I've got a thick skull :-) Anyway, there are 4 screws that hold the plastic back on the gun. I had a round mark on my forehead with a nice clear phillips head groove in the middle. I was so mad. No one saw it and I pulled my had over the mark and saw stars for the rest of the day :-)
Lesson learned.
Hiya Prof. how's our campaign coming?
;)
You hit the big three for me, Tools, Planning, and Analysis
I am definitely not a proiduction framer. I'm a remodelor so I only get to frame up a house once every year or two, plus a couple of additions.
I never hestitate to invest in the right tools or make sure they are on the job. Chop saws, Proctor wall jacks, nail guns...
planning - The lead man needs to know exactly what is going to happen. He should be the one who orders up the lumber package, or the 2x4s ordered for long plates will be used for chop work and the rafters will be part of the floor and the truck will be making another run to the job...
I make a list the night before of # of each length stud, nember and size of all headers, jacks, corners etc. We set up a xhop station and everything gets started into cut and assembly while I am lying out the deck and plates. Everyone has a specific job and sometimes each guy is so busy at his job that he doesn't realize how much is really happening until three days later when he stands back and says, "Wow, how did we get so much done? I wasn't even working all that hard" It's actually happened.
Analysis - Every production minded person in the world does this. I am now more detail oriented than production oriented because of doing custom work, but I learned this way back when doing roofing. A shingle layer who hand nails shingles every day can out work a carpenter with ####pheumatic coil gun any day and make it look easy, because he has absolutely no wasted movements. He has studyed himself and his own body mechanics and refined them like a kung fu master driving a strw through a stone like it was water. Focus on the work at hand brings efficiency. Let the miond wander and it becomes a matter of familiarity breeding contempt and then waste creeps in.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hey Piff,
Campaign isn't too good right now as I have had other things on my mind(like this divorce for instance). Just took my boy home this evening and he cried when I dropped him off, clung to me hollering " I want to stay with you dad etc" It just breaks my heart. Every week gets worse that way but until the court battle is over I am stuck with it. My ex is bi-polar and refuses to get help or admit it. Isn't much you can do with someone like that.
Good post in regard to your comments, I believe we think alike on a lot of things. I have done more than my share of remodeling and additions and I agree that planning and analysis are an absolute must or you will go broke.
Personally I don't believe there is such a thing as too many tools so I agree with you there. I am not doing much remodeling now as I prefer custom specs instead. No customers to deal with or waste your time and if you are good at design and build a superior product they will sell.
The same techniques apply to them as well though and the quicker you get them done the better. My hardest problem is keeping the help " with the program" as I do so many different things on a house they have a hard time. I am efficient but they are not. so planning is even more important
One thing not mentioned so far is the need to analyize your help and delegate according to their strengths and weaknesses. Some guys are better at certain things. And of course some are just plain dumb. LOL they don't last long
Good to hear from you Piffen I'm afraid I have been doing more lurking than posting the last several months.
Later
Mark
Really sorry to hear about the family thing. My first wife had a psychosis problem so I know it hurts more than words can describe. I feel for you and the little guy, Mark.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
pet... one of the reasons you get few responses ( i was hoping tim would jump in)..is because there are very few "production framers" out there...
we frame all the time.. but there is no way we could ever bid a job that would wind a frame for us.... you have a specialty trade...
we can form, pour, frame, insulate, drywall, trim, finish , paint and roof... and we are about half as efficient as
( geesh. if only we are at least half as efficient.. would you believe 1/3 ?)
any one of those trades.. but the scope of our work usually means thta on small jobs , it is more efficient for us to do most of those things ourselves..
watching a good framing crew cruise thru is like watching a ballet.. quite the show.. especially when the boss cares.. more power to you guysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I would like to apologize for an earlier comment that I made in saying that a production framer does not care about square etc.
this was out of line to generalize
I shluld have said that some production framers are hacks and work for a hack general contractor. A person is only as good as ther boss and the expectations placed on them. If no one carees about them being a hack, they will be a hack to make money. If the general is a slob or does not care , why should the minimum wage framers that he hires care. That is true in any profession any sub trade
but again I should not have generalized my comments about production frramers and..................
