I some of the threads I’ve responded to I’ve found that I as a Handy Do It Yourselfer (a DIYer who can use tools), I have a slightly different approach to various projects than some of the Professionals who post. Things that to me made sense, didn’t to them, and things that made sense to them didn’t to me.
We are all here for a particular reason I think, to improve and share our knowledge in the craftsmanship of living spaces… or Fine Homebuilding if you will. Each of us has different thing to bring to the table, and has seen or done things that when we share can help others more than we know.
There is a difference, I think, between people here who work in the Construction trades and people here who have other professions but still want to work on their homes AND do the best work they can.
Here is how I see some of the differences breaking out:
| Pro | HDIYer |
| Get’s paid for completing a project | Saves money by completing a project |
| Deadlines are critically important | Deadlines are fluid – unless spouses object |
| Experience informs all aspects of a project | Inexperience clouds random aspects of the project |
| Rarely gets major project additions or changes | Gets Changes or additions added on a whim |
| Project scope clearly defined | Project scope amorphous |
| Uses the materials known and trusted | Searches out material best for project |
| Uses the techniques known and trusted | Searches out technique best for project |
| Rarely gets to see handiwork again | Constantly confronted with own handiwork |
Am I way off base here? It seems to me that with such a different mindset and experience level coming to the table, there should be a different project approach for HDIYers than there is for Pros.
Now let me be very clear here, I am NOT saying that the Professional approach to a project is wrong. I’m saying that there are variables in a HDIYer project that just don’t come into play for Pros. And HDIYers, when hiring out Pro work need to know that there is a laser like focus that they do not expect.
Here’s an example: Asbestos abatement
When we bought our home, we knew we had some asbestos problems. We hired an abatement company to come out to do some work, removing drywall and floor tile. These guys were good! Came and left on time, did high quality work, were personable to me and my wife, took time to explain different things. They even left me some of their extra materials for doing small abatement jobs, and took extra care to give me the name of a place where I could get good abatement quality gear. Loved them.
Then, as they were finishing pulling out of the house, the crew leader took a moment to point something out to me that was under the drywall they had just removed:
“See that duct there, with that fibery insulation around it. That’s asbestos, the worst kind too. OK, See ya!” And with that he left. His project was complete, the flooring and the drywall was removed.
While not within the scope of what they were called in to do, I certainly wanted them to take care of that extra little bit, even if it cost me extra. As a HDIYer, I naturally WOULD have done this. That I think is illustrative of a difference.
So what do you think? Is there a difference in how we do or should approach projects?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Edited 6/15/2005 3:02 am ET by xxPaulCPxx
Replies
I agree with you. Even if you make it a little black and white it is a valid generalization.
I can see this most clearly in the construction of my own house. I tried a lot of things in my own house that were new for me. Some worked out and some didn't but I would normally(on a paying job) try to limit experimentation to one or two new materials or techniques per house.
On a paying job we try to get every last item totally done. On my house I have little bits of trim that are not complete after 22 years.
One of your statements I would like to take issue with is that we rarely get to see our handiwork after the project is completed. Granted I live in a rural area but everywhere I go I can see projects that we have done over the course of 25 years. I recently met with a couple about building a large house on the lake. I met them at a little cottage that we had renovated more than twenty years before for another owner. Talk about bringing back youthful memories.
To work backwards a little... you said "These guys were good! Came and left on time," But then you also said you wanted (expected?) them to perform extra work. Granted you were willing to pay for the extra work, but what would have the extra work done to their arrival time for the next job? Would they have left your job on time too? So, if they had of done the extra work, would they no longer have been "good"?
I deal with subcontractors on a daily basis. Now for today's rant: ;-) If there is one thing that pi$$es me off it's guys who don't show up sometime close to when they said (at least within a day or 2) - and I rarely get an "I'm running late" phone call. Although unforeseen circumstances often arise (asbestos on duct) the other side of the coin is that I gotta understand that my sub has made other schedule commitments and may not have time to do extra work "while he is there", and I may have to reschedule for another visit, etc.
Now, I'd like to comment on your table with a few modifications that I think were implied but I think need to be stipulated:
In the pro column I'd like to modify:
Uses materials known and trusted - ones that will yield a good value and keep the project within budget. For example why use a 60 year caulk that costs twice the price just because it is best when you know that this interior painted woodwork is going to be repainted in 5 or 10 years anyway. Sure, I coulda bid the job with the 60 year caulk (and other high$ stuff) but then the job woulda just ended up another "free estimate".
Uses the techniques known and trusted - ones that will yield good results in a reasonable timeframe and keep the project within budget. So, yes, I coulda vacuumed and scrubbed out the stud cavities before installing the drywall, but again, if I hada built that into the bid price the "job" would a ended up just being a free estimate. Or, leme see - maybe I can just do that for free and end up being late for dinner again... since I don't have a life anyway...
So, If you want to remodel your house into a timberframe/SIP, assemble the whole thing with screws, spend a half $mil doing it, and take 4 years, I think that's great and I'd like to see the pics, but let's not put the words "value", "budget" "professional" and "deadline" anywhere in the formula.
I did not want to indicate that I was unhappy in any way with the crew, just illustrate a difference in scope that a pro MUST confine themselves to. The reasons for that confinement are as you said - deadlines, cost, customer expectations, and so many more. I was not saying it was a bad thing, just different than what I would have done in that circumstance had I the DIYer (not the Pro) been the one doing that work.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
I'm not sure that your example aligns well with the point you are trying to convey, and you will probably take more knocks on it.
