A customer wants me to build a room full of cherry bookcases for his collection of 4000 books(Sweet!)
Have built a few bookcases but usually pretty small so shelf deflection not really a problem.
I’m trying to figure out the spacing of the units and how they will fit in the room. Walls being covered are 8-12′ long so they will broken into a few units per wall connected to each other. Is there a good method for proportioning something like this so it looks decent. Ceiling height is 8′. Design is pretty simplistic no frills, wide moldings, etc.
What’s the ideal average width a bookshelf should be, made out of 3/4″ cherry plywood that is 12″ deep with perhaps a 1″ – 1 1/4″ rail attached to the front and probably fastened through the plywood on the back of the bookcase somehow.
Books are average size and the shelves will be pretty full, not much display space.
Let me know if more information would be helpful in making a reccomendation.
Replies
not adjustable shelves? - - average sized books? - - hmmm - - gotta think there are books of varying size represented - I doubt I could rustle up 4K here at home, but I do sit on the library board with a larger collection, and we moved them all in the last year -
is his collection fluid? (coming and going?) -
I guess I'm suggesting a need for versatility - and I'd measure the books to get a handle on how many are how tall/deep - -
~36" is a good length to shoot for - if I was looking at 12' of wall, I'd mock up both 4 and 5 racks of shelves and let the owner have some imput - 4 equal racks or 5 racks with a wider one in the center? (more pleasing to the eye) - depends on the room and the corners - if you're turning the corners with shelves (effectively making the room narrower), then probably 4 racks
3/4" plywood is not very stiff and even at that dimension needs attached to the back in the middle - if the shelves are fixed with a rail in the front, I'd put a rail on the back too, and a screw or three into the the carcase -
shelves on all 4 walls, working around openings? scratch out a diagram of the room and we can get down to the nitty-gritty -
can you make the bottom 2-3 shelves deeper/taller and maybe put doors in front of one bank?
later...
suggest you put the rail on the bottom and fasten thriu the rail into the ply...
with 4k books the depth will vary widely nd the rail gets in the way... make some shelves adjustable.. hieghts vary from 4 or 5 inches to 16...
you need to take a look at his colection if ya can......
I just finished a set that I designed and I would , if they aren't adjustable, set the shelves about 10" apart with one or two on the bottom at 12". I would also make them no wider than 3' for an unsupported run.
I would try to stay 38'' or less for a fixed bookshelf that will be fully loaded all the time. Someone else said 36''. I know laying out a room might require variances for aesthetic reasons. I did an adjustable shelf last year on 21 feet of wall and let the ends go to 41'' I think. I knew this was pushing it. Used stiffeners front and back. Client said shelf would not be loaded with books but nick knacks, but I'll bet sometime on their life hey'll be loaded with books. I think they;ll be Alright. A mouldings called longwood panel mould can make an attractive front edge stiffener, recessed about an inch in from he edge.
I have a simialr situation, but the client says adjustable shelves is not necessary, make them all fixed. So someone here mentioned 10 inch spacing ... is that clear space or centers?
Also, is it better to rout a 1/4" dado in the cabinet sides for the shelves, or use applied moulding? Quicksilver ... can you describe the longwood moulding you are referring to? And you said to set it back an inch. If I applied a moulding to the face of the shelf, that would hide the plies at the same time.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Since the client wants the shelfs fixed I would ask him to see the books so that you could design a custum unit. As far as dado or applied moulding I think that has more to do with aesthetics. Cove glued and nailed probably wouldn't be as strong as a rabbeted shelf set in a dado, rabbeted side up, but in my opinion it is strong enough. I saw another poster suggested between 30 and 36 inches - Good advice if it aesthetically works, but we all know sagging shelfs definately have no aesthetic appeal so if these are going to be really loaded you might want to heed his advice. As far as the longwood. I looked on line and couldn't find any profile to steer you towards. I had to come home for an emergency, My palm pilot somehow stayed on and the battery was ready to go. If it goes I lose a lot. Being the low tech, high tech guy that I am I haven't been backing info up. Today that bit of laziness bit me right on the rump. Any way I made a free hand drawing of the longwood panel mould from memory in Appleworks 6. I hope you can recieve it. Sorry I see the attachment didn't go through if you need It I'll try after work. Gootta go!!
Edited 6/30/2005 8:46 am ET by quicksilver
Ed, After work now and more relaxed. I have a Virutex hand held edge bander. The only time is really comes into play is with built ins. It allows me to design my work for sheet goods only. I use only a small amount of actual hard wood when I can't get an aesthetic fit in a eight foot or smaller increment.