I apoologize to people like timuhler
timuhlers comments and suggestions prove that there are qualtiy framers out there who do care and who can make a living. His suggestions would help a lot of framers, both production and "non-production". His numbered 4 steps are 100% right on
I do not persoally know tim, but I do know a few production framers that are good people and do care about ther work
the comments and suggestions that tim makes are good and valid and I do hope that they help others out
and tim, I apologize and should not have spoken without thinking
hammertime,
I didn't take offense at your post, but it sure says a lot about your character that you would make that post for any who might have been offended.
Let's be honest, there are a lot of production guys who don't care about quality. Not all, but many.
I know a finish carpenter that spent a lot of time in and near tracts in CA and AZ. He can tell you some stories. I just can't believe some of them. The custom home market doesn't allow that to happen as often, but those tracts are something else.
A young guy that worked with us a few years ago works for a company that is owned by Weyhauser and they put together, what are basically panelized homes as fast as they can. He cuts sheathing by "eye" (the 8' length!) and brags about it. He "eyeballs" the compound miter for birdblocks at hips or valleys. I mean this guy and his crew sound like the production framers from hell!
Anyway, I appreciate your post. In every field there are guys (gals) who want to be the best they can and there are others who don't. Great thing about forums like this is that it tends to be the former who frequent and that is where I have stolen all my ideas :-) I don't have an original bone in my body. I just steal :-)
Wish you had framed my house, not the guy that's still working on mine. But he MUST be good, he has 7 other homesand 2 remodels going on at the same time. With 3 crews, I think. Not including at least 7 more waiting in line(from what I have been told.
He's probably doing a really good job. And everyone is so busy right now. It's hard not to take extra work, because it won't last forever.
I live in the Treasure Valley of Idaho. Thats around Boise, the capital. Southwest corner of the state. Every contractor in the area wants a square foot bid. The houses run the whole gamut from cracker boxes to million dollar mansions. I'm running a small crew, 3 men beside myself. I keep busy year round and there are LOTS of framers doing the same thing here. The money isn't as good as it could be, but I've supported my family for lots of years by framing, trimming and cabinet work. I usually do higher end homes, working for three contractors. I know I can't compete with the slammers who knock out a starter home in two or three days. I bid the framing and siding and the contractors I work for hire me for the quality of the work I do, not the speed. They realize I won't be as fast with a smaller crew, but I'll be square and plumb and the walls will be straight.
On a church tornado relief project in Tennessee in January, there was a guy who is a contractor/lead carpenter who does "inexpensive" houses in rural Minnesota. He easily worked twice as fast as anyone I've seen before.
From what I could tell, besides general skill and energy, he had a few rules:
1) Never use a hand tool. Not sure I saw him touch a hammer the entire week.
2) When in doubt, tear it out. This applies to the sort of repair work we were doing, more than new construction, but basically it's a lot easier/faster to tear out and replace than to try to cut and fit to repair what's there.
3) Don't waste time on decisions. Here, of course, it helps to be able to make the RIGHT decisions, but a lot of time can be lost waiting to decide, especially if no one person is willing to take the lead.
4) Control the work flow. He had the concrete ordered for the foundation of a replacement addition before the old addition was halfway demoed. (This was the first day.) Here, of course, it also helps to know what you are doing and to know that you will be able to get the old structure demoed and forms in place in N hours. We also had one person in the group constantly driving back and forth to Lowes so that needed materials were always there when needed.
He wasn't the sort of guy I'd necessarily hire to build a $500K home (if for some strange reason I wanted to do that), but he was the sort who could knock out $100K homes rapidly, with decent quality, and make a reasonable profit.
"We also had one person in the group constantly driving back and forth to Lowes so that needed materials were always there when needed. "
That is one I would consider very wastefull. Proper planning gets the materials there ahead of time -even if some needs to be returned later - and that man stays on site being productive with the rest of the crew. The lumber yard is in business to get the materials on site. I am in business to turn those materials into homes.
Admitedly, I have been forced to think ahead a bit more than the average nail burner, because of living in isolated places, but I hate to think about paying for all that time on the raods, and fuel isn't getting any cheaper.
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>> We also had one person in the group constantly driving back and
>> forth to Lowes so that needed materials were always there when
>> needed. "
>
> That is one I would consider very wastefull. Proper planning gets the
> materials there ahead of time -even if some needs to be returned
> later - and that man stays on site being productive with the rest of
> the crew. The lumber yard is in business to get the materials on
> site. I am in business to turn those materials into homes.