The underlying difference is incentive.
The incentive for a pro is to complete a project to a level of quality that is acceptable to the client with the best possible profit margin. Marketing 101: Provide a product or service to meet the needs of a target market...
A DIY has a different set of incentives. Their incentives can be very diverse, but here are a couple of examples;
Some are in it simply to save money. This is akin working a second job. With the right level of skill and experience, this can pay rather well, since there are no taxes or compliance costs on your own labor in this case. With the wrong level of skill, it can cost more to DIY (takes too much time, bad results or work that have to be redone, unsafe work, code violations...). One's time might be more valuable applied to one's primary vocation. You would also need to factor in overhead costs, such as tools and equipment, which pros can amortize over many jobs.
Other DIYs are more along the lines of creative control freaks who want things done a certain way, perhaps using materials or techniques that do not prevail in the market. The economics are not the primary motivating factor. They are in it for the satisfaction of creating something that is just exactly the way they want it. There are a lot of these folks on this board. 'Renaissance men' (and a few women), for whom construction-related projects are one of perhaps many avocations practiced.
I might be reading it wrong ,but I don't see that guys point
Pro DIY
income hobby
skilled novice
trained untrained I can award myself with all of those attributes, and as a result , I know I have very little to offer to people with skills different than my own ! Would I ask a plumber how to hang drywall?
Do I tell a carpenter his jacks are not on top of the kings?
I had to put in a new toilet once, am I now a plumber?
Maybe after the second wax ring! Some towns want the service ground run in rigid conduit
Some towns will not allow set screw fittings on EMT,
Some towns do not allow Romex
will the HO know that? I think most DIYers offer advice based on their limited exposure to whatever problem they have encountered on their project, while a Pro encounters problems all day long, time, weather, equipment breakdowns, crew absenteeism, tool theft , other trades, lack of co-ordination, crappy Generals, old drawings, new drawings,
inspectors, revised equipment schedules, and once, the U.S. Coast Guard, no keys, ENGINEERS, vendors, wrong material, no material, somebody elses material, lost drivers, lost prints, owners who should get lost, and of course .. the customer
WHEW
maddog
( the chart at the top was realigned by the computer I guess,
it was to show the difference between pro and diy, at least in my little brain)
Edited 6/15/2005 12:42 pm ET by maddog
That is true, but kind of beside the line of thought I was going for. Mabey the contribution a DIYer brings to the table is novelty that cannot/should not be attempted on paying gigs. Their dabblings and mistakes with new materials or techniques could help others be better informed, whether to look more closely or to stay far away. Other than that, DIYers probably have the most to contribute in talking about their errors so others don't follow!
But I hope I can contribute in other ways as well. I may not know much about building, but I do know how to make my shoes more comfy. If passing on what I know can help Piffin's widdle piddies keep from getting sore on a jobsite, HORAY!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
You are rebuilding your house. Are you doing the electrical? Or does that work have to be done by a licensed electrician? maddog
"I think most DIYers offer advice based on their limited exposure to whatever problem they have encountered on their project, while a Pro encounters problems all day long, time, weather, equipment breakdowns, crew absenteeism, tool theft , other trades, lack of co-ordination, crappy Generals, old drawings, new drawings,
inspectors, revised equipment schedules, and once, the U.S. Coast Guard, no keys, ENGINEERS, vendors, wrong material, no material, somebody elses material, lost drivers, lost prints, owners who should get lost, and of course .. the customer"A large percent of those experiences won't affect the DIYer.And I have seen a many times that the pro also answers from their limited exposure to regional difference is construction practices, different codes (or no codes), no experience with new products, etc.
yeah you are right ! but what may be be a revelation to a DIYer, has probably been seen ad nauseum by the Pro. Some contractors do try new materials and techniques, and they usually are greeted with skepticism. It seems like every job I go to CADDY has a new bracket to play with.
Not everything will stand up to the daily abuse of regular construction,and end up in the bottom of the gang box I have wired exactly two house with rope, everything else has been conduit. I therefore have little to say about installing romex, and have no desire to learn more about it
Maddog,
How about this?
Are all Pro's the same? I know that you are the best and that won't be questioned here, but are all pros up to your standards? Do you think there could be differant levels of "pros" out there?
Is it possible that some Pro's are only Pro's because they get paid?
Is it then also possible that some DIY's out there are better than some pros?
The uncle who used to build cabinets for a living for example doing his own trim work? (or the trim work in his favorite nieces house?)
What about the framer who decides to put up a timberframe since he's always wanted to do so? He's not a pro but will his work be acceptable to "pro's"?
Ted Benson at one time started out doing it himself.. (read about how he engineered his parents home and how marginal it was) Now he writes books and is THE name in timberframing.. but he started out as a DIY.
lemme see, Here are the answers to your questions 1.......no......there are better people than I..... of course, older hands should be wiser than the younger ones2.... yes.3.... if they are better, than they have jumped ship4.... I have always admired trim carpenters and their work5......I am not a carpenter/framer6.....I do not know the first thing about timberframing. I fixed my toilet twice, but, I don't plan on building a wastewater treatment plant soon......OK, that was a joke! The point I have been fumbling to make, regards those DIyers who don't know the first thing about....in my case electricity, crap I don't know all that much about it either, but these folks feel confident enough to tackle this particular beast as if it were just something else they have to do. They might understand the mechanics, but not the problems. They may not have a solid understanding of ALL of the hazards just waiting for them This stuff KILLS people, but , that does not stop some of them frenchy, can you tell me if you have ever heard of a house burning down because of faulty tile work? How about squeaky floors? crummy siding? have you ever heard of anyone being burned by the wrong paint brush? or tarnished faucets maddog
" have you ever heard of anyone being burned by the wrong paint brush?"No but I have heard of many home being burnt down by the results of painters actions."if you have ever heard of a house burning down because of faulty tile work? "I don't remember if the house burnt down or not, but I remember at least one case where a pair of "pros" where seriously burned by their poor tile work.
