Punch list for inspecting addition
I’m in the final phase of having a contractor complete a 1000 sq ft, 2-story addition, with a 500 sq ft basement. To see it, check out the attached photo.
While the workmanship appeared to be fine up to the final phase, it seems to be deteriorating at the end.
Some of you already know what’s been going on with the hardwood floors (thread: Bulge in new hardwood floor), but I’ve noticed some other things that I’m considering asking the contractor to fix before calling the project complete. Prime examples:
1) A slight backward lean in a corner, which is made noticable because the corner is right in front of the vertical lines of the linen closet doorframe (LeaningCornerInFrontOfLinenClosetDoor.jpg). I checked it with a level, and it is within tolerance, but just barely, with the bubble’s edge right on a tolerance line.
2) A door that is attached to a wall that also slants, so that the door digs into the rug when opened (DoorTippingIntoRug.jpg). Again, the level says it is just barely within tolerance, with the bubble’s edge right on a tolerance line.
3) A handicapped-accessible bathroom wall that is not square along the bottom (the top IS square). Its angle is made noticable because the linoleum’s square tiling pattern acts like a ruler for measuring different lengths (BathroomWallSlantsOut.jpg).
Originally, the door wouldn’t close either because the bottom of the door stuck out about a half-inch when the top part was closed, but the contractor took care of this by adjusting the strip of wood in the doorframe that acts as a jam.
4) In the master bath, there are cracks in the grouting that run roughly parallel to the grout lines and appear to be the result of shrinkage, but might have been caused by something else (CracksInGrout.jpg). These cracks are widespread.
So the two questions I have are:
1) Which of these issues should I insist on being fixed, or be willing to accept with some deduction from the final payment, or simply consider acceptable?
2) Given the kinds of things I’ve found with my ameteur eye, what would you recommend that I put on my punch list of items to inspect before saying that this project is complete?
I found a sample punch list on the web at http://dc.road2la.org/en/family_home/home/design_construction/Getting+Started/Construction+Process/Punch+List/Punch+List.htm, but it’s pretty generic. Any thoughts on what to watch out for would be greatly appreciated!
Replies
Dave,
This is an addition, and where the new and old meet you may get some areas where the finish isn't perfect.
The door that rubs the floor should have been cut off and still can be, whoever hung it was trying to get in and get out. Actually needs to be rehung as well, if it's not perfect then it needs to be. Thats what rough openings are for. How are the reveals on the door when it's shut?
The grout if it's new, needs to be taken out and redone. The installer should do that as I am sure he has given some sort of warranty to the GC.
The tile is another issue, can you put up a bigger picture? Is this in the new or old part of the home? Is the tub level? I cut the bottom row of tile to fit the tub, looks like your guys did it at the ceiling.
Woods favorite carpenter
"This is an addition, and where the new and old meet you may get some areas where the finish isn't perfect."
-- Very true. In fact, this is what started the thread, "Bulge in new hardwood floor": trying to figure out what to accept when old and new don't match up. In this thread's issues, the contractor had complete control over the walls and tile job.
"The door that rubs the floor should have been cut off and still can be"
-- Thank you for confirming this. The door seems to stay in place when you swing it to a particular spot, so once the bottom of the door is planed, we should be OK and not have to do anything to the wall itself. It seems plumb enough.
"The grout if it's new, needs to be taken out and redone"
-- Good to know. As for the tile, it appears to be OK; it was just a bad photo due to inadequate lighting when the shot was taken.
Attached are two photos that give a better view of the grouting job. One shows cracks and a plain-old rough finish, and the other shows that the grout is actually missing in spots along the wall.
If I had done this myself, I would have taken off the wall base before putting in the tile and grout so that the tile pattern would disappear under it rather than get broken up by a bad grout line where the tile was roughly cut.
Could you confirm that you think it's reasonable for me to ask the contracter to go back and re-do the tiles along the wall that are affected this way, in addition to the grout? Thank you!
"This is an addition, and where the new and old meet you may get some areas where the finish isn't perfect."
