Question for Blue/others Wall Framing
To all but Blue especially,
I’m curious about your methods of laying out wall plates and wall framing, as well as your methods of actually building the wall (I’m referring to the order in which you do it etc) What I am specifically looking for is, as Blue would put it…….. saving seconds on repetitive tasks.
I typically tack my two plates together on edge and then run the sixteen on center layout . Then cut it to length ( all this is done on the chopsaw bench and extension) and afterwards I place it where it goes I then lay out the windows and doors. We then stock the wall with studs pushed tight against the plate after which we pry out the tacks and take the plate farthest from the studs and put it at the other end of the studs. It becomes the top plate.
I have read Larry Haun’s book ” the very efficient carpenter” and have adopted a few of his techniques but a lot of them I am not comfortable with. Anyway let’s have a discussion about little things that save time. A few seconds here and a few seconds there add up very quickly. I am not talking about things that are going to be detrimental to quality but that save time in general.
There have been times when I will tack several sets of plates together and then lay them all out at once.
Also how about some feedback from those who use a “layout stick” to mark their studs. Do they really save time? and do they affect accuracy due to accumulated error? What tricks do you have?
Always looking to do things faster and better.
Mark
P.S. GABE : Keep your mouth shut about Blue being a hack in your opinion yada yada yada. That is bullcrap in the first place and secondly is not what this discussion is about. I want to have a serious discussion on this topic. So unless you have something useful to contribute then stay out of it. Thank you .
Replies
Doc,
Here is a speed tip, We use a 8" or larger skill to cut plate. Snap lines on the deck when its ready. Lay 2x plate out (nailed together) Cut both plates @ once. Then we start building walls. We try not to move the material anymore then we have to!
As the layout stick goes, never used one.
Prof,
Here is how I do it and it has really worked well for the last 2 years. I'm always willing to try new things though, so if you have any suggestions, please make them.
Once lines are snapped, I assign jobs to all the guys. There are 2 of us who have experience and 2 guys part time that are still new. I do all the layout (95% of the time). I have one guy scatter plate material for the outside walls. I have one guy cut window and doors packages and one guy build all the corners (2 2x6 nailed as an "L" for corners and partitions). When the guys scattering plates is done, he will cut all the trimmers and start nailing them to the king studs (opposing the crowns).
I have a Mag modified with the BigFoot 10 1/4" blade, that I use to cut plates. I also have an 8 1/4" Skil modified to take a 9" blade (no guard) so I can cut 2 plates at once. If the wall is long, I tack the plates together in one place with an 8d. If they are shorter than 18' (our standard length), then no nail. I start by drawing a 5 1/2" line on the plate and lining that up with the snapped line on the deck. I then layout all the windows, doors, posts for holddowns, beam pockets, etc. once that is done, I layout all stud lines using my BigFoot layout stick. Then I mark the plate for the line on the floor at the other end, add 5 1/2" and cut. I move on to the next wall that can be framed (usually if we start in the back, then we'll do all parallel walls).
I have used a layout stick for the last 4 years with 0 problems of accumulated error. I have never had to add a stud except for those times where I make a mistake. The layout stick is very accurate. I use the one that has both 16" and 24" centers. It goes really fast.
By the way, we use a 12" DeWalt slider and stand to cut window cripples and sills. Usually we have many of the same height windows and you can set the stop and cut a mountain of material very quickly.
It's hard to write out the process and make it understandable, so if you have any questions, please ask. I love framing and discussing framing (I'm a nerd :-))
Oh yeah and if you sheathe your walls with ply or osb while they are on the ground, buy a router. I don't care what anyone says, we've done the test and comparison (between a saw, router and chainsaw) and the router is by far the fastest method and cleanest. http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41b1de4100010c8727177f0000010564/UserTemplate/82?s=41b1de4100010c8727177f0000010564&c=84c534ed7e10082a801a7ba2b7012d20&p=1#tool
Check that link out. There is a short blurb on routers that I wrote summer before last for JLC. It's short, but the pics show how we use the router.
Tim,
Thanks for your post. I'm always interested in what you have to say. I do use the router for my openings and you are right it is the most efficient and also the best way from a quality standpoint that I have seen. You also made several other points which I find interesting.
My methods are similar in some respects but since I don't do it everyday I do have some variations mainly due to not necessarily having the same help all the time.
I would love to have a bigfoot saw but for the amount of times I would use it I haven't wanted to spring for it. I do use worm drive saws. Used to have a bunch of sidewinders but only one of them now and it is mostly used for siding.
Lot of good posts here with a lot of good information.
Thanks.
Your method of framing sounds pretty much exactly like I do it, too. I might take a little more time on some parts of the project to make time on later parts of the project. I love those Bigfoot saws and the 12 inch chop saws.
I'm always taken with how other's organize wall framing. Chop saws, prebuilding corners and backers.....
I make a cut list the day before and hand the list to my brother. But it's only for common sized things (12 windows all the same). The one-offs like kitchen windows I just cut on the spot. I've found it takes too long to label, stack, pick up, move..... and then nail a single header, sill and crips. I've spent too much time trying to figure out what my brother wrote or where the kit is....
He also crowns all the studs in a unit and stacks on the floor deck. Pretty fast operation. Crap becomes blocks and crips.
I lay out the whole floor deck with lines before letting anyone stack stuff on it. Exterior walls snapped for precision (I don't just go by the floor deck). Interior walls snapped off exterior walls.
Long walls always need multi lengths of stock to make up wall. I like brakes to fall at studs so I trim the 16' or 20' stock (usually an inch or two too long) to length. I don't measure though. I just slap the stock on the wall line and look for a nail line in the floor sheathing. Cut there.
I lay out plates on the flat in place. I know on edge is faster but I've done it this way for over 20 years and can't break it.
Intersecting walls are obvious from layout of floor - that locates backers. I layout windows before stud layout. Find centers and use a window layout stick (for common windows) to mark king.jack positions. Layout stick is just a furring stick with a center mark and J and K at ends.