Maddog,
Electricity..
I could make some smart alex remark here but I won't simply because you asked me honestly and have earned an honest answer..
I originally was scheduled to become an electronic technician in the Navy until they found out I scored high enough in their tests to go thru the NESEP program.. While they waited for a space for me I took all of the classes and have worked with voltages few electricians ever have..
We used to call electricians one wire techs. Troubleshooting a radar or ECM unit is a little tougher than finding a short or open.. Anyway a few decades later and I was selling equipment to electricians (scissors lifts and manlifts etc. ) I spent enough time with them to learn to respect them and the tough work they do..
Yes problems with wiring can and have caused buildings to burn and people to get hurt. I myself was put at risk when somebody back wired a circuit that was supposed to be dead and I got a nice jolt of 220 standing in the rain with my foot on a cast Iron drain.. (usual stuff, it bit me and wouldn't let go, only reason I'm here is because I was soaking wet with rain and there was less resistance on the outside of me than thru me.. I eventually forced my knee to buckle and finally fell out of it's grasp..) longest two minutes in my life! Yeah, I should have tested it before grabbing the wire cutters.. But I myself had pulled the breaker earlier, I needed to get it out of the way to deal with another pressing issue and well you now know the rest..
Most electricians can relate similar tales and those that can't or don't either haven't been doing it long enough or are way too anal for me.. Luckily most people are afraid of electricity and give it proper respect. As for the fools and idiots, well the world is full of them..
frenchy, I have been re-remodeling my bathroom, I have posted some questions about it here! I say re-remodeling because, the kindly, white-haired, old, carpenter (referral) we hired, turned out to be a handyman! I, in my ignorance of just about everything, did not discover what a hack this guy was until he was gone.
I was working out of state and he would work four days a week. I would come home on Friday and my wife would go over what this guy had done I would look at the stuff, shrug my shoulders and flop in my chair What did I care He was hired to re-do the living room and some deck work and naturally he got more and more things to do . The bathroom was one of these things.....I had to rip out everything around the tub, because this handyman had put new GB in THEN slid the tub into the nice new niche and caulked around the lip of the tub. When he was asked about that..... umm method, his reply was that whatever we chose to put on the walls would simply slide over the now exposed, but caulked lip. Well LA DE FRICKIN DA,
he was full of ####
I have since redone ALL of the stuff in that bathroom myself,
walls, ceilings, building up the studs around the tub, Hardibacker around the tub( because of replies to my questions here) plumbing, new sink , new toilet ...yes the one I have referred to earlier, cabinets ... and now ceramic tile ...,It has been, to say the least, NOT enjoyable Electrical? piece of cake Maybe I should have been anything but an electrician, that way I could just go buy a book on how to wire my house, and not have wasted the past 35 years dickin' around with "one wire ! " I suck at carpentry or framing or whatever the hell those folks do! my Plumbing? ........sucks my Drywall...............it sucks my Taping.............guess what, it sucks toothe paint job on top of the sucky drywall and tape job? yep it really sucks !! Why? is it because I am an Electrician and nothing else? opps almost forgot, I have to put a floor down in there too! But the electrical in there...... looks great, all 7 switches (four dimmers) and three GFI's of it and it is complete Now, do I have a different approach? I hope to shout I am a DIYer too, you see, and after this bathroom I will be done with that BS, I could throw up when my wife turns on one of those programs, because of this bathroom , it has all been too much at the same time. maddog
Edited 6/18/2005 10:58 am ET by maddog
The answer to your question is "Yes". There is a difference between pros and "others" as far as how they do/approach projects. The question is almost rhetorical. So...now that we established this, where do we go from here?
Where do go with it - that's IS the question.
In a thread about shear panels, I advocated a technique and a material to a DIYer that would have allowed for mistakes to be corrected easier, and allow for reworking areas if new requirements came up. It would have also taken more time to do.
On the other hand, the Pro's recommended a technique and a material that was quick and efficient, tried and true. It was not very forgiving of mistakes or rework. My concerns about this were replied to with basically "Well, you will have to learn to do it right then won't you?" Seems rather punitive to me for a DIYer. Would you rather learn with the Sink or Swim instructor, or the Gradual Immersion instructor?
In this case, a project could be completed two different ways - both code compliant.
Here's a bomb I'll throw out there: Is the Professionals normal way of doing a project always the right way for a DIYer? Why or why not?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Is the pro's normal way of doing things always the RIGHT way for a DIYer to attempt the same thing?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
A pro is in a totally different business than I am as a DIYer, just as I'm in a different business in my (non home-construction related) profession than my clients are- even the knowledgeable ones. People in a different business should be expected to use different methods.
A pro has direct experience doing things a certain way, often learned through apprenticeship. Hands-on direct learning is a powerful thing. Many of the techniques a pro uses, I just plain should not attempt because I do not have the skill to pull it off. There's often a slower, more labourious but more idiot-resistant method I can struggle through with, which gives me a greater chance of having an acceptable result than plunging forward with something I don't completely understand and have no practice doing.
