New roof is imminent – roofers are finishing up neighbors house and moving on to mine next.
Based on everything I’ve read (I know – a little knowledge is a dangerous thing), it’s standard practice to install a row of “starter” shingles under the the first row of shingles on all eaves. Some even recommend on all rakes. What is the purpose? I suppose the double thickness on the eaves will make the first row “lay right” and match the other shingles. In the Taunton “Roofing with Asphalt Shingles” book the auhor also indicates that the starter strip helps with water resistance.
The reason I ask is that I looked at my neighbors house and the roofer is not using a starter strip at all. The job specs are: full tear-off re-roof; 50-yr architectural laminate shingles (Owens Corning); 72″ of Grace I&W on eaves; 15lb fiberglass reinforced felt; roof pitch 10 to 12 (differs in areas). We live in snowy, blowy Upstate NY.
Should I ask the roofer to add the starter strip? Eaves, rakes or both?
Thanks for the ongoing help.
Rob
Replies
I always see starter strip on the eaves , never on the rakes.
Rik
what does OC recomend? I've never seen shingles installed without a starter in 20 years of roofing in the SE and OK, KS and NE. Make sure there is one on the eaves, rake is optional, IMHO it looks better from the ground. Read the shingle wrapper, do no less than is recommended, they made em they know how to apply them to receive all warranty.
The starter is very necessary to keep water out.
Your shingle is only about 3' wide. When you but them together water will get into the seam. The starter shingle starts at about half way from the shingle on the first course to halfway to the next. Any water that comes through will land on the starter and flow out.
It probably wasnt speced that way because any good roofer should know that. It will not be warrantied without it.
I Put it on the both eave and rake.
You might politely mention to your neighbor that he look at the instructions printed on the wrapper of the shingles. There is no shingle system in the world that does not use some form of starter.
It is especially important with three tab shingles - they show the voids, but it is also important with the heavy archy textured shingles. At each butt there will be a small amt of water getting in over the years. I have a photo in my older archives of a house where no starter was used on the eaves. after about thirty years, the whole fascia, soffit, sheathing - everything - was rotten. It had started worst at the joints.
It is insane to skip the starter course.
It also tells me that if he is this cheap to save fifteen bucks and twenty minutes work, he is the kind of hack that is saving himself money at the customer's expense in other ways too.
In some places, some roofers use a course run up the rake for two reasons. Usually they are not using metal edge ( another no-no in my book) so they are counting on the starter to help support the overhanging shingles.
Also, that starter gives modest protection against wind blown rain penetration at the edge.
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I think starters along the rake also reduce the amount of drip off the rake and onto the siding.I some times see it on older houses in NW Ohio, nevr on new stuff
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
The roofer probably figures the I&R will suffice between the gaps.
I'm by no means a pro roofer but I cant believe some of the things i've seen.
We recently install a whole house fan for a HO. The house had no soffits and they installed a ridge vent. Guess they figured the lack of soffit vents wouldnt hurt since they didnt bother to cut the sheathing back under the ridge.
Just out of curiosity, where is this whole house fan supposed to be exhausting to? Without ridge or soffit vents, it'll just be blowing hot air back down the wall cavities, no?
We ended up installing gable vents. We also recomended some turtles but the HO never called back.
Actually, we suggested not installing the fan in this attic. The house is a bungalow and has a really small attic. Even so, they said give it a try.
We warned them, but I guess their happy.
Good suggestion, those things scare me ever since the time I saw one accidently turned on in the winter and it sucked burning embers out of a wood stove across a carpeted floor. Instant negative pressure on the whole house...
I see a lot of houses roofed out here without dripedge up the rakes. Usually when I don't see the drip edge there is a 1x2 trim board on the fascia and they say this acts as a drip edge.
I don't buy it. Your opinion?
There are several reasons for the 1x2, but replacing the metal edge is not one of them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The older style, three tab shingle has keyways cut in it, every twelve inches. That makes it necessary to lay a starter course of shingles at the eves, spaced about six inches off center, to protect the roof, when using that type. The starter course is usually laid inverted, granular side up.
A starter course is also required because there's a gap where the shingles butt together. This is true of all types of asphalt shingles.