Then I go back and do the stud locations. I skip studs that fall really close to KJ's.
Spread plates, tack bottom to line, drop common window packages on spot. Spread studs (crown up) and nail to bottom plate. Then apply top plates.
I frame out corner and partition backers on the spot - not prebuilt.
While I'm doing up the common openings and nailing studs my brother cuts the individual window and door kits and drops them in the holes. He usually keeps just ahead of me so I don't have to return.
We square the wall, check to make sure the bottom plate is still on line and sheath.
I layout floor joists or roof rafter positions on top plate before lifting. I also mark interior wall positions on top plate. That way there's no need to plumb the interior walls when lifted. Provided everything is laid out square on the floor deck - they will be precise.
Only bearing interior walls are built before second floor or roof is set. Partition walls are pick-up work after the ceilings are strapped.
MG
P.S. GABE : Keep your mouth shut about Blue being a hack in your opinion yada yada yada. That is bullcrap in the first place and secondly is not what this discussion is about. I want to have a serious discussion on this topic. So unless you have something useful to contribute then stay out of it. Thank you .
I'd like to thank you for your kind words. It shows the amount of class you have managed to accumulate over the many years that you have shared our oxygen.
For the benefit of others who have made better use of this shared oxygen I will share my comments.
I always start off marking all my door and window opennings on the perimeter floor edge. I also mark off any intersecting walls.
I then lay out my 2 plates so that whenever possible, the joints end up either in a doorway, window header or if all else fails in the center of an intersection wall end.
I always mark my plates on edge and I aways use my tape instead of a framing square.
I always use a double plate on top to lock in and stiffen all the walls. I never tack my plates together and I always cut them in place with my skillsaw.
I haven't the time to read Larry's books but then again, most pros don't know what a Larry Haun looks like or would even care.
The only intelligent thing that I can ever remember Blue saying was that only by experience and repetition does one actually learn what's needed and what's not. Too bad he doesn't learn from his own experiences.
Gabe
I haven't the time to read Larry's books but then again, most pros don't know what a Larry Haun looks like or would even care.
Ya had me for awhile..... but you lost me with this statement. I'd reverse it to say that most hacks don't know what a Larry Haun looks like or would even care. Tradesmen devoted to continuing education are always on the lookout for ways to become better, faster, and more marketable. This occurs two ways.... experience and continuing education. It's pretty much impossible to read the books and publications currently available and not come across Larry's name. Larry is the grand poobah of production framing and while I'm not a production framer (like to consider myself a custom framer if a name tag is needed) much of his skill set and experience is very useable.
Larry is the grand poobah of production framing
He may be a reasonable writer about production framing but he's far from being the grand poobah of production framing. He's a good basic framer with the ability to convey to others the basic skill of framing, in writing, period.
I've got a buddy of mine who is one of the biggest subtrade contractors in the country. Did 82 million dollars of framing, finishing last year alone.
He can watch a crew for 5 minutes and know if they will need supervision or be okay on the lines. He can schedule a 200 home subdivision in an hour. He knows the cost of framing down to a nickel. He can walk into any framing job, point out every code violation, every missing piece of blocking and every deviation from the plans.
But personally, he couldn't frame a simple cottage in two months much less in a week and a skill saw would be a very dangerous tool in his hands.
The truly great framers have their own highly skilled methods for doing their work. It doesn't come from books, it comes from observation, experience and having the good sense to never do the same screwup twice.
They have a natural eye for plumb and level. They also have a keen sense of where their feet are. It wouldn't make any difference whether a skill saw was in their hands or a hammer, both will be deadly accurate.
Experience is continuing education.
Larry should continue writing, I'm sure that tens of thousands will find it entertaining and informative.
BUT it certainly isn't required reading to frame a house.
Gabe
I stand corrected.... "your buddy" is the grand poobah of production framing.
Feel better?
No he's not and I never said he was. I'm not as good a writer as Larry otherwise you would have gotten the point.
Gabe
I got your point Gabe, I was being sarcastic in response to the fact that you have completely missed the point on my original post. The point wasn't that Larry Haun is "the best" at anything, only that he had alot to offer and that anyone who reads much of anything about framing will eventually come across Larry's name. Most guys that I consider to be "pro's" do read a bit about the trade they practice daily.
You'll argue anything, won't you?
I was being sarcastic
Yes you were but that's not the reason you missed the point.
You had already made up your mind to overlook any good points that I may have posted in my original posts in which I shared with you my personal preferences in laying out for framing, the plates.
Instead you focused on my little digs on Larry.
Too bad you need so much sugar in order for you to digest what's put before you.
Gabe
I had already made up my mind? What are you psychic now? Or just paranoid? I honestly don't have an opinion of you one way or the other, although now I'm beginning to form one.
The problem I had wasn't your "digs on Larry", it was your insinuation that a "Pro" wouldn't be bothered with reading anything Larry wrote. Therefore, "wouldn't know what a Larry Haun is".
Get your facts right, stop trying to read my mind, and lose that gigantic chip on your shoulder, would you?
I honestly don't have an opinion of you one way or the other, although now I'm beginning to form one.
Whatever..........I don't recall asking for your opinion of me, only of the info that was provided.
You originally said that you were with me, (regarding my personal framing sequence) "until" you read the comments about Larry.
BTW don't have time for chips on either of my shoulders. Having way too much fun being me.
Gabe
What an A hole.
Sure sounds like being you is a real blast.
If you're refering to some obscure ground hogs and some hand grenades that someone left lying around, I had nothing to do with that blast. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:) Gabe
Gabe,
First off, don't take this post personally (in a negative way). Your post got me thinking and I figured I'd post my comments.
The truly great framers have their own highly skilled methods for doing their work. It doesn't come from books, it comes from observation, experience and having the good sense to never do the same screwup twice.