As a DIYer, my labour is considerably lower cost to the "owner" (i.e. me) than that of a pro. I have no overhead to cover, no benefits to pay, and every cent I spend on tools or rentals, materials OR a pro's services, I need to pay with after-tax dollars earned from my "real" job. Of course that affects what methods I choose!
Of course my labour has a cost to me, but the knowledge and experience I gain in the process also has value to me in so many ways it's tough to articulate them. I like the word "avocation" that one poster used: that's exactly what this project is to me. There's something spiritual about the process of building your own house, as flaky as that sounds. I'm certainly not building my project myself merely to save money, though that's a significant side benefit.
A perfect example on my own project: if it hadn't been for ICFs, there's no way I would have done the formwork and poured my basement walls. It would be idiocy to build a set of strippable forms for one job, or to try to rent them- it wouldn't pay, even at my cheaper labour rate. I have neither the skill nor the knowledge to do the job that way and do it right the first time. But with a little direction from a pro (for which I gratefully paid), doing an ICF basement was no problem for me. Besides, the "right way" to build a basement in my neighbourhood seems to be concrete block, because that's all that most builders are willing to pay a pro to do- NOT because it's what a pro would recommend as the best method for our soil conditions, that's for sure.
As a DIYer, I'm also much more highly invested in the success of my project in an overall sense than any group of subcontractors would be, regardless how "professional" they are in their attitude toward their clients or how much loyalty they owe to the GC. I'm much more tolerant of design changes because I don't have to worry about getting paid for them properly. I'm much less dependent on plans than a pro would be, because it's MY house and I drew up the plans. I'm very respectful of the needs of the other trades as I go along, because I AM the other trades (guess I share that with renovators, many of whom do many trades' work).
I am grateful and thankful to the pros here for their advice, which is gold to me as a DIYer, and I do my level best to contribute in the areas where I am professionally knowledgeable. But I don't confuse myself with them- they're in the business and I'm not.
This board is what it is.
Pros helping pros, pros helping others.
I am a rocker who came here looking for answers when framing my house,and got them.
Then got atatched just reading lots of interesting posts.
I throw in a little advise about drywall sometimes.
There are lots of boards for diy's- oldhouseweb, betterhomesandgarden ect.
Just enjoy this one for what it is. Don't try to push your agenda.
Plenty of room for witty threads in the woodshed.
Some call this board a "University". I think that it's a university in the old sense, a marketplace of ideas.As for me, I am a pro in one small area, and I have paid the dues and have the trade experience. In other areas I am a DIY, but I feel my experience as a pro in the one small area affects how I approach the DIY stuff. I try to emulate the pros and strive to do it their way, even when I am out of my field.OTOH, I know a guy who I affectionately call "the Harvard Plumber." I call him that because one day, when looking at some beautiful, first-rate DIY plumbing he'd done I commmented that he was good enough to turn pro. "Yeah," he snorted ironically, "A plumber with a Harvard degree in physics."Well, in fact, looking at it carefully, everything DIY that he does reflects that gilt-edged Harvard physics degree. Everything is well-planned, well-engineered, meticulously executed and done with the best and most advanced materials. And there is always something a little off about it as craft per se, something not quite craftsmanlike. Maybe it's a kind of overkill that reflects something not quite in balance in his thinking. Something a little cockamamie.I think that cockamamie effect has its roots in his approach to a DIY problem, which is scientific. He figures it the problem out intellectually, and the DIY work is like the proof of a theorem. Only problem is, sometimes there are some basic errors in the theory. That's the problem with book larnin'.A craftsman (or "pro" if you prefer) knows the problem and the answer well enough that little intellectual effort is required. It's almost as though the solution were intuitive. He can eyeball the solution.It used to be that pros got their craft beaten into their bones. Still true in some places. Once I was working on a job alongside a Russian cabinetmaker out in Brooklyn. He was hanging a custom kitchen, very nicely done, together with the 13 year old son. The son would make some minor mistake and the stern father would actually slap the kid on the head and curse at him in Russian. At first glance you'd think he was just plain abusing his son. But you could also say that he was instilling in him old-fashioned craftsman values the Old World way.This is an extreme example, but it highlights for me how it is that the craftsmanly values and approach are acquired. It does not come from books or intellect, it comes from blood, sweat and tears out in the field, and it comes from hazing by fellow craftsmen. Knowhow is easy to acquire, you can google it up, but the values and approach can only be acquired by paying dues.Now, if you have a degree from Harvard, chances are you never got head slapped. Dues paying is a foreign concept. You don't eyeball your solution, you research the problem and study it and try to figure out an efficient, rational way to do solve it.
I've always found your posts informative and intriguing. ( Are you still in Nippon? BTW) I know plumbers who can barely read but who are geniuses in terms of the physics and flow dynamics involved in practical heating supply arrangements for residences.The "beaten" path to a masters in craftsmanship is familiar to me too. Somewtimes it produces high quality craftsmen. Other times it produces computer geeks who never want to see a saw or handle a hammer.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
BTW, I'm the one who coined the "University model for breaktime, because of the way it attracts the best minds from a nunber of professional and other fields of endeavour. It reminds me of the original ( or what I have read of it) University of Paris, where inquiring minds met in the streets to discourse and debate!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
You nailed it for me. I am much less interested in looking at differences between Pro & DYI than focusing on getting better. There is a rare breed here, people like yourself who do take the time to keep learning and apply that knowledge where appropriate - and then generously share that with everyone else here.