Some roofers lay a vertical starter on the rake edges. This adds some support to the overhanging shingle end and also makes it possible to reach under the overlapping shingle and cut it off accurately, after nailing it in place. There have been times when I wished I'd had a couple extra bundles so that I could've used that method and gotten a neater looking rake edge from one of my guys.
Edited 7/2/2007 9:33 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
BTW, Don't use that roofer.
As noted, he he skipping an important visible step - lord alone what else he is screwing up/short cutting.
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
I always assumed that since the first row of shingles doesn't have any below it to divert water that seeps through the joints between the shingles, the starter row takes care of that (since they are offset).
If the job specs call for 72" of I&W, wouldn't that mitigate the need for a starter row since the I&W has no joints - being a continuous roll?
"If the job specs call for 72" of I&W, wouldn't that mitigate the need for a starter row since the I&W has no joints - being a continuous roll?"Definitely not if the roof is three tab.See the pic attached to the first post in this thread:http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=35376.1&search=yTrue, it was tar paper under that roof, but I&W is not rated for direct exposure. It would probably fall apart at the cutouts just like the tar paper.If you're using dimensional shingles, it might hold up a little better than the tar paper, but if there is any gap at all for sunlight to get to the I&W, all bets are off. Starter is easy and cheap. A roofer is really squeezing those nickels to leave it out.
Rich BeckmanComing to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have no knowledge about I&W except what I have learned here. We dont use it here as we never get any ice that lasts. If you want any you have to special order it. I didnt think it would stand direct exposure but I wasnt sure.
I have seen #30 felt hold up once in that instance. The roofer put starter on but they were even with the shingles on top so it wasnt doing anything at all.
It probably would in a perfect world but why take the chance of ruining your warranty over $50 in materials.
Especially on a 50 year roof.
Here is a thread on the topic that contains some good pics:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=35376.1
And two more threads that cover the same ground without the pics:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=22971.1
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=19321.1
Rich Beckman
Coming to the Fest? Don't forget pencils!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>50-yr architectural laminate shingles (Owens Corning); 72" of Grace I&W on eaves;<<<<
I'll agree with everybody else who has posted - starters at eaves are needed to prevent leaks at the first course seams. Seams in starter course are staggered from the seams in the first visible course.
Perhaps your roofer (same as next door??) is counting on the Grace to divert the leaks? Grace should be a second line of defense, not the primary.
Your roofer may have simply omitted the mention of a starter course in the specs - TMI which would confuse the HO?
I have always used a starter course - just like the manufacturer tells you in the instructions.
I have heard several schools of thought on how to apply the starter course:
1) just invert the shingle and lay it with the "top" down ( normal 3 tab style shingle).
2) Cut tabs off of the starter course singles and lay in normal orientation. In the case of architectural shingles, you would be cutting off the, normally exposed, built up area.
I subscribe to #2 above because, 1)this leaves the sealing strip intact and provides a seal at the edge of the eave, 2) makes the first course lay flat and 3) stiffens the shingle overhang and helps to reduce / eliminate drooping.
I would expect the metal drip edges at the eaves and rakes to be in the specs from your roofer. Drip edges = "metal" as mentioned by Piffin.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
A starter strip can be cut and inverted shingles, or a roll product can be used called "shingle starter."
If you saw neither, but simply the first course going down over the underlayment, you have reason to be concerned.
One important function of the starter course, in addition to those mentioned above, is that the first full course relies on the tar strip of the starter course for wind resistance, just like all the courses above. One of my pet peeves is that most roofers prefer to just turn a full shingle upside-down for a starter, rather than cutting the tabs off to do it properly. This places the tar strip too far up to be effective .
}}}}
Edit: Ah, by the time this was posted, I see that Jim addressed this issue.
Edited 7/2/2007 10:17 am ET by Ted Foureagles
Didn't even think about that... That first course would fly right off in a stiff breeze.
You are quite right. Most shingle warranties call for starters rather than just inverting the first row, but all the roofers here just invert, and while I have frequently had to replace shingles blown off after high winds, for some reason it's never the first course. Maybe I've just been lucky.
Soldier courses up the eaves may or may not help with blow offs, but the roof sure looks better.
Since OC's instructions call for the starter, and they sell special bundles and rolls of starter row, I would feel confident that it is required for the warranty to be in effect.
It makes you want to keep an eye on the whole job.
Make sure they use nails, NOT staples, too. Most roofing packages call for at least 4 nails per unit, good roofers use 6.
