has anyone ever used software to help track a project? what kind, how much, what’s good about it? i am splitting a home into two suites, including a basement excavation, and given the sheer number of tasks, i’d like to try some project management software to help with timelines and sub-trade co-ordination… i’m open to suggestions
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Replies
For years I've been using Apple MacProject II which was last upgraded in 1989! just becuase it was a real genuine hardcore Critical Path Management (CPM) program not just a souped up Gannt chart application like MSProject or AEC's Fastrack. However I may be getting softer in my hardline attitude. I've been looking real hard at AECSofts Fasttrack (Mac, Windows & Palm) and I think I'm going to make the jump to that. They have a good full featured demo to check out and be sure to read the Evaluation Guide - "A detailed, illustrated look into FastTrack Schedule's unique features and capabilities" that goes with it.
I think Fasttrack can be both as basic and as simple as a user may want it while still having enough headroom at the top for more advanced users.
I haven't looked at MSProject in at least two years so I'll it for others to comment on that application.
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IMHO if you can afford Microsoft Project it will do very well for your needs. TurboProject by IMSI is a clone that cost hundreds less, and to get the cost down they left out a lot of good features, and added several layers of frustration. That said, TurboProject does work and could be an acceptable learning program.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Several years ago IMSI offered a free download of TurboProjectLT. It supposedly would do all that the full version would do except you could only have one project (file) open at a time. I still have the file and will e-mail it to you or figure out some way to post it so you can download it if you'd like to try it. Hope you have broadband, though - it's about 6.1 meg. Let me know if you're interested.
Allaround, one of the problems with CPM technique that I complain about is that it doesn't advocate or have arrangements for resource management or leveling between multiple projects which can cause really huge problems. Ya ever have to be in two or more places at once? That's the short simple explanation of the problem that gets created without resource management and leveling.
In Critical Chain Project Management "the Critical Chain (CC) is defined as the set of tasks which determines the overall duration of a project , after taking resource capacity into account..." That taking into consideration resource capacity is one of the key reasons it's an improvement over pure Critical Path.
When you say TurboProjectLT. "supposedly would do all that the full version would do except you could only have one project (file) open at a time" I think that flirting with disaster. It's hard enough performing resource leveling across two open projects that aren't dynamically linked as it is. So being able to only have one project open at a time only makes it even more difficult. That's a real severe handicap in my estimation.
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Edited 8/7/2003 12:55:11 AM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Grusz -
There are four types of task relationships: Finish to start; start to start; start to finish; and finish to finish. That is, ways in which any one task can be associated with another or others.
Any task management software worth using (in my opinion) needs to address at least - Finish to start (one task or task does not start until its predecessor or predecessors finish), Start to start (one or more tasks do not start until its predecessor(s) start and, Start to finish (task(s) cannot start until predecessor(s) start.
In addition, the software needs to allow lead/lag times. A finish to start relationship can be assigned lead/lag times between the finish of the predecessor(s) and the start of the associated task(s).
This kind of software isn't inexpensive. MS Project, at least the last version I used over five years ago, provided the kind of flexibility described above. It also provided for assigning tasks to groups that could be treated as a single activity.
Another product that used to be offered by PrimaVera was called SureTrak Project Scheduler. It was, at that time, close to $800.00 and offered a lot of professional options and flexibilities.
There are probably several others available that will do most of what I've described but these are two with which I'm familiar. They may be overkill in your case, though.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis, you confoosed me with your descriptions of f-s, s-s, s-f and f-f relationships. I have used MS Project so some of what you said made sense, but not all. Please try again.
On the lag time issue, they can be useful for start-start relationships also. For example, you could give the insulation crew a 2 day head start before the sheetrockres started.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Elcid ...
Understand, it's been close to eight years since I did any CPM scheduling work for the commercial GC I worked for at that time. So ....
Finish to start:
The simplest relationship between two tasks. The first task (predecessor) must finish before the following (successor) task can start. Or conversely, the successor cannot start until the predecessor finishes.
Start to start:
Two tasks start at the same time. The predecessor is the controlling task. It probably has some other constraints associated with it that control its start time. These tasks can be performed simultaneously.
Finish to finish:
A successor task cannot finish until its predecessor finishes.
Start to finish:
This relationship is not usually defined in the software I used at that time. It would, I believe, relate that predecessor to the successor in such a way that the predecessor could not start until the successor finished. I guess.
Coupled with lead/lag associations, it can get pretty complex. Plus in lots of cases a lot of redundancy gets embeded in the schedule when too many tasks are linked together without proper logical relationships.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Elcid, F-S, S-S, S-F and F-F are task relationships from Critical Chain Project Management theory as you might know . I don't recall anything in MSProject specifically emphasizing the use of those relationships and I know that Fasttrack doesn't really emphasize them either but both applications do allow you to schedule using those relationships. Neither MSProject or fasttrack are real CPM programs although they both use elements of CPM in them. In reality lead and lag are something else altogether but lag is often confused with or used synonymously with F-S. Where F-S S-S etc. describe the "relationship", where lag is the "value assigned" ( hours, days, weeks). That value can be negative or positive. When its negative that's what I think Dennis is referring to as "lead". It took me fifteen plus years before I found out that's an incorrect use of the term lead in CPM management! Lead apparently and specifically means "the total time a customer must wait to receive a product after placing an order" but I think that's being just a little too serious and stiff so I'll still continue to use it incorrectly.
