Is there any secret to having decent pumpjack poles that I missed? NOT the $$$$$aluminum ones. I mean the homemade ones..Qual-craft says to use “straight grain knotfree doug fir” RIGGHT…not gonna happen for me.
Every set I have made, go like this..14′ 2×4 ‘s butted end to end, 14′ scab centered , 7′ top and bottom 2×4..all whacked together with 10D galv. set em up, pump up and TRY to get down at a REASONABLE speed. Either I get stuck or I free fall about 6’ feet.I have driven in roofin nails to get some bite when the pencil sharpener thing whittles out a divot, I have beat the crap out of the lock up bar..what gives?
someone said use 4 layers of 1×4..? ever do that?..ANY advice is welcome, being as these may be up awhile (my house, probly the next decade before I get done<G>) I want a friendly relationship from the git go.
Thanx. and no I can’t afford scaffold. Duane
Replies
When the pump jack sticks going down, tap down lightly on the square bar. You will go down a couple of inches. Try to go down evenly if possible on all the jacks. When 2x4's get slippery reverse them.When practical I place a ladder against 2x4's and under a few feet, then pull square bar with claw of hammer while cranking down.This will lower pump jacks quickly. I can lower four jacks from sixteen feet to waist level in 10 or 15 minutes this way.
mike
Sphere,
We always use #2 Spruce 2x4's. Nailed them together just like you said. Only we made them as long as 40'. The spruce is soft enough the jacks always got a good bite. Never had any problem with slipping.
You should have seen us hauling a load of 40' poles with the 8' pickup. Let's see. . . that's 32' sticking straight out of the back of the truck. Yep, it can be done.
Dawg
"It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."
I am sure ya did not need the red flag on the poles! I have used PT and spruce, Spruce is a lot lighter to standup, and move around. Mostly I get stuck when the jack hits the joint in the pole, or the 2x is not dry enough or wet enough.
Worst scare I ever had on a pump jack . . . We were using 2' x 4' pieces of plywood with a hole cut in to tie the top of the pole to the roof. Had scaffolding setup over a weekend. Monday morning - crawled out a 2nd story window onto the walkboard, walked down the scaffold toward the nearest pole. Pole was sitting on backfilled, uncompacted dirt. It had rained several inches over the weekend. With my weight right over the jack the pole promptly sank about 2' straight down in the soft dirt. Unfortunately, there was less than 2' of pole sticking thru the top of the plywood brace. Suddenly that pole was swinging free!! Since I was between the pole & the house the pole just fell against the house and I was able to carefully get down. I think my heart rate went from 70 to 170 in .5 seconds.
Dawg
"It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."
Edited 12/28/2003 8:26:40 PM ET by Dawg
Reminds me of a BAD day..we were sheathing up a gable end (not a truss job, they get done on the ground<G> now), and had a couple a 2x4's nailed into window jackstuds and a little kicker going up to the header inside,,out side we had 2 x12's overlapped in the middle and tacked. That was supported by two 16' 2x4s nailed together with about 4 ' overlap and they were on the edge of the still open basement/footer gap. On those planks we were on stepladders to reach the rake soffit almost to the ridge..sheathing was osb. Well everytime we moved around the planks would bounce up and down and that center post 2x4 would inch closr to the footer trench..the guy up with me says "I'll fix it.".goes over and takes his 28 Estwing to the top of the 2x4 post to try to move the bottom by hitting the top the other way (did I mention this was when I was REAL new,? and we were REAL dumb?)..before I could scream NO>>!!!!! I saw the house going up in front of me..realizing I was going down, I just caught the window sill..thumped into the wall hangin by my finger tips..looked down and saw all the staging and ladders in the trench..no sign of "Nando" the jerk..he was hangin off the other windo sill..we both started laughing uncontrollably ( I dont know why)..and hollared for a ladder ASAP.
Pumpjacks are piece o cake now..as far as fear factor.
sphere... we were 2x4 pumps for about 20 years.... but in the mid t0 late '80's OSHA started cruising the residential sites and issuing fines.
basically.. it's pretty hard to conform to OSHA requirements with wooden poles and safety rails..
anyways... i bought two 24' aluma-poles and a 24' x 14" aluma-pole pick....
our increased productivity more than paid for them and we got rid of all our wooden poles...... and we stopped using our wall brackets too..
every once in a while we add to the alum-a-pole set up...
here's what you want to think about... how much longer are you going to stay in business ? 10 years ? 20 years ?... then you really ought to think about increasing your productivity... i can't think of one thing that will do that as much as BETTER staging...
alum-a-pole will change your life....or... your competition will change it for you...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yeah Mike, but the deal is I am not doing this for a living, I am semi-retired and do mostly Architectural Woodworking/ Custom woodworking/ Furniture/ Guitars.