I have to disagree a little with the above statement. I was taught to frame by a very conscientious framer. He taught me all the principles to correctly frame a house and to make sure that any mistakes on the prints were caught before it became a big problem. Here is where I disagree with your comment above. While it's true that I can develop highly skilled methods through observation, experience, and common sense, there might still be better ways that I can only learn from reading magazines, books and participating in forums such as this. If my experience is limited to the kind of houses I frame, in the area I frame, with guys who are similar in their narrow scope of experience, I won't be as diversified. When I buy a book on framing I am my eyes are opened to a completely different perspective.
For example, I have a ton of framing books. I have a book called "Rough Framing" by Mark Currie. I have "Precision Framing by Mike Guertin. Those two books are incredibly different. Mark is a production framer. Mike is a meticulous framer who is not a production framer first. I personally fall somewhere in the middle. Sometimes to one end of the spectrum depeding on circumstances. My best techniques are copped from those books (and other books and guys here and JLC and Joe Fusco's forum). I know for a fact that many or most of these techniques I would not be using (at 27 years of age) if it wasn't for these resources.
Let me give you some idea of how this has helped me. I run a framing crew for my father's residential business and my brother. 4 years ago (before I had any books or the internet) it would take myself, the lead guy who taught me and one other guy about 3 weeks to frame a 2500 sq house all stick framed. We worked hard and did a good job. We just framed that same house about 2 months ago in 2 weeks. Here was the crew breakdown. It was myself as lead, 2 guys who work 3 days a week and my cousin (17 years old) after school. We sticked the roof (gang cut) and it is a flatter roof than we used to do. In fact one day, the guy (Dave) who taught me to frame helped me cut and stack the roof. It was the first time he had gang cut and we had a blast. There is no question in my mind, or my boss's mind that we frame faster and cleaner than ever before with about 1/2 the experience. Why? Because I didn't have to frame for 20 years and figure this all out. I read it in a book and adapted it to my site. This year my crew has almost tripled the amount of work we can do (with a forklift). I'm not bragging, we have a lot to improve. I'm just saying that if it wasn't for books like the two I mentioned and also Will Holladay's book, we would not be able to do the volume we are doing.
They have a natural eye for plumb and level. They also have a keen sense of where their feet are. It wouldn't make any difference whether a skill saw was in their hands or a hammer, both will be deadly accurate.
I believe that what you wrote can be taught. It's not necessarily intrinsically a part someone, although it can be.
Experience is continuing education.
That is rather narrow, there are many aspects of education. One would be educating yourself off the jobsite and applying on the jobsite. That is part of experience.
Larry should continue writing, I'm sure that tens of thousands will find it entertaining and informative.
BUT it certainly isn't required reading to frame a house.
I agree with you about Larry's work not being a requirement. I've done some reading of his work, but find it very basic compared to Mark's or Mike's books.
I'm glad you posted what you did because it sparks discussion. Don't take my post as anything other than my opinion. :-)
There is no question in my mind, or my boss's mind that we frame faster and cleaner than ever before with about 1/2 the experience. Why? Because I didn't have to frame for 20 years and figure this all out. I read it in a book and adapted it to my site.
I fully appreciate what you're saying but I want you to look at what you just wrote.
Somebody had the experience that you didn't and was able to articulate it in writing so that you could benefit from it. Great.
But, you probably took 70% of your mentor's experience and teachings, added10% of your own, combined the two to analyse the information that you found in various texts, sorted out the acceptable from the waste of time, and with a little ingenuety applied it to your needs and were able to benefit from it.
We all do the same. I read like it was a cure for cancer. 98% of what I read goes into the deepest corners of my memory files. But that magic 2% makes it worthwhile.
There's a program that I'm trying to initiate here and it involves building a large commercial project, be it a school, library, gymnasium, hospital, whatever.
It would be built by a class of workers wanting to improve on their respective trades. It would be taught by a group of senior foremen who are at the peak of their respective trades. The aim would be to prepare a group of future foremen to take over. I have received more offers of assistance from foremen who want to be part of this type of initiative that you could ever imagine.
We don't have time to teach on sites anymore. The schedules and budgets don't allow for it. We can do it under an adult education program and leave a top of the line building in it's wake.
We have ten's of thousands of carpenters who know nothing but laying sheets of plywood down for forming concrete decks. They can't installed a door or build a set of stairs.
We have an aging population in our industry as well. We have to be able to share this experience before it's loss.
This is one of the reasons that I argue the value of experience. Not that it's the only way but because it's not going to be around long enough to be shared with our brothers and sisters.
Gabe
We don't have time to teach on sites anymore. The schedules and budgets don't allow for it. We can do it under an adult education program and leave a top of the line building in it's wake.
We have ten's of thousands of carpenters who know nothing but laying sheets of plywood down for forming concrete decks. They can't installed a door or build a set of stairs.
We have an aging population in our industry as well. We have to be able to share this experience before it's loss.
I agree whole heartedly. One thing that scares me is that the industry seems to be making up for it by producing products that a monkey can install. You might not get the same solid built product but it looks good when it's first finished.
I'm seeing lots of things like Panelized walls, split jamb doors and other such things that offend me to no end. The trades are heading towards a slow painful demise and the suppliers are there to make sure anything really can get built by a monkey.
Somebody had the experience that you didn't and was able to articulate it in writing so that you could benefit from it. Great.
I think you are talking in cirlces because earlier you wrote:
The truly great framers have their own highly skilled methods for doing their work. It doesn't come from books, it comes from observation, experience and having the good sense to never do the same screwup twice.
If I didn't read what they wrote, I would never have been able to adapt that to my circumstances. From your earlier post, it seemed that you were saying that books aren't that beneficial, but now you are explaining why the books I've read were (are) beneficial to me.
The fact is that much of what we learn comes from reading and applying what we learn to our lives. I think that part of the problem in this country (not just in this industry) is that many don't take the initiative to educate themselves. For myself, I've been trying to learn trig. No one is making me, I just want to learn something that would be useful to me. I think that is a quality of most here are Breaktime. They are looking to learn and share what they have learned.