The longwood might be called sm-64 where you live, at least that's the number for it around here, DC. It will require either showing part of the shoulder 3/8'', or a rabbet that is pretty hefty 3/8'' by 3/4. and as another poster pointed out you have quite a bit of shelving. It's a pretty hefty piece though and provides some good strength with a strong aesthetic appeal. Another piece called sm-30, I've used for the same application. It's less beefy but requires a lot less labor to install. And its looks great too, especially in hardwood. Someone mentioned 1.618 to 1 ratio. I try to use that wherever it'll let me. As far as a big project like this the edge bander would be my strongest suggestion. That thing will help keep costs down. And you be amazed at simple design tricks you can use to keep the lengths down. Let a style run through a rail, and a keystone are some that I have used.
Hey I'm an artist!
Edited 6/30/2005 5:55 pm ET by quicksilver
I appreciate the reply, but could you run that attachment through Irfan?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Sorry not sure what you mean by Irfan.
There is a wonderful program called Irfan or irfanview. It's a free download. Somewhere here is a big discussion about it, if you can get the search function to work.
It does two things well: converts files from one type to another, and shrinks the size of the files, specifically pictures. That file you uploaded was like 1 meg ... Irfan will instantly get it down to 10-15% of that size. Not only do you get faster uploads on your end, those of us with dialup connections can easily see the pics. And the resolution is more than enough for emailing, although it is reduced.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Ed, razzman and Bill, Thanks for the advice and certainly will follow through on it, although I'm kind of beat right now. It's been really hot. Really I just wanted to say you didn't miss much, and have a good 4th, and don't drink and drive, I told all my guys that repeatedly at the end of the day. We'll see.
Edited 7/1/2005 4:38 pm ET by quicksilver
Greetings quicksilver,
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=24441.1
is an old thread here on Breaktime that includes a lot of data on posting pics and the Irfanview download.
Dialup patrons of the forum cannot download real large files or will take excessive time.
Two things are necessary to assist the dialups with your photos. Making sure that the set file association is set to jpgs if you are using the Irfanview system.
The other is to keep the KG picture size to preferably 50 to 75 KGs.
Cheers
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
The other problem was the file type.Best that I could find out that it was either a Gerber ploter file or a Claris works file.What you need is JPG or GIF for viewing.It you can get there with a SAVE AS (and then look under the types for saving as) or have a converter then view it and do a Screen Capture.
here's a long discussion/ pics on bookcases...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=54450.1
only the bottom shelf is fixed.. all the others are adjustable... the shelves are reinforced with the front edge molding.. even so.... i try to keep them in the 30 - 36" range
This might help you with the sag calc.
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm
A Sag Calculator.
I am amazed.
Thanks
In terms of the overall width of each section of the shelves, have you considered the Golden Ratio? 1:1.618. Since the beginning of mathematics, the Golden Ratio has been found to be the most perfect and appealing ratio when used to proportion anything designed, room shapes, furniture sizes. I believe it was Da Vinci who did extensive study of the proportion and its relation to nature. Use this proportion in everythig you do. Rectangle sizes, when varying drawer sizes in a dresser, room sizes. The ratio can be applied to all of these in design. It takes a lot of the guesswork out of it. There was an article in Fine Woodworking a short while ago which outlined this theory. I highly suggest it. read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio#Aesthetic_uses
Good Luck
Books are average size and the shelves will be pretty full, not much display space.
Now, my experience with books is that 12" plus the front rail height will work, but it can be tight with taller books. You probably need one or two shelves with a 16" O.C. spacing, just as an experienced guess. Often, customers with "folio" sized volumes want them visible, too, meaning they "want" to be the second or third shelf "up," too.
For widths, I'd tell you to look for a module size around 30 to 34" inches that makes a nice unit size for all walls cased up. A 30" wide stack of encyclopedias is not light at all, and more than 36" wide wants special support (I've discovered the hard way a time or two).
Finding a common size helps you build the units, too, as you can set up a bit of a production environment. This is particularly needful in building the dozens of shelves you'll need. (Hmm, 8x12x8, 96*2 + 144*2 - 36 door & 60 windows is 384; is 12 @ 32, with 6 shelves each is six doxen shelves.)
I always use a 32" shelf as the maximum because you can get 3 of them out of single 12" rip of 3/4 ply. 1 1/2 ' nosing rabetted, glued, clamped , and nailed[18 ga. pins].Nosing should not be dadoed, as it would leave a shoulder above the shelf surface.
Include adjustability. The customer figure out you were right, in the end, and be grateful.
Museum-quality antique books are very small. Modern Art / photography books are very large format. Cookbooks cover a considerable range in the middle. Antique and other small books also are best displayed on shelves that are shallower front to back, and the very most exquisite volumes would benefit from being behind glass to keep dust and insects away from the linen, leather, wax and glues. Mixing this up can make for great visual appeal. Consider two fixed shelves per case at standard heights around the whole room and which create 'ideally' proportioned rectangles with the uprights. The remaining shelves then are free to vary height and depth.