Usually if I have "highstuff" to install the GC has everything in place scaffold wise...This is for my house. I agree it is wise to have the best and I may have to buy then sell the good poles ( I have a LOT to do on the place, realistically, might take a year to finish the outside stuff..ha ha times 2) because by the time I get halfway done I will need to replace the poles anyway.
Even when I am done with the house and I may do some remodelling work for others..I think I'll sub that stuff out.!!!! Duane
I gotta go with you on this one Mike. so much more productive on scaffolding than pump jacks.. I wound up getting a set of scaffolding from a guy who was fed up with the business and just wanted to get out, here take it..
I bought the needed braces and stuff missing and have it ever since..
Once in a blue moon there is a spot where pump jacks work and scaffolding doesn't then it's worth it to me to buy new 2x4's since it's my butt on the line. I hate pump jacks. I won't go on any I haven't set myself..
I'll go further and suggest that there are times when a manlift is really the answer. they make light tow behind ones now that are affordable and really speed up your production.. The way you pay for those is to quote the price you'd do the job with setting up pump jacks and then go find a rental store that will do a rent to own..
In the Twin cities area all of the equipment dealers do it..
On a typical tow behind you could pay for the months rental in a couple of quick jobs.. once you find out how slick they are and you decide that you can't live without it then you convert it to a lease..
That's how you get Uncle Sugar to pay for it for you..
Hint, section 179 of the new tax code..
Hey Mike,
"alum-a-pole will change your life....or... your competition will change it for you..."
Did you get a new gig and not tell us about it? Writing promotional literature for the Alum-A-Pole corporation...
Jon Blakemore
pretty competitive market we have jon....
every tom , dick & harry has alum-a-pole now.. except some of the olde fahts like blodgett..
2 poles & a 24' pic... what's not to like ? as to lulls.. nah... if i were a framer... i'd THINK about it..
but i just don't see what a lull can do for me with a 40' cornice to redo
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"every tom , dick & harry has alum-a-pole now.. except some of the olde fahts like blodgett.."
Wood pump jack poles and Chrysler products...
I definitely see a pattern...
Jon Blakemore
Mike,
If you were framing, definitely think about a forklift. We just bought the forklift in the pictures. It's a 1998 Ingersol Rand VR90B. We had a forklift that was a 1976 Badger Dynamics. We paid $7500 for it, put a $1000 into it, and we are selling it to our excavator for $7500. We made money off that think.
We recently framed a house for the second time (about 200 spft increase). We framed it last year (with 3 experienced guys) and then framed it this year with some roof changes (we stick frame. It had 4 pitches, 3 of which came into some vaulted valleys). We had 3 guys again, but now one of them was brand new.
We saved over $2000 on this one. It is actually higher, but all the numbers haven't come in yet. A lot of that was the forklift.
Now, that you are going to get into framing and buy a forklift, I'll buy some alumipoles from you :-)
Thanks for the subject. I love talking about forklifts.. (since I sell them for a living I'm pretty well up on them)
In the 12 years that I've sold them every single person who bought one always said to me, "why didn't I do this sooner." They do pay for themselves especially if you do just framing but they still can pay for themselves even if you buil the whole house yourself..
In general for framers they pay for themselves by helping you to build about 20% faster and reducing the crew you need by at least one grunt.. For whole house builders it's more like a break even when you figure that much of the time they will be sitting idiol while you work inside.
You'll use them to frame, roof, install windows, siding and trim.. . You'll still get by with one less grunt and you'll still gain the benefits during framing but it's not as dramatic as if you just frame all day..
My framers tell me that after a learning curve they gain enough speed that they can do one extra house a month with one less grunt.. The payment to frame a house is always less than the payment on a forklift..
Let's talk money for a bit..