But, you probably took 70% of your mentor's experience and teachings, added10% of your own, combined the two to analyse the information that you found in various texts, sorted out the acceptable from the waste of time, and with a little ingenuety applied it to your needs and were able to benefit from it.
Isn't that what we all do with just about everything we learn (regardless of the source?). For instance, when I read your posts, I am reading it in light of all of my past experiences. I am "sorting out the acceptable from the waste of time" and with some ingenuity, using it to broaden my perspective. That is why I'm glad you posted. It gives me another perspective. What would I be without the ability or desire to learn from others, even if/when I disagree?
I think you and I are mostly on the same page, and the differences I see are probably the result of the inability of the printed word to accurately convey the total meaning of what you and I are saying to each other :-) Since I can't see you and hear you, I'm missing some very important aspects of communication.
My wife said to me today that it would be cool to meet some of the guys from Breaktime, especially those guys from back east (I'm in WA state). I told her "what if these guys who love to talk shop are really adolescent girls playing a really elaborate joke on me or trying to take advantage of me :-)
Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
Somebody had the experience that you didn't and was able to articulate it in writing so that you could benefit from it. Great.
I think you are talking in cirlces because earlier you wrote:
The truly great framers have their own highly skilled methods for doing their work. It doesn't come from books, it comes from observation, experience and having the good sense to never do the same screwup twice.
Can't resist that one. In the first paragraph I was commenting on what a good carpenter does (you) and in the second what makes a truly great carpenter (me). Naw, only kidding.
What I have been very consistent in writing about though is the value of experience, whether it's your own, your fathers, your mentors or even that of a stranger who can share via the written word.
Good chat
Gabe
Hmmm, so no one uses a "frame master"?You've seen them,those plastic things that hold studs on center while you nail them.Supposedly, you don't have to make stud lay-outs.
blue, did you mention that you can also square a wall using your 'manly' framing square tables?lol.
Tim, coming out here to east coast,eh?I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
Tiz,
Someday I would like to come back east and visit some of you guys. I think it would be kind of cool.
That's funny FramerT...one problem though....my manly framing square doesn't have any of those tables. I the old Stanley "homeowners" square which give tables for pilot holes in softwood and hardwood...which I find quite useful but never follow.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
P.S. GABE : Keep your mouth shut about Blue being a hack in your opinion yada yada yada. That is bullcrap in the first place and secondly is not what this discussion is about. I want to have a serious discussion on this topic. So unless you have something useful to contribute then stay out of it. Thank you .
I'd like to thank you for your kind words. It shows the amount of class you have managed to accumulate over the many years that you have shared our oxygen.
For the benefit of others who have made better use of this shared oxygen I will share my comments.
This actually shows your lack of class Gabe. While I agree with you politically and on a lot of other things as well ..... your constant carping about Blue is exactly what I wanted to keep out of this thread. As you can read above I never said don't post, just to keep your post on the subject...... ie. useful(pertaining to wall framing methods) But no you have to go off on me and on Blue which shows your complete lack of class at least in this area.
YOu have a lot to add to this forum and I enjoy most of your posts and actually agree with a lot of them but in this case you are out of line. This is an open forum so I can't stop you but it does say something about you .
BTW. I thought you were right on in the other thread regarding the crack in the basement floor. I was reading thru it and was going to post essentially the same thing but you beat me to the punch. Always amazes me how people who know absolutely nothing about concrete go off half cocked about it. As soon as the original poster described it I knew it was a shrinkage crack and nothing to be concerned about.
your constant carping about Blue is exactly what I wanted to keep out of this thread
1st...you weren't a member when he left the first time, vowing to never return and called us all names on his departure.
2nd...you fired the first volley that really wasn't called for. If you want to dialogue privately with the booger than there's a new invention called Email.
3rd...don't need your approval, blessing or even agreement on any subject to continue posting here.
Gabe
Gabe,
1 I am well aware you don't need or want my approval and I don't care one way or the other.
2 Since I started the thread I felt it appropriate to try and confine it to the subject of wall framing .
3 I could have easily sent Blue a private email but that would have kept his information from everyone else which is not the purpose of this forum. Blue has a lot of good ideas as evidenced by his last post. You may not agree but this is an open forum and there are many who want to hear what he has to say.
4 This has sparked a good discussion which will probably continue and we can and are all learning at least something from it. There has been a lot of good ideas presented by several posters.
Gabe, your mischaracterizing what I said when I left and also flat out lying. I've never called anyone anything.
I'm thinking of using the a** word with you, but that would only be an upgrade.
blue
Ps I'm just thinking of calling you something...but I still never have.
PSS get your facts straight and quit slandering people.Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Great thread... Thanks to blue, Tim, Mike, robert and everyone else that took the time to contribute and teach people (like myself) with much less experience...
Paul,
I'm like you. I come here to learn and if I can give something back, great. I've learned so much here that has helped me that I feel that I owe it to give back. I'm glad you found something I wrote useful :-)
Whatever............Slandering you...........you don't even know the meaning of the word. What I've always maintained is that only a fool would hire you to build their home, knowing the emphasis you put of shortcuts to fill your own pockets. Only a contractor who was a fool would hire you to work on their projects knowing that you were a liability to his comp. rate.
Slander you........ya right!
Gabe
Merry Christmas to you too Gabe!
I love the way you own up to slandering others. You dream up lies, then state them as facts, then switch the story and call all my clients fools.
All I can say Gabe, is life is too short to be filled with such venom. It is sad indeed that some people go through life, squandering their opportunity to be happy and to get along.
Happy New Years too!
blue
PS Now I have to alter my signature! You make my life hard!Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe! Also, please not that only fools would allow me to frame their houses!
To all,
I must throw a "Blue" off my sites at least once a month. A few months ago it was a painter and recently it was a roofer. A couple of projects ago it was a forming carpenter.
In my line of work, I can't afford to have them on my sites. To them the rules are for everyone else. The code is a nuisance that was designed by government types who don't know construction. The safety regulations are just meant to cost workers time and money.