What I meant by that was, the old walls might not be plumb, level etc...Those are existing issues that make things like hanging cabinets, doors, tile and other finished materials a little more difficult.
The wood floor is another issue, the sub completely left out the prep of the floor. Then proceded to beat the dents into it. Alot of negligence going on there.
Same with the tile and grout, it looks slapped together to me. I am only seeing small pictures of what is a big picture but from what I see the finish is not acceptable.
The trim should have been taken off in the last picture, that joint is going to crack like a SOB when it gets the urge. Wood moves at a different rate than grout and that seam is always to be ugly with the cracking it's going to do.
These are my observations, do what you want with them. I'd start with holding money until the finish is done right. Make sure they seal the tile and grout as well. Woods favorite carpenter
"These are my observations, do what you want with them."
-- I'm going to print them out and keep them in my back pocket. Thank you!
Any comments on other things I should keep an eye out for? I know it's tough without seeing the actual site, but there may be some classic screw-ups you can share with me that could trigger some ideas on what to look out for.
By the way, the electrical and plumbing work still aren't finished yet. Can't wait to see what happens there.
Have Permits even been pulled on the job?
When you bring these things to the contractors attention, be sure you make it clear its not a personal attack. You don't like a few things and would like them corrected.
People make mistakes, allow them to fix them correctly. If they are unwilling then find someone who will and pro rate the pay to the first GC. Tell them fixes like spray foam are not okay.
If they decide to pull the bad floor planks only and refinish tell them that you want the same warranty that the manufacturer offers.
The tile screw ups need to be fixed as well. These will only get worse. Maybe offer the idea of a wider trim to hide that huge seam if thats okay to you. Otherwise it will crack and getting them back after they are gone may prove troublesome.
Did they insulate the perimeter rim joist in the basement? Another biggie that gets skipped by some. Make sure thats done as well if it's in the contract.
Make sure any new doors don't rub on the floor, they can be cut down and rehung under 10 minutes a piece. They should close easily and not rub on any part of the jamb or floor. They might have set the doors before the carpet and didn't shim them up. Thats why they are rubbing now.
I hope this works out for you, be reasonable but firm. I know you are probably overwhelmed so be patient and address one issue at a time. Working backwards through a project is nobodys favorite, thats why you have to address them as you see them. Not let them build up into a big list.
Woods favorite carpenter
"Have Permits even been pulled on the job?"
-- Yes; saw the inspectors myself. Saw them give the OK.
"Did they insulate the perimeter rim joist in the basement?"
-- Not sure. Will check.
Thank you for all of the other suggestions. They're going to make it a lot easier for me to do the things I need to do this week.
Grout should not have any cracking. That indicates that the substrate is moving somehow, or that the grout was mixed too wet and shrunk, or somehow else mixed wrong. Do not let them just caulk to hide the crack.
Doors should stand open when you open them and closed when you close them and work freely without rubbing anything. A door that swings one way or anothe4r is not hung plumb.
Anything operational should operate as intended. Windows and doors all function, lights come on and go off, water runs ( only when intended) heater heats, roof sheds water ( all of it)
A lot of what I see in the limits of those pictures suggests to me that this builder has a background in framing and exterior work, but not much experience in managing good subs and doing interior trim well. A lot is done, but not done well enough to be proud of, but not necessarily bad enough for you to demand replacement other than the floor and the grout. I don't have enough to go on for the rest and this is all a matter of negotiation.
The sooner you have him in to go over a punch list, the better for both of you. He should already be bringing it up himself at this point.
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"the grout was mixed too wet and shrunk, or somehow else mixed wrong."
-- That's what I suspect.
"A lot of what I see in the limits of those pictures suggests to me that this builder has a background in framing and exterior work"
-- He has basically told me this over the course of the past few months. His weakness appears to be in the finishing work, but I think this has more to do with his employees than himself. All of the interior work he's done himself has been fine.
It's got to be frustrating. He has spent a significant amount of time correcting the errors of the employees. Then again, he hired them, and management skills make a difference. Also, he made the choice as to what to do himself and what to subcontract, and to whom.