The most common size is a 6000 pound forklift with 42 feet of lift.. New they start around $70,000 and the way most are equiped sell for about $75 ,000 to $77,000. (I'm talking net prices here.. list is 40% higher) The brand really doesn't make any differance I've sold Lull, Cat, Gehl, and Ingersol Rands. I've got the dealer cost on any brand made and by the time you get thru the normal discounts and special discounts etc. there isn't 2 cents differnace.. (competitive game, selling equipment!)
used are just now starting to become available at reasonable prices.. Total junk is around $20,000 for one near the very end of it's economic life.. while most start around $30,000 and go up .
Part of the reason they are holding such a steep value is the demand. When I first started selling these the whole industry sold less than 500 units.. recently the industry shipped and sold over 15,000 in a single year!. When there is that much demand for those few units, the price of used is way out of line to their real value.
In addition they don't wear out the way other equipment does. economic life of a forklift is around 20 plus years.. the first major expense of one is the engine will need an overhaul at around 10,000 hours.. (cost about $5000.00) the average framer will be very hard pressed to put over 300 hours a year on one.. a builder closer to 150 hours. that's twenty years to wear out the engine!
tires are cheap around $200 each and on occasion you might knock off a mirror or catch a hose, that's about it..
most builders buy them on a rent to own basis.. In our case we apply 100% of the rent towards the purchase. (yes we do charge interest but 1% a month) to reduce that once the builder has them long enough to have made the down payment (about 6 months on average) he'll convert it into a lease.. at that point his payments may be around $900 to $1100 a month for 60 months.. pretty hard to hire a guy to hump all that lumber for just a grand a month..
(plus it will never argue with the boss or show up drunk and try to punch the boss, and I've never heard of a forklift winning a workmans comp claim either)
Which brand is the best? It is much more important to get a good dealer than one that may have slightly better specifications.. If a minor trouble happens you need someone to come out right away and fix it.. not be put on a schedule for when the next available mechanic can get to your area..
Most have their market and specialize in that area.. Lull for example is beloved by the masons.. the sliding carriage is something that they can actually use and in certain applications it helps.
Lulls are slow and not terribly stable plus since they've changed owners so often their dealer network is really messed up..In addition Lull has a habit of having the owners sort out the development troubles in their forklifts... (the B model bent booms and had terrible frame cracking problems.) sure it may be fixed under a warrantee but who makes up for lost time?
Cat is made in England and really wasn't designed for construction it's main market is farming and Cat has a good share of the farming market in Europe.. they are imported here and other than some weakness they are OK if a bit scary when frame tilting.
gehl is terribly heavy for what it is and yet it is no more stable than most.. It like most others needs what is called a RAS system to comply with stablity rules.. That limits what you can do with the forklift..
I sell Ingersol Rands.. Like I said I've sold most brands and consistantly lost when the customer demo'd a Ingersol Rand. Here in Minnesota they have 65% of the framing market leaving the other 18 brands to fight for what's left.
I can give you a dozen reasons to buy an Ingersol Rand but I don't want this to sound like a commercial so if interested please E mail me. I'll also talk about most brands since I study every brands weakness and strength..
frenchy... you sold me.. if i were starting out.. i'd probably get an IR..
i don't see labor availabilty getting any better , so we keep trying to make it easier for us and our guys to function with small crews..
our major additions don't warrant the lifts.. the whole job is staged anyways.. but some of our roof jobs could definitely use some help
matter of fact.. i've got to put a roof on this one i built in '86.. i'll look into renting for this jobMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
this job will be strip & reroof.. access is between the two garages , which form a courtyard... 12' between the garages
what kind of platform would i be looking for ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Absolutely use a manlift in this application rather than a forklift..
the reason is that a manlift is eight foot wide and it can swivel and raise up in this kind of space where a forklift would need to come in and turn 90 degrees to work with the wide side of the platform . sure you could put the workplatform on end and do it that way but those end pockets are supossed to be for loading and unloading only, not as a way to work from ;-)
the brand of manlift doesn't matter some are slightly better than others but for your purposes any brand will do an OK job.. be sure to ask for an articulated boom or manlift or a Knuckle boom (it's the same thing, the boom has several pivot points instead of just one)
the best brands are either Grove (their new series is really great) , or JLG
you might try Cat the rental store or United for one.. either one carry both brands.. The reason I suggest them without knowing is that both Cat and United have policy that allow rental purchase.. Other rental houses either don't have that policy or charge so much interest and give such a small percentage of rental credit as to make it not really worth it..
Avoid Hertz. they rent things untill they are no longer profitable and then sell without any credit towards the rent paid.. Avoid too, smaller local rental yards they buy stuff at near retail prices and don' have nearly as good a maintinace or replacement program. There are dealers for this kind of equipment and they are your best bet.. If you want I'll network a bit Monday and get you further information..