If a "Blue" comes to my site and has one of his crew or himself injured with a "Blue" modified saw, he gets fined about a grand. I get fined about 5 grand and the company that I'm supposed to represent will get a fine of about 25 grand. If the injury proves fatal, you multiply that by 10. If negligence is proven, jail time.
That's fact and a reality of construction.
When I hire a subtrade, it's not to redesign my building. It's already designed and a group of professionals takes full responsibility for the integrity of that structure. I don't need a "Blue" taking short cuts because he doesn't know how to price work and therefore tries to make up any short falls by cutting corners or omitting material to save himself a few bucks. I remember reading in one of the recent posts that the writer had saved himself about $75. of 2 by's. 75 bucks on a house that could be worth 250,000. I'm sure it had an effect on the montly payments.
When I hire a subtrade, it's to do the job as it was intended and how it was bid by all the other competing subs.
On the other hand some GC's have no standards of quality. They build em to sell and then they're gone to the next site. The houses that they leave behind are the ones that we all read about in many of the posts on this forum. Foundations with structural cracks, slabs that are heaving, uneven temperatures inside the same room, roofs that leak within a few years, windows that leak, walls that sweat, floors that squeak, ceilings that sag, drywall screws that pop by the hundred.
Does the homeowner have any recourse from the architect that designed it if it wasn't built to his or her specifications, NO!
Call your builder, if you can find him or her and if you can, try to prove your case. Good Luck.
The national, state, city codes are minimum standards. Not what the best are built to. To build to a lower standard is just plain "Blue".
So have yourself a Merry Christmas yourself "Blue".
Gabe
Thank you for those holiday greetings Gabe.
Finally, you are getting into the spirit!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
>>>"I remember reading in one of the recent posts that the writer had saved himself about $75. of 2 by's. 75 bucks on a house that could be worth 250,000. I'm sure it had an effect on the montly payments."Just out of curiousity, what benefit to the occupants do you think those extra 2x's would have afforded?Or on the flip side, how was the overall quality diminished with the omission of those 25 studs?
Jon Blakemore
Good question Jon.
I posted a picture of a 12 unit that we framed in Pontiac, Michigan. The lumber sales rep told us that we saved the builder $5000 on that one building alone. We also passed inspection on the first try.
As framers, we don't reap any of the rewards for saving lumber, but I believe it's my professional and moral duty. The Gabes of the world seem to think that putting more of useless material in is better, but I disagree. My way allows for more insulation, uses less lumber and basically is just smarter. Anyone can blindly continue to build like thier great grand daddy's, but thnking Carpenters actually analyze whats truly needed and puts in the "correct" amount, in the correct manner.
It would be nice if Gabe could actually prove all the vile he regurgitates. It continues to look like he's a bit jealous when he explodes with all his big talk of $250,000 fines and jail time. I've had OSHA inspect my jobs. They cited one safety viloation that they told me I could appeal. I sent in the appeal and the OSHA regulators wanted a more technical explanation....one that I couldn't possibly do unless I hired lawyers. I now understand the CYA game...common sense does not prevail when government is involved.
I've also had my insurance carriers inspect my jobs...no problems, only one suggestion: "if you run power off a generator, install a GFI at the junction". All my ladders were good, I always cover floor openings, I insist on safe work practices, eyeprotection is mandatory unless the glass eye is already selected, "don't carry too much materials there young one", "don't run", "don't use ladders unsafe", yada, yada, yada I run one of the safest jobs that I've ever saw in framing. In fact, the primary reason that I've always run my own job is because I wanted to guarantee the safety of the crew as well as myself. When I worked for others, I was co-erced into doing some unsafe things, which were never repeated when I went on my own.
Gabe wishes he knew some real dirt on me, but alas...he can only blow Canadien smoke....
Oh yeah...Gabe would throw me off his job...Oh my...what will I do now?
Please Gabe...let me come back...I promise to do what ever you say. You are the most important service manager that ever was and I just want to emulate every thing you do. Please...let me come back. Please...I'll be agood boy and you won't get fined $250, 000!
Just give me one more chance.?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
As framers, we don't reap any of the rewards for saving lumber, but I believe it's my professional and moral duty.
You're killing me here with your BS. ROFLMAO
You may not get the refund on the lumber but again you never had to spend any part of your contract money to install it either, and that you keep in your professional and moral pocket.
Gabe
Just out of curiousity, what benefit to the occupants do you think those extra 2x's would have afforded?
Or on the flip side, how was the overall quality diminished with the omission of those 25 studs?
The point was that in the grand scheme, it costs more to talk about it than it did to do it. Secondly, was the omission the owner's idea and did he benefit from it?
Gabe
Just out of curiousity, what benefit to the occupants do you think those extra 2x's would have afforded?
Or on the flip side, how was the overall quality diminished with the omission of those 25 studs?
Somehow the original posts didn't have my response to you question, so I will try again.
The obvious benefit is that they got what they paid for, the designer/architect got what he asked for and the builder got paid for what he bid to do.
Aside from that..........One of the reasons that I use a tape when laying wall plates is to ensure that the sheating works out perfectly and no one has to hammer a stud over or toe nail the edge of one sheet to a stud that's had a compounded error. The studs that some try to omit are missed most by the drywallers and finishers.
A point that I haven't read in any of the posts regarding the markings is the use of a line with an "X" on the side that the stud goes and a line with an "O" on the side that the jacks go on. Don't have time to use different markers and colors and such. Pretty universal in use.
Gabe
Gabe,I would agree that the drywall and trim guys might miss some studs but most instances that I see the recommendation to skip a stud are near other framing members. When I'm screwing drywall of nailing trim, I almost always go off layout at the edges of windows and doors because I have at least a 100% bigger target to hit with my fastener.I think I will try employing Blue's two color layout technique. Frequently a helper (sometimes unfortunately it's me) will miss a window/door location and fill the area with studs. I like the clear notation of the locations which might help with these mistakes. We don't frame everyday so maybe this is just a mistake of not paying enough attention.