As I interviewed GC's for our current remodel I was surprised by how few (quailty builders) invested much in learning new approaches. I'm not opposed to proven methods; at the same time there are good reasons why new technologies are developed and I guess I'm one of those people who is interested in at least looking at them when they seem appropriate. For example, I asked about Azek for some exposed areas (riser on step to deck) but got real push back ("that's vinyl - it's not going to last"). And I was amazed at how little people understand about air infiltration, including the loss of efficiency of fiberglass bats due to less-than-ideal fit. Of course, we are in a mild climate, but still - the cost of utilities is unreal.
Anyway, thanks for letting us freshmen hang out and listen to the grad students debate the issues of the day!
Wayne
What , a "pro" should offer advice that makes you feel good? if you can afford the mistakes.. keep making 'em and don't bother folks who do it for a living I asked some plumber on the job about sweating copper, the SOB had some smartasz reply
....... well golly, I had to straighten him right out, and inform him of his bad manners. and then a monkey flew outta my buttHe yelled at me and made me feel shame " can't we pretend to get along?" maddog
Here's a bomb I'll throw out there: Is the Professionals normal way of doing a project always the right way for a DIYer? Why or why not?
I'd say, "Not always." A pro usually has more and/or better tools and equipment than a DIYer, so a pro may come in with a tile saw for instance and set the tile and be in and out, while the homeowner may rent a tile cutter (though, HO could rent a saw too, but maybe just feels more comfortable with a tile cutter) and make special cuts with a hand saw and it may take a little longer. HO may not use a nailgun, may not own a compressor, big ladders, powder actuated nailer, torch for soldering, sliding compound miter saw for crown molding, etc.
Some tools the typical DIYer perhaps should not try to use because they take a certain amount of skill or training or experience. Not everyone can just pick up a nailgun and use it properly and safely the first time. Some people who aren't physically fit (and most carpenters/tradesmen I've seen are) shouldn't even try to use some tools--like a nailgun, circular saw--or do some work like roofing.
I see the point you are making, but I think it is flawed. When I DIY something, I do my best to emulate the methods, etc used by a person who is a pro at that particular item, the idea being to yield professional results and be efficient in my usage of time. Sure I can throw in a few curved balls to make it "better", but a pro will know these items aren't necessary. And yes, I agree I may need to do things a bit different to make up for my lack of skill in a particular area. Still, my best efforts will probably only yield a job that is 95% as good as someone who is a pro at that trade. Really the result isn't even that good since it will take me 2x as long. I think you are only thinking of things in terms of end results - ie: the ends justify the means - regardless of the cost (time included), which is ludicrous since as far as I know, 80% of the reasons that people DIY is to save money. I think many DIYers fall into the trap of thinking their time is "free". Granted that I doubt that anyone here has the needed finances available to hire everything out - so we all have to wash our own dishes...
You said (paraphrasing) that a DIY searches to find the best materials and techniques for the project. Let me be blunt: Reading between the lines a bit - you think your DIY projects come out better than professionally done ones.
Here is the bottom line - whatever your job is - if I could do it at all - I wouldn't be as good at it as you are, and I'm sure the reverse is true. You just can't beat people at their own game. Even a guy who cuts grass for a living is gonna be better at it than you or I; he can handle that weedwacker to cut perfect edges - but we cant.
Maybe you would feel more comfortable on a forum that is strictly for DIYers?
If that's what you read into my post, let me clarify:
Since a DIYer is starting out with little to no experience, they see a problem and start looking for a solution. If the problem is with an exiting piece of work, it may seem logical that one would search for a better solution that what was implemented - and broke - in the first place. And in the case of new construction, the DIYer has no sense of the historical record of a method so they may try to find multiple methods to rationally compare on merit. Everything else in the world gets better using new thinking, shouldn't it follow that construction does too?
As for your actual interpretation - BAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA! My work is better than YOURS - HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Please, if you really think that I've opened a thread in the Tavern. Lambaste me there for being the inconsiderate jerk you think I am. Otherwise, please know (as I well do) that my craftmanship is horrid and slowly getting better. I'm confronted by it every day, so every bump and bubble in the drywall for instance MOCKS ME! GAAA - there's that dang spot in the ceiling that I didn't reprime after that patch and now it's a different finish that the rest. Ohh - nice door, your sick grandma hang that for you? That's what I get greeted with every morning I wake up! But every day I'm trying to get better, slowly but surely.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
ok. we've covered your thot's on home remodeling.
any charts on other lines of work?
doctor ... lawyer ... dentist ...
how about DIY vs architect?
closer to your tag line ... diy vs mechanic.
how about appliance repairman.
financial planner ....
phelobotomist?
your chart shows how very limited your experiences in this "line of work" are.
One project doesn't make for an "expert DIY'er" ...
loved the "no change orders" bit ...
maybe comedy writer is your secret diy skill?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just starting the conversation going. Of course they are broad generalizations, and not always acurate. My point is not to define the differences, but to find the differences and compare where we are coming from. Piffen did a great job in showing how his actual experineces were different from what I had suggested. He has alot of great ideas, and puts together compelling arguments. You're doing a great job right now with that post of... well lets see, what did you just add to the conversation?
Jeff, I started a post in the Tavern for just this purpose. You want to be the morose drunk at the end of the bar breaking into the conversation with a bit of rudeness, lets go play there. Let's not drag down the level of the conversation here. Do you have something to add to Piffens post? If so, I'd like to hear it in a manner that adds to what we are talking about.