I know that you said you'll only rent it for this one job.. That's how we sell 'em.. rent 'em and when they realise how much faster the job can be done you go and tell them that their payments will be about half of the rent..
my favorite sales pitch is, press hard the last copy is yours.. easy to do when they make more money with it than without it..
Mike,
I can't really see the grounds around the area but I suspect from what I can see you might be better off with a manlift for that, then a forklift..
The reason is that the manlift could work in a smaller area then the forklift would.. get what's called a knuckle lift in order to be able to go up and over with out having to go back a long ways.. Also be aware that the machine will be heavy.. very heavy.. a forklift weighs around 20,000 pounds and it's on four tractor type tires. if the ground is soft it will tear up the lawn.. a manlift on the other hand is as heavy (or heavier) with smaller/wider tires that aren't nearly so aggressive. It's still a very good idea to lay down plywood to avoid tearing up the grass (or go when the ground is frozen rock hard or baked bone dry..)
You might be able to do everything with a 40 footer but fifty would probably be better.. if you get a forklift you'll definatly need all of a 40 footer. get one with at least a 10 foot work platform, with a couple of guys I like to use a sixteen foot work platform since it goes so much faster you kind of need that space to keep out of each others way.. (and try to use one with end pockets..) If you get a manlift make sure that you have at the very minimum a five foot basket.
i get it tim.. and i can see where it would pay.. i don't see where it would on our additions.... most of the sites are too tight or sloping..
i've been wrong before though...
we had a local job .. big 54 unit condo... they were replacing all the trim for the 2d or 3d time since they built it in the late 80's..
they had 3 man-lifts on site for three months... definitely a big savings there.. but not on most of our jobs
do you use it on trim ?.... see we're staging for framing, sheathing, trim , roofing and painting.. so, our alum-a-poles stay in place for a long timeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you are too cheap to buy Alumapoles then at least pony up for some 24' 2x4s!
A small price to pay when your arss is the one danglin in the wind!!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I would use 24' 2x4's cept being that they would be 4' too short. Maybe LVL rips would work but they are 1 3/4..ever see a 28' 2x4?
I don't wish to entirely discourage you from using wooden pump jack poles, but 21 years ago I was on a scaffold with wood poles, and one of the poles cracked and threw me to the ground. I ended up braking my back in two places. I was fortunate enough to recover to about 90-95% of what I was before. And before anyone asks, the 2x4s were brand new. One had a hidden flaw in it which caused all the problems. SO, if you do use wood poles, inspect the lumber VERY closely.
Roger that . I think I will use LVL ...rip to 3" and they are 1 3/4 ..so screw those together, oughtta be ythe ticket..pole needs to be 3x3.5..whaddya think?
i'm wondering with all this pole talk and storys of accidents, if anyone ever read the instructions for proper setup with pump jacks?
Mike is right about longevity and production efficiency, but for anyone who uses wood poles, the book on it calls for placing the poles every seven feet apart and placing standoff brackets every seven vertical feet to anchor to the house, or alternate bracing to stabilize them.
We can ignore some of the rules some of the time, but ignoring all the rules all the time will gaurantee exciting times and passionate stories.
Excellence is its own reward!
wow.. 7' ? i made my assumptions based on 10'... we always set up with 14' between poles and used doubled side b side 16' 2x10 staging planks with 2 (20" x 20" ) 5/8 ply cleats.. theory being.. if one plank broke , you still had time to get off..
anyways... it was almost impossible to conform to those regs so we switched to alum-a-pole
sphere.. if there is one thing that holds its value.. it's alum-a-pole... i bet you can sell them when you're done for a small discount..
nothing like working on a 20" sidewalk 40' in the air.. and one guy can work a 24' section all by himself Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I can dig it . Start shoppin I guess. Dont need anything TOO soon..Icy pic could be a bitch.<g>
yeah.. they can be .. but they go down like an otis elevator.. and not much effort to get 'em back up again the next day.. so you can drop them and tip the pic on it's side so it's ready for the next day
here's a 24' setup with 24' poles... a 20" pic for standing on and a 14" pic for a work / safety railMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
its amazing how everything looks so much cleaner when you wet it down with a garden hose before you take a picture.
Yeah, seven feet!