You don't have the full picture here. We arrived on site Monday morning, having never seen the place before and only having vague descriptions of it. The front section was basically sound except that the roof was half gone, it needed new windows, new siding, an new door, and (as it turned out) there was significant rot in several places. The back section was a shed addition that was pretty much blown away by the tornado. In fact, the owner had already started tearing it down.
By Thursday evening the rear additon was torn down, rebuilt (on a new foundation), the entire building reroofed and resided with new windows and doors. Replumbed, with several areas of bad rot repaired in the old part (though several remained). Would have done the rock on Friday except the electrician couldn't get done in time. This was with a crew of 10, only one of whom was a true professional.
But that one pro knew what he was doing (and knew how to delegate), so there was rarely a wasted motion, despite the fact that there was no way to have planned anything in advance.
I see, that's hardly the typical production framing situation. When we are in repair and remodel mode, things change drastically
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Yeah, I agree it wasn't normal production framing. But the guy applied his production framing skills and and kept the project moving smoothly. I've been on many other projects (Habitat, etc) where things didn't move 1/10th as fast, partially because of "planning paralysis".
I make my living selling to production framers.. That means in southern Minnesota there are enough production framers to support not only myself but several other salesmen who do the same thing.. I call on an average of 5 to 6 framers per day and have been doing so for the past 12 years..
They can make a living building home frames because they become quick at doing the job.. A typical framer will spend three to four days framing the typical 2500 sq.ft. house.. They do it with an average of three guys and often only build a few differant designs...
It's down to a science.. They have the equipment to do it quickly and efficently and as well or better than anybody else.
To do so requires a whole series of special equipment. Nail guns and etc. are sort of the beginning. Rough terrain telescopic forklifts are required if you want to be competetive and having the whole crew knowing what steps are called for and when. No one stands around waiting to be told what to do, the short cuts are well known and production framing techinques result in an accurite a building.
Are there a few guys who try it who aren't qualified? sure but they quickly fail..
Sq. foot basis quotes are normal to these guys.. around here there are a few guys building simple ranches for around 5 dollars a sq. but the two storey walk-outs seem to get around $8 to $9 and sometimes more if it's a wierd enough home.. $15 is not unknown and I've seen a few guys get dramatically more than that..
One observation from a non-carpenter: I would guess that the real high-speed production framing can only occur on fairly conventional structures where you don't have to stop every 30 seconds to read the blueprints. Ie, you're turning out tract homes (or the moral equivalent) that are, if not all the same, all built the same way, with relatively few odd angles and special feature.
Not true,
framers, ie; guys who make their living by framing only are fairly normal here.. Most custom built homes are built by framers and almsot all apartments/ townhouses/Condo's etc. are framed by framers..
In my estimation less than10% of the homes are built by someone who does the whole job from start to finish..
I can understand why too. If you have a trim carpenter mentality you will sux at building a frame quickly and with with a framers mentality you will sux at trim work.. Tolerances in framing are differant than tolerances in trim work..
Every Framer that I know goes banana's when he see's a typical do-it-all's approach towards framing.. They seem to take three times as long to frame and there seems to be a lot of "repair" work involved.. I don't know if it's the added time when the frame is exposed to weather or the added time causing 2x's to dry out and warp and pull things out of line..
I will say that watching a framer build a house and then seeing a do-it-all guy frame the same house I would much rather live in the framers house..
I suspect the do-it -all guy deludes himself into thinking he's building quality that a framer doesn't but since I go into sooo many homes I will say that a good framer is at least as good at quality as a good do-it-all.
I'm a diffeant cat entirely because I'm building a timberframe from scratch.. (in my spare time) yet I wish at times I could use the speed that a framers has in building..
Well, been framing in Chicago area about 20 years and every thing is about production.
Depends on the company you are working for at the time.
I will not name names but ,some shoot for man hours.
It should take so many man hours to build this unit,and if you are over hide the hours in another unit,or God help you.
If you are under projected man hours,some outfits give a bonus to the forman,or they lower man hour projections and you bust your azz to try to make the hours.Lets go!!