Thank you for the suggestions. Will do.
From my POV it seems you are bound and determined to make this a confrontational relationship? You have mentioned waiting till the end to inform him of what you perceive to be problems. Now you are writing a punchlist to hit him with.What's your relationship with him now? If it's still good work as a team, not against each other. I always ask that my clients to let me know if they are unhappy with anything and not to wait till the end to spring it on me. Many times their complaints are something we are waiting to do. like adjusting cabinet doors or putting the hardware on or caulking.Sometimes they come to me with stuff that bugs them, but no one else. If I know it bugs them I try to adapt to their needs. If someone comes to be at the end of the project and says I came up with this list with the help of a bunch of goons from an internet site, I might dig my heels in. <g>What I'm trying to say is approach him now and ask when would be the best time to do a walkthrough together. Personally I hate punchlists and strive to have zero defects when it comes time to do the pre close walk through or the post job walkthru. If we have worked as a team through the duration of the job we can get pretty close to no punchlist.Communication is the key. If he's not initiating the communication, you need to if you would like to bring this job to a close with the fewest hassles possible. You are well past the point of no hassles. Again this all depends on your current relationship with him, which I haven't seen mentioned as yet? or I missed it?
Barry E-Remodeler
"You have mentioned waiting till the end to inform him of what you perceive to be problems."
-- We've been keeping things cordial during the entire 5 months since he broke ground. Definitely starting to feel the strain, though. He projected finishing in 3 months -- that is, mid-November.
My habit is to tell him immediately when we see something wrong, and I plan to continue doing this for all of the small stuff. The main thing I'm planning on waiting on, though, is replacing the hardwood floor.
The floor-gouging problem is big and obvious once you take a serious look at it, so he MUST know about it. And yet he hasn't mentioned it to me. My waiting actually gives him an opportunity to come to me, which is really what should be happening.
If he doesn't come to me, it's not a good sign. I've already had run-ins with him on three occasions where something needed to be redone:
1) Our contract specified a 40" corner shower for the master bath. He put in a 36" one. When I brought this to his attention, he said that a 40" was much more expensive, and the allowance wouldn't cover it. I told him that the allowance didn't matter; we had no problem paying the difference because we want, and specified, a 40" unit. His response was a kind of grudging compliance, which was kind of strange because he was the one who typed the contract -- he knew exactly what was in it. Moreover, if he had done his homework right, he would have put in the proper allowance for a 40" unit, not a 36" unit.
2) Our contract specified a handicapped-accessible shower stall in the first-floor bathroom, meaning that it should be lipless. The contractor knew that the bathroom was for my wife's sick frail father. And yet he put in a shower stall with a 3" high lip -- definitely NOT handicapped accessible. When I told him that we specified a handicapped accessible shower, we went through the same dance as with the corner shower.
3) And then there was the HVAC. The addition converted our house from 1 zone to 2 zones, each with its own heat pump.
However, when he set things up with his HVAC subcontractor, the agreed-upon arrangement was to just dedicate the new heat pump and its zone to the addition. This was a really bad idea because the zone would be split over two completely isolated areas on separate floors: the bedroom on the first floor for the sick old man, and the master bedroom suite.
Which leaves us with the question: where should the thermostat be? In the bedroom of the sick frail old man? or in the master bedroom suite?
Clearly not acceptable. Also, the subcontractor balked at the idea of split zoning the new 1 1/2 ton heat pump, which is what was necessary for independent temperature control.
We went back and forth on this for weeks. We were finally able to convince the contractor and the HVAC subcontractor to put the entire new zone on the second floor, which involved changing an existing bedroom on the second floor over to the new zone, and having Dad's bedroom be serviced by the old zone.
Given this history of the contractor balking at doing the right thing, I'm hoping to get the smaller fixes taken care of before getting into an issue that could be a show-stopper.
At this point, the damage to the floor has already been done. It's not like we can prevent further problems by dealing with it right away.
As for the punch list, my goal is not to play "gotcha." The goal is to avoid discovering a problem after the last payment was made, and also preventing damage from some insulation, sealing, or other issue that could have been avoided if I had checked for it.