I've tended to commission bookcases that CAN accommodate the max: art books or binders, but now welcome having a higher proportion of the space scaled for smaller books. Meanwhile, I curse the (prev owner) designer of kitchen because I can't create JUST ONE shelf tall enough for the 2% of cookbooks that are monsters in height.
The last remodel we did had a bunch of built in book shelves. I bought the Festool hole jig to drill the holes. That's 250$ just for the kit excluding router and rail. The designer came in and decided the adjustable shelves were not true to period and had us fill them all, and install a cove for a shelf ledger. I was a little miffed but in the end they actually looked better I think. Not the first time I was initially irritated with a designer only to find out they actually had a good idea. Point is some people just don't want to see the holes no matter how perfect they are. And most bookcases once the shelves are set and books shelved, at least in my experience, don't ever get adjusted again. So I think with careful planning the fixed shelf can be pulled off in this case. Not trying to be contrary just pointing out that the advice you gave about book sizes can be applied to fixed shelves too.
BTW, there are method for making adjustable shelfs that are "period".Make 4 standards out of 1 by that have on edge sawtooth or cut with 1/2 circles.Then you have inserts that match the saw tooth or 1/2 circle that you put between two side standards and that supports the shelf.Aslo, depedning on the type of books he has he might like a some mid level shelves that are angled and have a lip on them. Can be used for a dictionary or some art books. Laid out so that you can use them in place.
Bill I like the idea about the angle shelf so the book can be viewed, but I didn't follow the suggestion about the period shelf. Would you elaborate? I'm interested.
Here's a shelf support I used in some shaker/colonial style bookshelves. There is a piece of 3/4" x 1" +/- stock in each corner, with triangles cut out at regular intervals. Then there is a piece of 3/4" x 1-1/2" stock with matching pointed ends that fits neatly into the gap, along the side of the case. The shelf sits on top of that bar. Some people use a half-round notch rather than the triangle notch.
View Image
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Edited 7/1/2005 11:26 pm ET by Ed Hilton
Seems like it would work better if the cross-piece was long enough to reach between the notches. ;)
Ed thanks, I put that right in the bag. It think that with angle or half round has great potential in the right application. I went to the irfan site last night and found it was for pc only and now and in search of some similar program for my mac. Thanks for the heads up. Nice drawing. What program is that?
I did that with Autosketch, a baby brother of AutoCad. 2D only, but a pretty neat program for $125.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
It what Ed shows below.
and install a cove for a shelf ledger.
So did you glue & nail a cove piece alonmg the back and both sides? Like about 1/2" size?I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Yes. Stopped and returned about an inch short of the shelf edge. We routed and ripped it. It was about 5/8 by 3/4 if I remember right. The designer didn't specify the cove, just no shelf pin holes.
Edited 7/1/2005 11:03 pm ET by quicksilver
60008.21 in reply to 60008.20
You make very good points:...some people just don't want to see the holes ....shelves, don't ever get adjusted again ....careful planning the fixed shelf can be pulled off I just wish the previous 'designer' here had read this thread. I've got some built-ins with adjustment holes in a pattern of a mere three holes each 8 1/2 inches. You're guaranteed to see the holes in all those spaces which fit nothing you already own. LOL. I hate designers.
Visit a library or bookstore and observe the shelf widths. Generally they'll be a little narrower than the best for "eye appeal", to deal with deflection and make arranging easier, but still you'll get a general feel for things.
Note that deflection depends enormously on the material used for the shelving, and how the shelves are supported. If the shelves are fixed (fastened from behind) and faced with something like a piece of solid wood 1x2 (wide face out) then they can be quite stiff and sag-resistant. Ultra-wide shelves can be managed if you add some sort of support bracket or vertical spacer at intervals.
Just don't overreach on the shelf width, since sagging over time is the thing to worry about, not immediate sagging (which shouldn't happen no how, no way).
What's the ideal average width a bookshelf should be..
I'd divide up the with of the space ya have for them and divide by the amount of cases ya want to build!
EDIT::
AND find out the max and min height of the books by author so you get the right shelf spacing....
EDIZZT:: Sorry I JUST HAD TO! .... Good luck!
Edited 7/1/2005 7:27 pm ET by Will George
Edited 7/1/2005 7:28 pm ET by Will George
Hardcover books (I'm basing this on a quick check of what's around the house) are an average of 9 3/8 inches high.
Paperbacks are 7.0 inches.
"Coffee table" books seem to be all over the board.
Last set of shelves I built (free standing, based on Shaker style) I used red oak, made them ten inches deep, 36 inches wide (outside measure) with 3/4 thick stock (solid wood, not plywood).