As I see it SCHELLINGM, DIRISHINME, csnow, maddog, Hammerlaw, moltenmetal, frenchy, Bill Hartmann, NannyGee, Talking Dog, piffin, DanT, Jason Pharez, and wrudiger all had something worthwhile to say. They added something to the conversation here. What did you just add?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
"What did you just add?"
a touch of reality.
a bit of truth.
wisdom of the hills ... that sorta thing.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
you may not be so good aat reading Jeff as some of us are. He actually added a very good comment - that the single experinces of a DIY do not in any way compare accurately to the life experiences of a pro with the right attitude towards professional quality work.Let me elaborate -You have some cockamnay ideas, but present them with background, intelligence, inquisitivemess, and a measure of willingness to learn, along with some self-deprcatiiong humour that makes it all tolerable at least.
in contrast...
There is another DIY on this forum who comes on with an attitude that he already knows better than the pros and that most pros are only out to screw their customers. He will never learn with that attitude and does nothing but evoke argument and disdainYour threads are evocative and beneficial for discussion, your ideas worthy of debate, if not acceptance, as long as you do not get an exagerated idea of the importance or strength of your proposals. I think that is the point of what Jeff had to say. But he uses fewer keystrokes.
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xxPaulCPxx
You make an interesting point.. I think the critical factor is the degree of knowledge and experiance a DIY has compared to other DIY's
Many of the pros here lump all DIY's in one catagory.. Many DIY's buy cheap tools and fail to understand how to use them beforew starting on a project... Asan old dog with over 14 years of experiance in the constructtion industry I've been privey to techniques and equipment selection many DIY's never have..
Unfortunetly, That is also the case with Pros.. some pros have poor tools and techniques. The result is poor workmanship and questionable practices..
You certainly can't use price as any sort of guild line.. I got only three bids for the excavation of the front of my house.. One was well over three times as much as the other and he was the person who's work always caused the most questions from me..
Yet he did everything proper, typewritten quote, quick estimate, arrived on time for the estimate, and very complete survey of the worksite.. The gentleman I wound up using gave me an off the cuff number and remembered the site from 4 years earlier.. I also know his number will be what he told me and his work will be superb.
I feel your pain.
It doesn't matter how many times you say "I'm not saying one way is better than another" people will take it that way and tell you to go to another board and just be grateful that pros ever lower themselves to answer your idiot DIY questions. I've been there.
I think your initial post presented an interesting question, although its nuance will confuse and frustrate some. I'm not sure I would have used exacly the same words in your comparisons, but I think I know what you meant.
No, DIYers shouldn't necessarily approach a project the same way a pro does. The main motivation for difference, IMO is time. Bottom line for a DIYer is that you have to have sufficient time to "dabble" at your project and still have a life. A pro can't treat time in a cavalier fasion. This makes all the difference.
The other big factor is the psychological effect of being able to tolerate a certain level of imperfection. When you are paying for someone else to do the work you naturally expect the results to be close to perfect. When you DIY you can be more forgiving of details you don't really care about and/or even more perfectionistic about things especially important to you. This also alludes to your point about having to "live" with each project.
As an aside; As an avid DIYer, the thing I admire most about folks who make their living in the trades is their ability to dedicate themselves to doing quality work on a project they will not live with and more likely than not never see again. To dedicate not only your time, but also your concern, your artisanship, and leave the work site each day with aches and pains and not have the emotional payback of being able to have your own life improved by your work (other than the recipt of a paycheck) astonishes me. On the few occasions when I have done a project for someone else, I have not enjoyed it much. Money was never an issue. The problem was that I wasn't doing the work for myself and I just didn't feel motivated.
Thanks for posing the question.
I hope you get some insightful responses.
"On the few occasions when I have done a project for someone else, I have not enjoyed it much."
My attitude is exactly the opposite. There is something very rewarding to me about helping to bring about somebody's dream. The work is pretty much the same no matter what, pretty repetitive after all these years. What makes it still interesting is making a customer smile and your fellow workers laugh.
I often hear people say that it must be rewarding to see that you have accomplished something tangible at the end of the day. This is the DIY speaking. For the pro, it is simply another job and what is important to him is what is important in any profession, integrity, a mountain of hard earned experience, and the self respect gained from a job done to the best of one's abilities.
I understand. And that's why I said I admired the fact that pros do it every day. I like to help people too and I'll be among the first to do someone a favor. But a construction "job" feels different since every day spent on someone else's house is a day not spent on mine (plus a day for my body to recover :-)
I have been both the DIY and now the PRO. The difference in my mind is practice, responsibility and pressure.
Pressure: to live up to someone elses expectation in terms of quality, durability, time and price. You can forgive anyone of those at home but a customer may not feel the same.
Practice: When you do things over and over again you develope preferences in what you do and do them often the same. And each day doesn't bring that "new adventure in learning" feeling.
Responsibility: You are responsible for the product quality, appearance, durability and have no second chance to alter it later if it doesn't work out. So you usually as a PRO choose the tried and true method.
Not many homeowners who paid for a job are interested in being experimented on in terms of material or methods. Nor are they forgiving if in two weeks you are back rebuilding something that didn't work exactly right. So in order to maintain good customer approval you as a PRO go with the tried and true methods. I personally experiment on my own house or my brothers. But it isn't as fun or adventuresome to work on your own house when you do it all day but it is much more efficient and you get done a lot quicker. DanT
Paul, this has been a good thread, and the topic has been on my mind also, as I perform volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity 3-4 times a year; I have worked with hundreds of volunteers. The biggest difference I see between DIYs and pros (other than what has already been mentioned) is that DIYs, because of their lack of experience, tend to spend way too much time on the little things because they have no idea what really counts and what isn't very important. For example, even the most experienced volunteers for HFH spend many hours cutting deadwood (drywall backer) to the exact length when it doesn't have to be and won't change any structural value.