On large projects,where the units are the same and repeat,have a crew that does the deck, have a crew that does the walls,have a crew that does the roof,and kind of rubberstamp each unit and it turns into an assembly line.
This is how it's done.
I framed in Elgin,Ill. back in 77' or 78', for at that time, the largest Carpenter
Contractor in Chicago. All I did was block out houses for 6 months, start at one end
of the street and work up the road. The way you describe framing , that's exactly
the way things were done, You do one thing day in and day out. It got pretty
monotonous . I was about 18 at the time. Each house had x amount of hours for
each phase that you worked on. I was still green at that time and no matter how
hard I tried (and I really did) I just couldn't make the time that they had allocated. I
was always over by a couple hrs,but since I wasn't making scale they didn't say
much, and maybe because my uncle at that time, was one of the supt.
But if you want to talk about production framing, they had it down to science
I worked as a production framer for most of the eighties in Chico Ca. Our crew was so good and fast that we out competed every one else out of town. We did huge subdivisions for the big three developers in town. The first year I worked for them we had a party in August when we framed our hundreth unit. Every year that day came earlier. By the time I left they were doing at least five hundred units a year. The crew was broken into several specialties. There was a two man layout crew that precut and layed out all the top and bottom plates on a slab typically. The next day a five man framing crew would frame the first floor. All the cripples, sills, headers and trimmers were precut and came with the framing package. The framers would build as many walls on the floor until the place was crowded and then they would stand them up. To only build one wall at a time and stand it up was considered a no no. Most homes could be done with two raises. At the end of the day the framers would plumb and line all the walls. The framing crew would frame all the walls of one 1800 SQ FT house a day. The next day the trusses would come and a crew would stack the roof in a day including California valleys, fill, and blocking. We hand nailed everything with green vinyl sinkers. The compressor didn't show up until the sheeters showed. The next day a sheeting crew would sheet the roof and add the shingle molding. The next day the pickup crew (My crew) would come in and frame chimney chases, skylight wells, soffits, drop cielings and other stuff. Most of our material was the temporary bracing that came down after the roof was nailed off. The same day the siding crew would start the siding. We had very good quality control that was the responsibility of the pickup crew. It was not unusual to have a complete one story shell up in five days. These homes sold for about 100 to 130K back then. They would sell for about 250 to 300K now.
That was hard work. I work by myself mostly these days. I can still sink a 16d in one swat if I want to.
For more than a few years I worked for a company where all we did was frame. Year round. And for a while I ran my own crew. In my area almost every builder wants a SQ FT price. Here is what I have observed. Hope it helps someone.
1. No matter what you do, TOOLS. as a framing crew we always had at least: 1 saw, 1 nailgun, 1 framing square, 1 4' level, two hoses and two cords for each person from laborer to carpenter. Sounds simple but add up all the time you see guys waiting to use a tool. Oh yeah, you may have to force some of them to get thier tools out and not borrow from other guys. Hell we bought them for them they could at least get them out of the truck.
2. Good Tools. No explination needed.
3. Preparation. Be ready in the morning. Don't send your helpers to clean up while you are making a header list if what you really need is headers. you can make lists at night or while the guys are picking up for the day. Or, show up a little early. Make sure you have Gas for the generator and compressor, and nails for the guns. Sucks to have to go out at 10 am for that stuff.
4. I build the thing a hundred times in my head. I have an image of every step and who does what next. makes things flow better.
5. Power ladder. If you don't have the cashflow to justify a lift, try a roofer's power ladder. You would be surprised with a little practice how fast you can get studs and headers to the second floor, ceiling beams up and rafters too. We also used put plywood on the ceiling joists and sheethed from the inside out.
MOST IMPORTANT, Love what you do. If you are only doiing it for a paycheck you will probably never get the most out of it.
Hope someone can use at least one of these
After reading all the posts in this thread I thought I would mention the importance of good comunication within the crew. When everyone knows what the cheif has in mind for the day things seem to go smoother and the newer guys tend to learn more about how the house is built.
When I was doing production framing (Ont. Canada) everyone knew what the plan for the day was and knew what each member was going to work on. It was very easy to know where to lend a hand and keep things moving along. I think this more then anything contributed to the speed of the crew.
Of course air tools may have had a lot to do with the speed ;)