If your interested in learning more about them may I suggest a Project Scheduling and Management for Construction by David R. Pierce. Chapter 4 has some good explanations of FinishTo... and StartTo... relationship use. Also the text book I started with years ago (of course revised ) is good too CPM In Construction Management by James J. O'Brien
Having a project management program like MSProject or AECSofts Fasttrack is just like having any tool. For instance if you had a table saw everyone knows you can use it to rip and cross cut but not everyone knows or thinks that you can use it to make cove molding or even cope a joint. Those are more advanced techniques that aren't so obvious on first glance. The same thing hold true for MSProject or AECSofts Fasttrack. If you know CPM or even CCPM you can use them a lot better and take better advantage of those computer programs.
Elcid while I did recommend Project Scheduling and Management for Construction if you want to understand those particular relationships in a construction context I think there is an even better recommendation for learning project management. Forget about CPM and take the time to learn Critical Chain Project Management Technique (CCPM). CPM at times can really be daunting especially when you get into those Complex Relationships and it only get tougher from there. I took it as a grad level course 20 something years ago or so and have been using it for a long time so I'm accustomed to it.
However in all that experience I discovered a lot of workarounds to deal with some of the glitches and problems inherent with CPM (aka PERT). in the last seven years I discovered that there is a better way and it deals with many of the problems that pure CPM practice creates. Read Critical Chain by Eliyahu M. Goldratt and if your really ambitious and want the whole ball of wax read Critical Chain Project Management by Lawrence P. Leach. A lot of CCPM methodology makes a lot of the tougher CPM stuff a moot point.
Goldratt's Critical Chain is the book that introduces the whole theory because it was Goldratt who originally codified the thinking and techniques. Like Goldratt's earlier book The Goal (also highly recommended) it's written in the form of a novel. There is a crisis to overcome and the books hero learns about Critical Chain and applies it to the problems he and his students face so it reads a little bit like an adventure rather than a boring text. I often quote several other contractors I know who say Critical Chain is the very best book out there on Project Management. And I agree although..
Leach's Critical Chain Project Management is the nut and bolts. It's a text book. But it's certainly not boring, at least to me. It's kinda like my bible now. It's also very expensive at $69.00 and I have never seen it on sale but if you see CCPM as the Holy Grail of project management as I do you don't mind the price.
If you're interested there are a couple of us that have formed sort of a reading group to discuss the topics and techniques in those books. Things have died down a little this summer as we've all gotten busy but if you (or anyone else reading this for that matter) would like to join in feel free: http://www.paradigm-360.com/ProjectManagementForum.
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Edited 8/7/2003 12:53:36 AM ET by Jerrald Hayes
ELCID do you know? How does MSProject handle leveling resources across different or multiple projects? Also aren't there a few companies that provide MSProject templates for constuction projects?
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I don't know...never tried it. I used MS Project to define individual jobs, so the customer would have an idea of what to expect. Helps when you show the graph with 8 week lead time for the windows, and the decision is due today as to the color...
Do it right, or do it twice.
Dennis if the last time you used MS Project was "over five years ago" what are you using now?
While I really like the PrimaVera suite of project management products I not sure I would recommend them to anyone in these forums. They are all serious heavy weight PM tools and would choke most of the people here. Even SureTrak Project Manager which I might marginally recommend. They're all good but I think they are all overkill and especially for someone just starting to get into this like Grusz.
In fact just last week I was talking to a friend of mine who's primarily a commercial contractor (35million per year I think) and when I asked him, he said he doesn't use PrimaVera because you need to hire someone full time just to run PrimaVera ( which I interpreted to mean someone who knows both CPM and PrimaVera to run PrimaVera).
While I haven't used MSProject in about two years I'll ask you a MSProject question anyway in the hope you might recall. I don't recall there being any dynamic resource management and leveling between multiple projects? I definitely recall each project is a separate file but like I said I don't recall any resource management and leveling between multiple projects. Is there any? I figured since it is a Microsoft product and it seems to me you can link all sorts of MS documents to each other Word to Excel and Excel to Excel etc. I figured there must be at least something?
One of the good things about MSProject is that even if there is no dynamic resource management between projects there is a set of Critical Chain add on software made by ProChain that would do that and is supposed to give MSProject full CCPM capability. The bad news is it wont work for me since were a Mac shop.
However I do know you can practice resource management and leveling in Fasttrack keeping all your projects in one file. It doesn't perform CCPM functions but if you know CCPM techniques you can cobble together a methodology and practice them in Fastrack. I've being cobbling together methods to practice CCPM in MacProject Pro for a few years now (adding Buffers as dummy tasks in the appropriate places) but the only way I could manage and level resources between projects was to do it manually which lead to mistakes. That's why I getting set to switch to Fastrack (probably next week).