I set mine up ten to twelve feet apart and use double planks, but the vertical brackets and standoffs go in at least every seven feet and I have never used or trusted one of those scrap plywoods with a four inch hole for exactly the reason shown in that example above.
I still like working off pumps but my subs prefer pipe staging so they bring it on site, I pay them rent in addition to the other charges, and we all use it and feel safe. I have not invested in AL poles because I want my business to more in the direction of subs doing all the work with their own equipment while i design and manage so I am avoiding big heavy tool purchases. ( next dollar item is a new PC)
I never thought about type of wood and was wondering about all these storeys of pump jacks slipping as much as six feet. I have almost never haaad one sluip and then never more than a couple of inches. Maybe it is because I use spruce. I think 36' is the highest I have worked off them..
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, use double width planks, but f'gods sake invest in some microlam scaffold planks instead of double thickness 2x10. No splitting, knots or handling double the number of planks. Once again, this is one that saves money over the long term.
In case no one has noticed yet, crappy scaffold is a pet peeve of mine. Falls from heights are the #1 cause of serious injuries in the construction industry, yet so many people - experienced ones among them - are willing to work on dodgy ladders and scaffolds. Seems no matter how far away I take them, broken ladders keep finding their way back into use. I'm the guy who takes a skilsaw to them eventually to get rid of them once and for all.
I've also been known to cut up worn out, fuzzy nylon lifting slings for the same reason. Sure pissed off the crane operator! And it really pissed off his boss who wanted me to pay for the slings and the time on site. I refused and my company stood by me, we had pointed out those slings on two previous visits.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
Smarten up and buy the Al poles. Pump jack is a good lightweight system but you are asking for trouble if you use homemade struts for a lot of use. Any method of working at heights is a potential injury situation and who can afford a lost time injury? Don't piss around, buy the proper parts - you will save money in the long run.
Scaffold cost less than 100 a month for 8 sections worth 3 walkboards and 8 adjustable posts.In comparison to pumpjacks inherit risks I can't see the price being to steep. Also my productivity would greatly increase with an elevated work area that I can run a saw and have all tools needed safely on the same elevation as my work. I currently rent the scaffolding set I listed for the last 4 months and have had no problem charging extra to cover their expense. I also invested in an extendable walkboard so that I could have a safe plank between scaffolding sets and use with my ladders this was a very worthwhile investment.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Ok all ye nay sayers, and prophets of doom and despair. I have a safe solution...REMEMBER I AM USING THIS SHORT TERM>>>I am not going up on jacks for a living..I need to chink my logs and do some trim.
I will nail 2x4's PT as CLEAR AS I CAN GET..with blocks 2' long in the middle, with a space for a 2x6 SPAR to be inserted at a RT angle, and have the spar tail protrude out the out board side where either a plank for a work table OR a removeable PIN will keep the spar in the slot. The spar will have an upward angle of a few degrees to help counter any deflection (picture the guys notching trees and putting in boards as they go up)..and that will carry the walk board (of aluminum persuasion) that I will buy cuz I can still use that with my ladder jacks too. So all I have to do is add spars going up and remove as I descend. Tied to the roof just like pumps, and re-useable as a lumber rack in my shop when they are no longer needed.
If that don't work, I am getting 2 ladder-vaters and tie the throttle cables together and beam my self up like a bundle of shingles<G>.
I've been using pump jacks on wooden poles since the early 70s and I like 'em just fine - not to say I didn't have to learn how to use them, though.
Spent more than one lunch hour changing soiled pants from that sudden drop of 6 inches, when you use a hammer to overcome a stuck jack. Took me a while to learn that when the jack sticks on the way down, pump it up a little and clean the burrs off the back of the post with a knife or chisel/screw driver. Haven't had a problem going up, or down, with wooden poles in I don't know how many years.
As for all you guys talking "increased productivity", why stop at allumipole? Why not just go buy yourself a Lull?
At about $150.00/jack (with tool rests and standoff brackets) buying a pair of pump jacks to get started, then adding through the years as need dictates, is still a great a great way for aspiring builders to go. But I agree that there can be a learning curve to safe use and some people would be better off with some other system.
Sphere, I changed from the double 2"x4" method you described to using a 2"x4" and a 1"x4" with 3/4" plywood sandwitched between, all secured with exterior glue, long gal. staples, nails and a few screws where needed. I like it a lot better. Still, you gotta be extra careful on these things; it only take a heartbeat to change a life forever. Good luck.