Jon Blakemore
Jon,
The trimmers also need a little meat to attach to. If the window casings are cheap and narrow it's one thing but if you have any kind of width to the casings it's nice to be able to firm it to the stud instead of drywall and insulation.
Marking out the windows, doors and intersecting walls with a paint marker along the perimeter on the floor sheating does a better job of reminding everyone what the intent is regarding not studding them in.
Gabe
Gabe,I would think that if your casings are wide enough to necessitate >3" of framing to fasten to than you're better off installing blocking or another king stud. It's only by luck that you have a stud close enough to your kings for extra nailing if you follow layout so I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting.I could mark the window and door locations on the floor sheathing with paint would work but I'd rather use a sharpie of keel which fits in my belt.
Jon Blakemore
In the colonial homes I often use 1 x 4 trim that's been custom shaped and rosettes in the top corners, extended bottom trim with a modest window ledge extension.
I have to confess that I used a red marking crayon to mark out the doors and such with the exception of the last one that I layed out for my son and I used a can of marking paint and found it faster to walk around and squeeze the trigger of the extension handle. The older you get, the taller you feel because it always seems like the distance to stand up increases with age also.
Gabe
Gabe,I didn't think about the paint can extension handle. To tell you the truth I have only used on of those tools a few times whereas I'm sure you've gone through cases of the paint in your line of work.Now you've got me thinking of all sorts of different applications for those handles. Another tool to fit in the trailer...
Jon Blakemore
Now you've got me thinking of all sorts of different applications for those handles. Another tool to fit in the trailer...
One of my carpenters rigged up one to use a can of insulation for those almost impossible corners that you find on most jobsites.
Gabe
I dont know why Im getting in this , but you have been objective.
My thoughts;
Ive been doing a lot of framing inspections lately and Ive had some problems to work out. One tonight that comes to mind I settled or I caused to get settled just today. A plumber had several pipes out of the wall. [inbedded in concrete] I didnt figgure turning the plumbing down was overall the best option cause the plumber couldnt fix it all with out contacting the builder and the owners are there every day. They were there while I was there. I called the builder and we worked out ways to conceal it and make the homeowner happy. I called the plumber and he said he would help in the effort which the builder appreciated. The owner is not going to know because there is going to be nothing to know. I went home with everyone happy and yes Im pleased. Thats a good day at my job believe me.
If I see anything that questions code or lessens the structures purpose Im in the position to say , "hey , lets talk about this". The builder or GC can think it over and the owner can be asked by someone. [anyone] If practices of some kind are accepted by all above then theres not a problem. If there is going to be a problem it will surface. Probably the GC will only take one butt chewing over a subs actions, maybe Im wrong. I would only take one over the same subject anyway.
I see a lot of things I dont like that I dont mention to anyone because in my opinion it doesnt question the integrity of the building. I could be a bitch on minor details or I can live with in boundries. I try to stay within accepted practices and of course code. I may however exceed code on a judgement decision. Any building offiical has the ability.
Im not going to get into any of this arguement for it isnt mine. Just a view point that this discussion gets seen by a lot of eyes here and on the job site for everyone to view.
Ive enjoyed the building points of the discussion. Its a treat. Thanks everyone.
Tim Mooney
Tim,In your professional opinion, do you require plates to be lapped?
Jon Blakemore
Im editing back in on my message . Im now in my office in the 2000 IBC, residential code book.
Wood walls shall be capped with double top plates. They "shall" overlap corners and intersections with bearing particians. End joints in top plates shall be off set at least 24 inches. Non bearing walls may have only one top plate when it is not part of a braced wall line .
Exception:
A single top plate may be used in cases where the studs support support joices and studs by a minimum of at least 1 inch. Then all joints , intersections, and corners must be tied with a 3 1/2 x 6 inch plate , joined by 6- 8d nails on each side of plate. [the length of nail would catch the stud also]
My interpatation is that any double top plate application would have to have over lapping top plates. Any single plate application would have to have metal plates joined correctly as mentioned above. Non bearing interior walls that brace the exterior wall add support to a braced line of wall. They should then be lapped with metal plates. Interior non load bearing walls that dont connect to an exterior wall should also have metal plates, but the code doesnt require it .[ judgement call by the building official on those walls in question]
Tim Mooney
Edited 12/7/2004 4:06 am ET by Tim Mooney
Edited 12/7/2004 2:41 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Another reason to use double top plates is your pre-cut studs are all made for two top plates. 92 5/8" & 104 5/8" for 8' and 9' walls. Cutting all your studs seems like a lot more work than putting on another plate.
Diamond, I think you misread the question.
I just wanted to chirp in here that you can get 94.25" precut studs if you want to frame the interior partitions with a single plate. The last time I saw them shipped was about 5 years ago but it was quite common in the early 80's.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I havn't seen the longer precut studs here yet, but then again I havn't asked for them either. I see no problem with a single top plate as long as everything stacks and use some sort of metal connector to join the walls together. I've done a lot of log homes and used to use an AC6 or AC4 to join my top plate to top of log wall, would work for framing as well. I'm not ready to go all the way into the advanced framing technique though I think a hybrid of current and advanced is the way to go.
Diamond, those 94.25 precuts are available, but uncommon...only the biggest lumberyards would have them. I really don't see anyone using them anymore.
Tying them with metal plates would be unnecessary under our codes because they would be considered non bearing. they also would have a very solid drywall backer on them which would effectively tie them into the adjoinging wall the same as the doubled top plate system does.
Log homes....now theres a huge exessive use of lumber....
blue Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I agree on the waste of lumber of log homes but some people have more money than sense. People would ask me what the advantages of log homes where and I would say the only reason to have one is that you want one. Seismic country dictates having a positive connection on your top plates, ( thats my guess anyway).