You'll recall I said "I think Fasttrack can be both as basic and as simple as a user may want it while still having enough headroom at the top for more advanced users." I think it (or MSproject) will work best for Grusz being easy enough for entry level use while still having the capabilities to grow into. As for TurboProject and TurboProject LT I don't know anything about them but as I just said above if TurboProject LT allows only one open project at a time I would forget about it since it will quickly outgrow it's usefulness.
Dennis since you very obviously know your way around CPM do you happen know anything about CCPM? Feel free to put your two cents in with us too over in http://www.paradigm-360.com/ProjectManagementForum.
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I have used Primavera, also Sure Track by Primavera which is a smaller program . Meridian Prolog was similar , but more fuss than value IMO; but MS Project was the quickest to learn and have up and useful for most of my projects ( primarily building healthcare in on-going hospitals). Have been told Timberline has another.
I think the MICROSOFT PROJECT was the best as being easy to use and certainly quicker to set up for small projects.
Post it Notes can serve when spread out on a large table to get the events created and to estimate durations. For some projects this can be easier for someone just getting into CPM scheduling, and always a good place to start before you start any of the computer prograqms as it gives you a wide view of complexities and items to be included.
Warren like you I think that same set of programs while powerful and good are more trouble than benefit to the typical Breaktime contractor. In talking with that GC friend I mentioned above he said he heard Timberline was partnering with PrimaVera? I gotta ask Bob Kovacs about this again since I know he's a Timberline user.
When you mention post-it notes I can recall while I was still in and just out of college I was tacking 3x5 cards (the tasks) on sheets of homosote and connecting them with string (the dependencies) to manage the theatrical scenery production I was involved with. You absolutely had to learn to project manage and schedule in theatre because the show opens on a certain date whether your ready and finished or not!
I had a guy who worked for HRH, a company that built skyscapers in NYC, and a few other people see what I was doing and tell me what I was doing was CPM. I didn't know what they were talking about but soon after that I did learn what it was and went back to school to take a class and learn what I could. However after learning more about it I stuck with the 3x5 cards and string for maybe ten more years until I finally discovered computers MacProject Pro in 1987. I've even seen the 3x5 cards and string method in books on project management where it refered to as COTW (cards on the wall).
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Did I hear my name used in vain? lol
Timberline and Primavera aren't really "partnered up" or anything, but there is some interfacing between their products. For most (and by most I mean 99.94%) residential contractors, both of those programs are far more than you'll ever need (or want to spend the $$$ on).
I still use MS project for all my scheduling, and still don't even begin to scratch the surface of it's capabilities. I've run $10 million projects using it without even utilizing the resource allocation functions, though they could have been useful if I had the time to use them.
More than anything else, I want to stress that using "something" is far better than what most contractors are using, which is "nothing"- yellow pads, sticky notes, their failing memories....lol. But don't jump in head first and start spending thousands on scheduling and PM software thinking it'll solve all your problems- if you're having problems with keeping your jobs on track and coordinated, better to focus on PM fundementals than expect some magical program to save the day.
Bob Kovacs
Use your name in vain? Nah never, not by me at least.
"I've run $10 million projects using it without even utilizing the resource allocation functions, though they could have been useful if I had the time to use them. " I didn't learn it from any text book, or class I ever took but I think resource allocation functions are perhaps the most important and valuable feature in a scheduling application.
I think any schedule without any resource management or leveling applied to it is like a set of blueprints without any details or dimensions telling you how to build the project. A schedule without resource leveling it is at best then just a hypothetical best case scenario guess. However most schools of thought regarding scheduling always tell you to produce a "diagram [the schedule] of what is logically possible, then deal with resource limitations". Without dealing with the resource limitations it's just a first draft. In fact I just quoted that from on of my favorite books on project management from a chapter entitled "Scheduling Project Work" and it's followed by a chapter entitled "Producing A Workable Schedule".
"More than anything else, I want to stress that using "something" is far better than what most contractors are using, which is "nothing"" Agreed,... absolutely! Most contractors ignore scheduling thinking "well it (the project) will just get done whenever we get done with it." That thinking may be okay in some regions where things are laid back and easy going but I think as you get closer and closer to the major metropolitan centers clients are ever less likely to accept that as the status quo. Increasingly they really want to know just when will it be done and on the next level they'll start asking for it to be done faster.
Aside from giving customers what they want (faster projects) there are other advantages to scheduling from a contractors point of view. Lets hypothetical but typical small contractor does 12 projects a year at an average cost of $35,000 per project for a yearly volume of $420,000 on a given overhead. If that contractor can keep their overhead the same but get the waste and delays out of their production process by better scheduling and get themselves up to 15 projects per year (a 25% increase) you're now doing $525,000. If you operate with a 10% net profit you net profit just went from $42,000 to $52,500. That $10,500 more in that small business owners pocket. I think that's well worth the investment in learning better scheduling and project management skills.
So how does MSProject handle leveling resources across different or multiple projects? Can you tell me? I gotta believe it does have something.
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