Please let me know if you still think I'm approaching things the wrong way. This is the biggest home improvement project I've ever done, and I'm looking for wisdom. Thank you!
That certainly sheds some more light? <g>You have a better feel for the situation than those who are not there. my feeling is that he may be a little out of his depth business wise especially, he's tried to expand his business and it's blowing up.Has he made right the bath issues even if grudgingly? I'm guessing he doesn't take criticism well and has to wrestle it around awhile before taking care of it. I would still take care of talking with him sooner then later. Gives him more time to get used to it.I think the others are right in that he's probably an ok guy with some bad birthing pains.Like I said you have a better feel for the relationship than we do. Best of luck.
Barry E-Remodeler
"my feeling is that he may be a little out of his depth"
-- I think this is the case. He's been around for a long time, and is a member of the Better Business Bureau, but I'm getting the feeling that the projects he's GC'd have been smaller home improvment projects, and his involvement in big projects has been as a subcontractor.
"Has he made right the bath issues even if grudgingly?"
-- Yes, and he never got mean-spirited about it. He's just not showing a lot of empathy for the customer's needs, and seems to be trying to shave the contract.
At this point, though, he definitely is trying to wrap up this project and move on. This is part of the reason why I have a strong feeling that he will not be happy about re-doing the hardwood floor. Thank you for the good wishes!
Edited 1/13/2008 10:42 pm ET by DelawareDave61
"Like I said you have a better feel for the relationship than we do. Best of luck."
-- Thank you. Just talking about this situation with people who have seen it all before has been a big help.
I don't think you are approaching anything the wrong way, after reading about the first three problems. I'd do the same: get everything done asap, then set a schedule for the fixes. I'd keep pointing out the minor things though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"I'd do the same: get everything done asap, then set a schedule for the fixes. I'd keep pointing out the minor things though."
-- Thank you! It's a delicate dance...
My wife's getting estimates on both refinishing and replacing right now.
It is a delicate dance because the contractor has a track record that makes it that way.Others have already mentioned that you need to develop a strategy for breaking the news to the contractor at the end. I agree. If you've read the book, "how to win friends and influence people", there is a strategy in there that I'd consider: Make him a hero and then ask for help. My plea would go something like this: "Contractor, you have done a wonderful job on this overall project. We are pleased. We are especially thankful that you went beyond the call of duty and made three significant changes when some problems arose. It takes a special kind of contractor to provide excellent service like that and I'm hoping that you will be able to help me with a major problem I'm having. With everything so beautiful, I'm wondering how I will explain the floor problems? Everyone that walks through here keeps asking about that. I told my brother that you would know how to fix it."I would do that with each of the problems and let the contractor figure out the solution. By making him the hero and allowing him to solve your problem, he'll be more likely to do it in a non confrontational manner. The powerful technique is to ask for help because everyone likes to be helpful and appreciated. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"If you've read the book, "how to win friends and influence people", there is a strategy in there that I'd consider: Make him a hero and then ask for help."
-- Excellent book. Been using this approach to some degree, and assuming the project goes well, he really WILL be a hero because our entire strategy for taking care of my wife's father depends on this addition coming together.
And it really IS a matter of life and death -- after medicare coverage runs out, the cost of the Nursing home he's been going back and forth to the hospital from costs $20,000 per month (yikes!).
At home, with round-the-clock nursing care and other costs, the total cost will drop to about $10,000 per month, but its still a whole better than the nursing home, and we will no longer have to drive 25 minutes in each direction to look after him.
The only dilemma is that you can only use tactics like these a certain number of times before they start to sound like tactics. -- back to the delicate dance!
Fortunately, his family has just gone through an experience similar to what we're going through. Anyone whose been through it can empathize in ways that others cannot. So we have that link, and it helps.