Professor,
I often build my walls before the foundation is ready. I only started doing it that way to keep my guys busy when we got ahead of the builder. I found that I liked it over building on the slab for a variety of reasons. For one, we could work in the shade if there was a tree available. I use my pump-jack scaffolding to set up a work platform to assemble the walls on. They lift the walls 8” off the ground. You can still walk over the walls during assembly but do not have to bend over as far all day. Even if there is no shade, not being on the “Rock” keeps the reflected sun from burning your face and eyes. It is a very comfortable way to assemble walls. Another advantage is it keeps the jobsite cleaner by consolidating the waste off the slab. It is also nice to be able to work directly off the lumber pile.
When building two stories, I build the second floor walls first. Stack them to the side then build the first floor walls and either stack or stand them. If the slab is there I stand them. I tend to not build first floor plumbing walls, as they usually need too much modifying to stand quickly. They are built in place most often.
I am usually the layout man and I work at saw horses standing up. I only pre cut and build the headers for build-up. The corners, T’s, and door/window bucks are assembled in place first. The studs/standards are then added so that they are not a hindrance to nailing the headers in. The double plate is put on if possible but often it is left for latter. It just depends.
When prefabricating walls prior to the foundation being finished I build and stack the walls in the order they need to be stood with the nearest-to-the-stack-walls on the bottom of the stack. The far side of the house is built and stacked last. The walls are numbered and the number of the wall is printed on the plan near it. Wall No.1 is built first and stood last.
I layout my walls by marking all the components of the wall first. I mark the corners, T’s, and windows/doors, with two pencil lines. I write the door/window/cased opening trimmer lengths in their space if they are not the standard 81-3/8”. I then use my tape and lumber crayon to mark the centers of the standard o.c. layout leaving any unnecessary studs out. I layout the studs to stack under the rafters and mirror the layout throughout the room.
If the jobsite’s size is not accommodating to this method then we improvise it as best we can. Sometime I get a couple of guys to start building the interior or second floor walls on a wall table setup in the garage and have others building the exterior walls in place.
If the house has most walls over 10’ tall or is on a foundation with to many drops then this method is not really a wise choice for that house and I revert back to the more conventional methods. It is also wise to no build wall sections that are heavier than two men can handle. I ask my guys to put three nails in the studs that will be used to carry the walls. It is also important to use good nails, like Duo-Fast, that have good glue on them so that they don’t come apart when being moved.
We do our assembly similar to some of the others here as far as nailing the stud to trimmer cripple with the crowns opposing each other. Studs are crowned up with no more than a ¼” crown allowable. We use a DeWalt 12” miter saw to mass produces cripples and blocks and windowsills, etc.
It is not always faster but it usually is. It certainly is not any slower and your back and legs feel much better at the end of the day. The quality of a house framed this way is first rate too.
Richard
Edited 12/4/2004 4:10 pm ET by Mr Jalapeno
I'm with G80104--we generally snapped lines on the deck and laid the plates down and sawed them with a "Skillsaw" right in place. I tried to make up headers ahead and label them, but no one read the labels, so it didn't help much. End up with stuff like a 30" header where there was supposed to be a 32" and then wonder why everything wasn't working.
I'm not a framer by trade and We allways hire framers when the job was to big for our crew. On the small jobs that we have done over the years I lay out the plates and rout 1/32" grooves 16" oc. With the help of a large (home-made) square straight edge. Me and my guys was never good at framing and we try to make it easier and anti-dumb for us. (non framers)
For cutting 2x4s and other sticks we made simple offset squares that kept the cut right on the line.without looking at the blade. Taking the wood to the miter saw it was wasting time.
If framing was my trade I' will look to build similar jig's and use similar ideas to speed-up the production. One thing that I' hate is the tape measure.
YCF Dino
Professor,
In from 1982 to about 1999 I framed everything from a 1200sqft Ranch on a block shell with truss roof to a 11,000 sqft Ranch with a stick framed roof and a 15 Layer soffit and facia.
Over the years I developed a way of doing things. Here's how I raise walls.
First, I make a cut list. I mean as much as I can figure out. For headers I order whatever I need. Anything 2X10 or 2X12 is cut from 16' boards. Two are crowned, set on a bench, flushed up and nailed in a few spots. Then I would lay out what was needed, mark with the square, Nail where the nails wouldn't get cut and then cut. I would try to get the 2X4 cap on also but you'll need a 10" saw. Window jacks and sills are cut and stacked nearby.
While this is going on, I lay out all the wall locations. I never just follow the floor. I always layout the outside box first. Then the rooms that must be a cetain size. Then everything else. Nothing fancy,a single line with an X to mark the side the wall goes on. Once that is done, I mark all the door oenings on the floor.
Next I run plates. I cut them on the deck. I keep a small 2X4 cut-off in my nail bag so I can get it right. First I lay down the Bottom plate. Then the second plate all the way around. I tack them together with Duplex nails. They are much easier to pull.
When all the plates are in place, I lay out all of the studs. I lay out the outside walls first. Next I find a location where I can snap a line across the top that represents a center. I do so in both directions. From there I lay out everything. Studs, windows, Doors ( interior ones are already marked, I just pull the lines up off the floor) floor
Now I'm ready to put them together. Remember I said I tacked all the plates together? Now, I just pick the wall I want to start with and push all the others out of the way. I tack the bottom plate in place. Then I push the top plate far enough away to squeeze some studs in. I only start the wall. I set it up, nail in headers and king studs and anything just enough to get the helpers going. Then I move on to another one. There in lies the secret. Any monkey can take already made pieces and nail them together. I am then free to start another one. When they are done, I come back, put on the top plate, Square it on the deck if I can sheeth it there, Drop the first sheet or two and then go start another wall. It keeps me busy but I'm moving forward all the time. I've always got three or four wals going at once.
One thing I almost forgot. I often lay out things like tubs, toilets, partition joists and such so that when I nail that third plate on there I can just bring them up to the top. I also like big clear marks. I used to work for a guy who would make a square line for the stud location and then run a line off of it's bottom at an angle to show where the studs went. The helpers had studs in the wrong spot all the time. It only takes a second to make a proper X.