If your client is willing to sort by sizes, you can get a bit more per unit, I made mine with the top two shelves sized for paperback, next two for hardcover, bottom spaced at 14 inches for large stuff. Being free standing, I left about six inches of space between the bottom of the shelf and the floor, as my vacuum cleaner is five inches tall.
Mine are dadoed into the uprights with a 3/8" dado, back is open.
The next set is going to be made of solid wood uprights with 3/4 inch plywood shelves with a solid wood nosing, as it will be much less expensive.
Except for not having to hassel with covering the exposed-ply edges, I don't see any advantage to using solid lumber to build shelve units. I just bought some 3/4" 7-ply birch AC ply for $37 a sheet from my lumber yard, and I know it isn't twisted or warped which will make constgruction easier.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
These are free-standing, not built-ins, the feet (an inverted U shape) would be problematic in plywood.The set I'm designing for our back bedroom (which will be done RSN) will be done in plywood with a facing of some sort, probably whatever's least expensive, or easiest to do, and then painted to match or to SWMBO's tastes at the time.Leon Jester
i prefer to work with 5/4 wood for shelving. a nice structurally supportive joinery technique can be to have dadoed supports on the horizontal plane for shelf supports, and dadoes on the vertical plane(in top pc. & base pc) to lock in the vertical 5/4 sides & center pc(s).
I built a shelf for No. 1 Daughter using 5/4 uprights and 3/4 shelves, red oak. Five feet tall, six feet wide, center support so shelves themselves were a little under three feet wide. Ten inches deep. All the shelves were dadoed into the uprights, 1/4 inch oak veneer plywood rabbeted into the back and screwed down. Weighs a tonne. I have no idea how she'll move it, but I suspect it will involve several husky male types and dinner.Leon Jester
hehehe just roll it on a couple of dowel rods - if ya ever have2 move it.
It's the getting it on a truck and then into some godforsaken third story apartment (#1 Daughter has kind of a martyr/cheapskate complex) that will be interesting. I've offered to take photos and provide a case of good bheer. I'm frankly curious as to how many of them it will take out ... I mean require to move it.She's the one that (despite Daddy's comments that it would weigh a tonne) wrote the design specs.Leon Jester
you've probably taught her well. happy independence day!
Apologies for the tardy response.Thanks for the good wishes. No. 1 Daughter is one of those people that have a good eye and fairly good taste. I wish I could claim more credit for it, but there it is.Leon Jester
You have one of those daughters too? Mine has this thing for upstairs apartments and if the stairs are narrow, that's considered a plus. She also gives extra credit if there is at least one landing with a 180* change in direction. In an earlier apartment, I had to take the handrail off to get a couch up the stairs - and it was still a tight fit.
When she moved into her present place, I told her that I would help her with one more "down" move but if there was any "up" she should call a moving company - lol
My son was living in an apartment with stairs like that and no handrails.Not surprisingly, he had to move out when the place was condemned. (You shoulda seen the electrical.)
You just had to mention the electrical, didn't you?? My daughter wanted to replace the kitchen ceiling light fixture with a ceiling fan. The light fixture was one of those round glass deals with two bulbs and was clearly marked to say that they shouldn't be over 60w.
Naturally, the previous tenants had used 100w bulbs (or higher) for years. When I took the old fixture down, the insulation crumbled to dust and I just barely managed to get the fan installed. When I had finished, I told her that the fan would be staying when she moved - and I really hoped that she would move fairly soon. Luckily, she moved after a year. - lol
Heck, that problem is "normal" in any house built prior to about 1960.
I think I would design around shelves between 30" and 36" wide. I find that that width can be filled with books without having the shelves sag.
I built this bookcase a couple of years ago and it's almost filled with books now - with no shelf sag.
If you want really wide shelves without sag, consider concealing a piece of angle iron between the front of the ply and the moulding. Sort of a "Flitch moulding". I haven't done this on nice looking bookshelves, but the bare angle iron has worked well on shop shelves.
-- J.S.
i love the slanted shelf idea, for reference books!
When she asked me if I could do that, I said "Of course"..............then had to scramble around trying to figure out how to actually do it - lol
I have a drawing somewhere and I'll post it when/if I find it.
36-38 inches seems a bit wide to me...I suppose it depends on the thickness of the shelves. I usually do mine in 3/4" hardwood faced-plywood with a solid edge, and I don't go more than 32" if I can help it.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
If you post your question on Knots, you'll get the fine woodworkers' ideas on bookshelves, for what it's worth.
If you made the shelves "torsion boxes" you could have them quite wide. (But they would also be quite thick.) Torsion boxes are basically two plywood skins with a wooden grid (or cardboard--like in interior doors, or even foam) between. They are amazingly strong for their weight.
I don't have any answers to your techincal questions, but I know this much - when the shelves are done and the client's check clears the bank...
Party at your place!!!