The biggest problem I have with DIYs is that they attempt to do things they are unqualified to do, namely electrical work, and even relatively simple things like decks. They see it done on TV in 30 minutes and assume there's nothing to it. Some attempt to pass off their "handiwork" as up to professional standards--9 times out of 10, I laugh!
Having said all of that, I can also say that when properly researched, planned, and executed, DIY projects can be safe, attractive, and rewarding. I learned many things I now do for profit by trying them on my own house. I also personally applaud you for learning everything you can and testing different materials and methods before deciding what's best for you. My only advice to you is don't be so quick to berate us contractors for strongly suggesting the "tried and true".Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Yeah, yer off base pretty much with that chart of assumptions there.
for example the contractor that rarely gets changes or additions to the scope of work. I can picture the number of contractors that are laughing their silly butts off at that one. The most common piece of paper a contractor uses is called a change order.
Then when it come to your assumption that only the DIY does research to find the materials best suited instead of tried and true....it is true that we are conservative enough to want to trust our reputations to known qualities, buit we spend a great deal of time researching new answers to both new and opld challenges. Continuing eduication is part of the job. Ever hear of trade shows? Trade journals? Forums like this? Networking? I just had a phone call during dinner tonight from another contractor who I have never heard of asking for advice on using Azek because he had heard that I use it. I get in some sort of educational seminar about a week every year, plus all the reading.
When I was looking for a way of doing quality railings that would not rot, I spent a month of spare time research, then made a trip to the factory in anopther state to check it out before putting my name alongside Fypon Railings.
Uses know vs experimental techniques?
I had an idea back in the late seventies for some premade concrete products and spent several months and a couple thousand dollars with experimenting on something I neve brought to market, but the concrete accessory market is a big and growing one now. The reason we stick mostly with tested methods is that we have to consider the fact that someone's life might depend on what level of performance we do, not because we are afraid to experiment. It's called integrity!
rarely gets to see his handiwork again?
Not so.
A good craftsman will drive by jusat to see how "his house" or "his roof" or "his fence" is doing. He also gets referals and calls back to do the next job. I have very few customers from the past fifteen years who do not regularly call me back to the same house to do more work. I get to see how my craftsmanship has aged. And to learn from my own mistakes. Usually it is not a confrontational situation to see my own work.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with most of what you said except on the chart where you said pro "rarely gets major project additions or changes". We get lots of changes in scope of work and additional work. Sometimes the homeowner, after seeing the new cabinets in place, for example, decides they'd look much better with a new floor, or new paint, or since we did that so well, why don't we build the deck they've been thinking about. That I don't mind as much as things like "You know, seeing the toilet over there, well, it just doesn't look right; can you move it to the other side of the room?" (Actually, that hasn't happened (yet), but similar things have.)
The point you and others make about change orders does come as a surprise to me. I thought that change requests would be so cost prohibitive as to make them rare, or at least very very well thought out before being submitted. I stand corrected! While working on my projects, I often find myself wondering constantly what I should do next, and what I should do BEFORE I do something else. I see so many interdependancies - just in the garage mind you - that have a real bearing on what will happen later on in the rest of the house. It seems like I am constantly developing "Well, since I'm here I oughta...". These also tend to stop the original project I was working on until I finish this new aspect that has to be done now, I didn't realize the Pro's also regularly have to completely halt a project to take care of a new dependancy.
Good point about the tools! I'll give you an example I have, Circular Saws! After my second skil type sawbroke down, I decided it was time to move up to a heavy duty pro class saw. After reading the reviews and forum posts, I settled on the Ridgid worm drive. I could not believe the difference! While the saw was much heavier than the cheaper ones I'd used before, I found that the added heft and the axis of the whole design allowed me to cut much straighter than I ever had before. This was something no one had mentioned before, it wasn't just a more powerful longer lasting tool - it made you qualitively better at the task when you used it.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Maybe if the guy i worked for charged more for change orders, customers would be less likely to make changes--I'm not even sure if he charges them at all! (We're a two-man outfit with very low overhead--if we were more like a big time group and charged more, maybe things would be different.)
We have to stop things occassionally to take care of interdependencies (good term for them!)--like recently when we took out old cabinets and found the flooring went up to and not under the base cabinets, so we had to rip out and replace the underlayment which wasn't in our original plan of action. Or the time we went to take out old cabinets and ended up replacing a wall from the mud sill to the roof shingles and most everything in between including ends of floor joists, plywood subfloor, rafter tails, and moving a vent stack (everything was wet and rotten)!
After research and reading posts you bought a Ridgid worm drive!? Wow! I agree that there is a huge difference in good and cheap tools and it is amazing what you can get done and the ease with good tools. Hope you get some. DanT
Have you look at what some of the pro framers that post her have to say about the Ridgid worm drive?
HA ha! Very cute.
Here is one of the posts about the Ridgid saw:
From:
TIMUHLER <!---->
Feb-24 8:57 am
To:
moondance <!---->
(14 of 35)
54337.14 in reply to 54337.12
JLC has a review coming out next week.
Basically, I like everything about the Ridgid. It has more power, blade spins faster, rafter hook, rubber grip, bevels to 51.5°, lighter, guard doesn't snag, levers are over sized and easy to use, 12' cord w/lighted end, aluminum base.
