I just finished doing a little framing for an investor I met recently. I went over to his project on Sat to check on something and I saw something i’ll never forget.
This guy found someone to tile his whole bathroom for $300 (about 130sqft). For this price the guy was also installing his own Hardibacker.
I was in the livingroom talking to one of my guys when we start to hear banging coming out of the bathroom. “This guys installing hardi, what the hell is he hammering?”
In the bathroom is his 14(?) year old son, and he’s “installing” the hardibacker in the shower area.
I had to look twice, not only was it 1/4″, it looked like it was all scrap, a bunch of small pieces.
The banging?
Roofing nails of course.
I warned the owner, the tile went up anyway.
No wonder I get outbid.
Family…..They’re always there when they need you.
Replies
>>.....an investor.....<< translates as "house flipper" - I won't work for them around here. They all want fast, cheap work which will look good for the fast first impression only -- generally the buyers will find all of the screw ups but by then it is too late - they own it. When the new buyers find the screw ups and want it re-done right -- they become my clients.
The 1/4" on walls is not manufacturer approved as you know.
But, I actually think the roofing nails are.......I know Hardi says OK on floors, not sure about walls.
I always use the cement board screws no matter what.
Jim
The only reason I worked for him was because he took my price. I usually tell investors they can't afford me but there were some structural issues with this place so for me, he paid.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Leave your business card and tell him to call you when the tile cracks and falls off.
I install backer board with roofing nails. Just because you fall for the clever advertising of the over priced screws doesn't mean it's the wrong choice. For what it's worth, roofers don't mushroom the backer board. Makes for a nicer install.
Quality concerns aside, it drives me nuts reading complaints from people who are seemingly only half educated about the task that they are complaining about. Vic
Seems to me that it's worth it to use the reccomended fastener for the job. One less reason for a call back. But what does my half educated #### know?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Didn't realize I was so stupid. I'm going to start using luaun to sheet my shower walls.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
No Luaun is a poor choice. Can't you get 3/8" osb where you live?
Can't you get masonite there? with the pegboard holes it drains better.
Evidently that would be too thick.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Recommended by who? Someone who also sells screws they want you to buy? Millions of square feet of all brands of backer boards have been installed using roofing nails with nary a problem.
I knew where your story was going when I read the part about not knowing what the hammering noise was for a backer board install. Limited experience with a complain based on said experience.
Don't feel bad. It seems to be the rule more than the exception around here. Vic.
You use drywall screws in your joist hangers don't you?Look, I'll concede to you that the roof nails will live but when I see a bunch of pieces of 1/4" hardi that don't span more than two studs, I get a little worried.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I dunno. Roofing nails? Aren't they smooth-shanked? I mean, I'm sure they come in ring-shank too, but all the ones I've ever bought have been smooth. What about nail pops? I'd think they'd spell catastrophe for a tile job.
I wouldn't have a problem using ring-shanks, but I tend to like screws as well. Pretty much guaranteed they ain't gonna back out.
Jason
Jason,
Has that been a problem for you? And what is your profession? Vic
And what does using scrap pieces have to do with anything? Is there a physical limitation to Hardi's recommended size? Can the 3x5 sheets be cut? Is 3x 2.5 good? How about 1.5 x 5? I'm unclear what the limits are. I've always figured as long as it's attached properly and firmly, and the seams are mesh taped with backer tape and thinsetted, there would be no problems.
I regularily use pieces. They are mostly 3x5 ft pieces. I nail them tight and mesh then tape the seams. Sometimes the custom size showers I construct are not designed in incriments of 3ft by 5ft and I do have to cut a sheet. I really hope those homes do not fall down, now that you have pointed out the error of my ways. Vic
Well I did see a couple of 1x1 pieces in a few corners. Guess I'm wrong in thinking walls should be thicker than 1/4".
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
1/2 inch. At least you got that part right. Vic
A little defensive are we? Did I hit a sore spot Vic?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Yes. You did hit a sore spot. I already mentioned it. People who post on the internet about other peoples work while not fully knowing what they are talking about. Granted, the 1/4 inch backer was the wrong material. But what lead to your discovery was your wondering what the banging noise was. The way you worded that post led me to believe you think there is obviously something wrong with using roofing nails to attach backer board. There isn't. I read that as a lack of experience on your part. And I don't think those with limited experience should try to find fault with the work done by others.
I'd say I've been building showers for roughly 15 years at an average of 10 showers per year. That makes for around 150 showers. Also guessing here, I'd say around 75% of them were backer nailed with roofing nails. Not one call back as of yet. Easily over 100 showers, no call backs. What is your track record? I could be wrong here, you could be a shower expert. But I am guessing since roofing nailed backer board was so foreign, your experience has been limited. Again, I could be wrong.
To make amends, I'll leave this thread with a tip. When using screws, they are sometimes hard to get started, even with an impact drill. To make them sink in easier, run the tip of the phillips bit into the backerboard a touch. That will make a nice countersink starter that doubles as a pilot hole. It doesn't have to go in deep. Helps keep the tip of the screw from wandering before it bites and drills itself through. Vic
the install could very well turn out well and last for 40 years... just because it wasn't the way you or I would have done it... doesn't mean the guy who did it did it poorly or that it wo't stand the test of time... what the manufacturer wants is to suggest an install that is idiot proof to protect themself...
i never slam anyone who gets the job done with what they have to do it with..
jmho
:)p
So you reccomend 1/4" underlayment to all your bathroom customers for their shower walls?Why not just use green board?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
not sure how you read that into what i wrote... but have'n never tried it and not knowing the stud spacing... or what might back it.. i can't say... but if it was topped with 16" or 18" tile i could see where it'd work out with no problems... and prob would be beter than some i've seen
p
and for a totally different take on tile...
DW would 'howl' if'n I ever suggested installing grouted tile anywhere...
She cleaned enough of it working her way thru school that she never wants to see a greasy grout line again in her entire life.
I installed tile and grout over someone elses hardi on floors. they used crown staples and no adheasive on the backer board. I took pictures just in case. BTW I use a Senco duraspin collated screwgun w/ square drive heads. (when I install backer) works good and just as fast as nailing by hand.