"you can only use tactics like these a certain number of times before they start to sound like tactics. "or theatrics
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"or theatrics"
-- Yup. By the way, a BT'r has helped me find a real pro on floor refinishing whose located in Wilmington and plans to give an estimate on Thursday. So, thank you again, BT!
barry, you come at this from a personal point of view. if you worked new construction at all, you would realise that punch lists are common. my advise to the homeowner is to approach this as it is normal, without confrontation. as a person who was in business for years, i would rather have a punchlist than him talking to his neighbors. if he is any kind of good business person he would ask if there are any concrns before now. he should be expecting a punch list. none of these problems are major, but all should be addressed, before final payment is given.
I'm a little older than you and yes I have worked in new construction.But this isn't new construction and I don't feel there's a need for punchlists in either new or remodel. It's a list of mediocrity. IMODid I say he should be confrontational? The GC is not stepping up as far as communication, so the HO has to but they still need to work as a team
Barry E-Remodeler
It sounds like he is a decnt guy will poor management skills. Try to find away to work with him without breaking him
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"It sounds like he is a decnt guy will poor management skills. Try to find away to work with him without breaking him"
-- that's what I'm hoping for. We're all going through enough stress as it is.
That slant wall picture is a big deal. It doesn't matter if it's old to new, a decent contractor would have checked that wall knowing tile was going there and furred it accordingly. So far the pictures are that of a hack job. Please post more.
Well I would bet the workmanship was not good to begin with you just did not notice. If the framing was done right the subfloor of the addition would lineup with the old and the flooring sub (or if done by the GC) would be able to match the floor without a bump.
The reason many contractors have a problem at job closeout is poor planing and work upfront. thing is how many home owners are going to notice a wall is out of plumb before sheet rock goes up. They do not notice a rough door opening is off but they see the door is not hung right (if framing if plumb the door is easy to hang plumb if framing is off a little the door can be shimmed plumb if it is way off then sometimes reframing is needed. But again most homeowners don't notice until the finish stage. I always question when finish details are falling short just how much you don't see is not right. Like was the insulation done right. and how about all that wiring and plumbing now hidden in the wall was it all done right. Just because the inspector signed off does not mean he saw everything.
Was the foundation waterproofed or just dampproofed? In many areas dampproofing is all that is required but that does not mean it is good enough. Were all the joist hangers nailed with 12D nails and not just 2" hanger nails. Are the footing drains properly installed with enough stone and filter fabric and draining to daylight or a properly installed sump.
Although the finish details may look bad and need to be fixed these hidden details that most homeowners do not see can cause big problems.
And believe me building inspectors do not catch every thing. they see a footing drain they are not there when it goes in to see it was actually installed correctly. When they get there the stone is covering the pipe so how can they see the crushed pipe caused when the excavator drove over it. Often building inspectors are in a addition roughin inspection for a 5-10 min. they will see obvious code violations but often miss details that make the difference between a just good enough job to a well done job.
Your problems maybe just a GC in a hurry to move on to the next job and rushing at the end or it could be a sign of just how poorly he did the work you do not see that could be a problem in the future. (or in the cause of your floor is a direct result of poor planing or execution of earlier work.
Edited 1/14/2008 12:15 am ET by MFournier
"how many home owners are going to notice a wall is out of plumb before sheet rock goes up"
-- Definitely the case here. And your point about the stuff that can't be seen at this point is also true.
My background is in mechanical engineering, which means I can talk a good talk and understand the principles of what is going on, but have to come here to find out the low-down on Red Rosin paper and the like.
And that's basically why I was asking for punch list items: after seeing what I've seen, my next question is: OK, so what am I NOT seeing?
One bit of good news: I took photos of the construction, inside and out, at the end of every day work was done. Started out as fun, but I also figured it would be useful down the road if I ever wanted to drill into a wall or something. Now I can use it to look for other things.
I do know two things:
1) His construction materials have generally exceeded those of the original house, but this more a reflection of upgraded code requirements than anything else.
2) I learned from the electrician that he was instructed to do the bare minimum required by code. In this case, I was able to intervene and give the electrician my own electrical plan, and paid for the difference.
The stuff I know about, I had some control over. The other stuff...
My bet is that it is all the minimum requred by code.