Make sure new boots are used over the pipes and that they install NEW roof vents with the number up to recent code.
You install the starter strip upside down, so that the slots point upslope. That puts a solid layer of shingle under the slots of the first "real" layer of shingles.
Some people cut the individual shingles off, leaving a solid piece of shingle material about 7" wide and 3' long. If this is not done, you get a sort of hump about 1" up, especially if this is the second layer of shingles done this way.
Wow - I guess I really touched a nerve on this one. These are the most and quickest replies I've ever received to one on my questions! As always, I appreciate the time people have put into their responses.
The story continues. I talked to my neighbor about the lack of a starter strip. We looked at the shingle wrapper - sure enough it's listed in the installation instructions. For kicks we looked at another neighbor's roof that was replaced by this same roofer last year - his DID have a starter course. We're starting to think it's a function of this crew.
My neighbor confronted the crew leader this morning (politely), and after getting a few different lines of double-talk (been doing it this way for 20 years, the I&W shield prevents problems, etc), he conceded that they should install the starter course. Since the roof is 90% done, they now need to do some uninstalling to install the starter course.
At first I thought - it's not the roofer (owner) that's a problem, it's his crew. But having given it more thought it seems that the owner should know what his crews are doing - even to the point of stopping by the job to check things out. This particular crew has not impressed - they are on day 5 on a 30-square roof (12 pitch). Not that I equate speed with quality, but the crew packs it in around 3:30 every day.
So as we speak I have another roofer measuring my roof for a bid. What a hassle to get the job done right. But I only want to do this once. This new roofer did my other neighbor's roof earlier this spring. Any tips regarding how to evaluate his work on my other neighbor's house?
Thanks again.
Rob (different user name on my work computer, and too lazy to log off and sign-in with the RobRing user name)
Asphalt shingles seal to themselves via the sticky tar strip on the underside. Without the starter strip, the first course won't have anything to bond to. Also, the slots and ends of each shingle need another shingle underneath to provide protection.
Your I&W shield may provide for the starter strips, but I've not heard that before. What's the roofer say about starter strips?
pat
I would use lead stacks on the pipes, not plastic or metal with rubber. Why a 5 year boot on a 50 year roof?
"Your I&W shield may provide for the starter strips, but I've not heard that before"nobody has because it isn't in the cards.At any point on the roof, there is a minimum of twolayers of shingle material.. Three at the headlap.Do away with the starter and you only have one layer there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In 35 years i have never seen it done without a starter strip, I use a whole regular comp shingle turned upside down, I never have had a proplem on the Oregon coast, I know then theres no tar spot but i will add one if i think it needs one, Whats more important here is to give enough overhang so water goes into the gutter but not too much for wind to catch, Many people want there rake metal on top here, I do what they want and i ask before, proplem is half the neighbors and friends will tell them it should be there way, I myself run a full tab over the metal out 3/4 of an inch then cut to that
I buy the starter strips now, but I've done many roofs with the 3 tab turned upside down for starters. Most of the dimensional shingles have the seal strip on the bottom edge rather than the top side around the nails, so it doesn't much matter if the tabs are cut off or not.
I also run a starter up the rakes. Looks cleaner from below.http://grantlogan.net/
Sometimes, when I lie in bed at night and look up at the stars, I think to myself, "Man! I really need to fix that roof."
BobRing, you've done us all a wonderful thing, in that you have taken the time to get back to us and tell the rest of the story, or at least most of the rest.
Too many posters ask a q, don't seem to bother to address the follow-on questions that inevitably pop up, and leave the regulars with a sense of . . . wha' happened?
So please, tell us how it all shakes out, in the end.
Gene, "So please, tell us how it all shakes out, in the end."" Thought he was using shingles not shakes. ;-)"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Maye the crew was trained by HD? <G>
I tried to save myself some effort by buying starter strip for my last big roof project, since i don't buy that flipping shingles is good enough; it makes sense to me that the tar strip be at the bottom edge. The boys at HD contractor desk said they hadn't heard of that product, but the architectural shingles didn't need a starter strip anyway.
I thought it was remarkable they would recommend that without having a vested interest in saving labor or cost of materials.
I sure did like the free delivery to the roof, though...and the two young boys they included to distribute them where i directed. That was some freebie....40 miles from the store.