It has more power than any of the saws we tested. The first day we got it, I used it to cut LVL valleys and it just ate right through them.
It was priced right, and had great features. If only it had a laser ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Regarding changes along the way in a project:I'm not surprised to hear that there are so many change orders for the pros to deal with. The "since you're here..." phenomenon is pretty strong. I'll bet that if they priced those changes accordingly, a slick pro could make more on the change orders than the regular work (kind of like buying a $50 printer for your computer only to discover the ink cartidges cost $40!). But I also suspect that the severity of the "problem", if you want to call it that, is made to seem worse for the pro simply because it can be so annoying for them.As a DIY'er, changes along the way are usually part of the fun for me. Basically, before a major project begins, I try to solve all the most obvious problems in my head first, but purposely leave many of the details undecided until some inspiration hits mid-project. Once in a while that involves backtracking a little, but usually it's just a small delay or change in sequence. One of my favorite examples; whenever I drywall a room, I look around for a good spot for a little built in neich (sp?) between the studs and stop what I'm doing for an hour or so to put one in. I've never regretted putting one of those 3 1/2" deep areas in a wall, but it costs me some time, and I don't want to bother with thinking about a detail like that ahead of time. That's a DIY thing that would drive a pro nuts.Regarding tools:I only do the occasional roofing job, so when I do I hand nail it with this small, light, wooden handled hammer that I got from my grandfather many years ago. It's about the only time I use it and it's a pleasant reminder of the past for me. Working alone, it would make no sense for me to invest $1000 in a coil nailer, compressor and the extra cost of nails when no one else is up there to position the shingles for me. I know my way takes longer but I don't care. that's another DIY thing that would drive a pro nuts.
The "since you're here..." phenomenon is pretty strong.
We were just leaving a job one afternoon and a neighbor where Marc had worked before walked up and said, "I have a plumbing leak, and since you did some other plumbing for me a couple months ago, I was wondering if you could just look at it and tell me what's wrong?" Marc did--probably stayed and fixed it too, knowing him. And we were done for the day, so it would have just been extra money, but I thought it was funny.
The one I have trouble with is when I'm going over what I propose to do for someone, in this case paint living room and dining room and the lady says, as we walk through the kitchen, "I have to get this painted some day too." Then when I finish painting the living room and dining room and think I'm done and start packing up she says, "Oh, remember you're going to paint the kitchen too!" Not a real problem because she pays more, but it can throw my schedule off (though usually I need the work.)
Curious; did you have the scope of the paint project in writing first? I can't imagine how a person could operate a business without getting things in writing first, even on a simpler project. Too much potential for "miscommunication". Like you said, a person has to keep a schedule.
No, didn't have it in writing. I do a lot of work for people I know and so far everything has worked out without contracts. They know I will do whatever it takes to make sure the job is to their satisfaction. So far I have not been bitten. (This has been with people from the church I used to go to and I really did trust them (though one did screw the guy I work with on occassion and some of these people messed me over pretty good when I worked as secretary of the church office (that's why I'm no longer church secretary and not on Board of Trustees any more), but I guess I'm too trusting).)
In nearly the last staff meeting before I left, the woman who said we needed a professional secretary instead of me was puzzled that I wasn't worried about my future and I told her that it probably sounded corny, but I trusted in God. (I thought though of an old Western on TV I saw where a nun was going to escort an accused killer through a lynch mob and she said, "Don't worry, God is with you" and he replied, "No offence, ma'am, but I'd just as soon have someone with a gun."
I stand corrected. I still wouldn't have bought it but didn't realize it's popularity. DanT
I disagree with your contention that Pros use known and trusted materials and techniques while DIYers use best materials and techniques.
The best Pros use the best materials and techniques possible (within the constraints of project budget). DIYers are often unable to recognize the best materials and techniques even if they do their homework. Most simply lack the experience and training to determine what is best (I should add that BT threads and good DIY books do go a long way towards closing this gap).
I will grant you this, many Pros have worn a groove for themselves. They found some things that work well and stopped learning and innovating decades ago ("old dog syndrome"--I know an old tile guy who mixes his own portland and sand mortar and still thicksets over wire lath). However, most Pros and DIYers on this forum are looking for the "new best" materials & techniques.
Sometimes innovative Pros are held back by conservative customers, codes and inspectors. I just used the Footing Tubes featured in a recent FHB issue and the inspectors had never seen them before, we had to take the extra time to go through load calculations and assure them that the "footing footprint" & rebar use, etc. was appropriate for the addition (not that these calculations shouldn't always be done and double checked--but with traditional foundations the BI doesn't bat an eye). I had to explain that these forms are designed to stay on the concrete (unlike Sonatubes which should be stripped off or wrapped in plastic to resist frost heaving).
Your characterization generalizes that contractors are conservative and DIYer's are progressive. The opposite can be true. I might add, that you notice the opposing camp. Innovative contractors notice the stuck in the past HO's, BI's, DIY's and Pro's. Innovative DIYer's notice entrenched Pro's etc.
Edited 6/19/2005 9:48 am ET by basswood
I would hasten to point ou that the reason those footings bigfoot piers were mentioned in FHB was because of innovative contractors on the leading edge.. I believe I have seen them recommeneded here in this foprum at least five times to DIYs, underlining your point that members of this forums, boith pro and DIY tend to be amoung the innovators and advance gaurd.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
our knowledge in the craftsmanship of living spaces... ..
I asked the wife if SHE liked it.. If SHE did I did it right!