Regardless of what Blue and Gabe finally decide about Larry, the real trick is to come up with your own system. Find what works for you and then demand continuity. If your guys start doing something the same way every time, it will become second nature. Then you can introduce changes as they become neccessary.
The last time I framed was in 2001. I came off of a seven month deployment and started back up again. I framed about a dozen houses before beinmg called back to active duty. I haven't framed anything besides my shed in the last three years. But, I am confident I could put my tools on tomorrow and go out and show a few people lots of new tricks. It's all about what works for you and sticking with it.
Oh yeah, any monkey can nail pieces together. But when you spot the one with a real interest in whats going on, Teach him. You may only get two or three years out of him before he moves on but thats two or three years worth of productivity you might not get otherwise.
Professor, I'm honored that you mention me....thank you. I've already read some real good posts and obviously there is a lot of talented people in here. I like to grab tidbits from all...then call it my own, but it's really a collective effort.
I was taught the standard way.....snap lines, lay two plates, tack together, layout with framing square, including all pars and windows. We had a bench man making window kits...occasionally he'd assemble three stud "bucks". There's nothing wrong with any of that, but it's not my way anymore.
I developed most of my "modern" ways during the several years that Forest and I worked alone. I taught Forest a lot and he taught me a ton. The following is the fastest way known to man.....so keep it a secret. Heres what I do if I'm framing a wall thats on the deck. I'll discuss table framing techniques somewhere else.
As soon as the deck is finished: walk around the entire deck marking all the out side and wall corners. Since I square up my foundtion sill plates to perfection, all 4" or 6" wall marks on the deck are derived from them, not from the joist framing. After all the corners are marked out, we team up and snap all the outside lines. This saves the tedious task of setting nails and walking back and forth. We also snap at least on main interior partition line while the deck is cleared.
As soon as the lines are snapped, grab the plans and markout all window headers as a team, including all intersecting partitions. This process is much faster with two guys because one keeps the plan and calls out the numbers, the other marks the centers. We typically mark all header requirements (such as 12" micro, or 2x12, etc) and indicate the rough openings.
This process takes ten minutes tops and will eliminate almost all mistakes.
We then each work our own walls, every man laying out for himself. I teach first day apprentices how to lay out their own walls if they are going to frame it.
I mentally analyze every wall that I frame and make conscious decisions about plate lengths before I start the process. For instance, if I'm framing a 36' wall, I won't use 2 16' plates and a 4', or two 14' plates and a 9'. I'd grab three 12' plates. I also analyze, BEFOREHAND, the raising requirements that my efforts will require. I"m a huge fan of using brick ties to secure the walls from sliding off when were lifting it. So, before I put any lumber on the deck, I usually nail down brick ties that straddle the snapped line. I put these every 8-10' and nail them into the deck on the inside of the line. Later, I'll bend them up and nail them into the bottom plate.
When I grab the plates, I use bad stuff (crowned) on the bottom plate and great stuff on the top. I stand the pieces and normally line them up on one end. If I'm stacking the studs on the joists, I drag my saw to the last possible stud and cut it half on, landing the cut on the center of the joist. Since my plates aren't nailed down, I simply make the top cut through both pieces, then roll backwards, then forwards. I realign the plates then gently bump the next pieces to them. At this point, I start marking all stud layouts, hooking my tape on the joint that I just cut. This is where I differentiate from most framers: I mark all the centers with a big fat black permanent marker. I can mark both plates as fast as I can walk. As I get to the end of the second set of plates, I mark the 12' or last stud and cut the next plate joint. I then gently rebump the plates and make the final cut to length. After marking all the stud centers for 16" oc with the black marker, I drop back and mark out all CRITICAL members of the wall with a pencil and my trusty mans framing square.
I beg all my guys to use this same technique.....the black marker on the centers. This creates a uniform method of quickly identifying what is a routine stud (I call them commons), and what is a king, or partition layout. The rookies (some of your have called them monkeys, but I find that term condescending...even if it is a term of endearment), are instructed that they are allowed to eliminate commons, or move them slightly, but have to strictly adhere to the sharp penciled layouts.
We then toenail the bottom plates ( I usually only toe nail in one spot...I'll do the rest of the nailing to the line as I install the studs) to the line.
We drop all the studs...ratt a tatt like a machine gun. I show the rookies how to grab 5 or six (now three since my back is flared up) and drop them rapid style...one per mark.
I then start installing the studs working from right to left ( I don't back up). I alwasy start on the bottom plate. I just fly hitting all the bottoms. As I make the turn, I line up the top plate on the edge of the deck, (since it's square, the wall will be framed square, and most likely will remain square, and won't need much adjustment squaring it). I then fly down the tops nailing all the studs again. Some of the guys leave out the studs close to the Kings, to facilitate nailing the headers, but I don't.
After I get my basic top plate, bottom plate and all studs nailed, I drop the header stock into the openings and cut them in place, by eye. I typically make great cuts, but if I goof up on the first header member, I cut the next one better and flip them, so the "perfect" one shows in the "finish" product. I also normally just nail the two header members together...I don't sandwhich a filler in all the time...sometimes I put the filler on top, or eliminate it all togther if I have to build the header down with 2x4 fillers.
After the headers are installed and nailed, I cut in the queens...by eye of course. Occasionally the header stock will be different heights. I customize the queens to fit each header tightly. If I ever miscut a queen, I simply hold it up tight to the header and leave the 1/8" gap on the bottom. Mea Culpa.
After installing the headers, I cut the cripples and cut in the sill and fillers...by eye. If you've been counting..I' only pull out my tape to figure the cripples. Even those I cut by eye against the mark I've put on the queen.
I then double up the top plate. I prefer to stagger the three 12' centered on the original sections, thereby creating the strongest possible double plate situation. I don't cut out any places to lap partitions.
I have a variety of ways to square a wall. It depends on my mood. Sometimes I use the sheathing. Other times I stretch a tape corner to corner. Still other times, I mark a 10' mark on top and bottom and square the first ten feet. Still other times, I mark two equal lines from the top and square up to them. Like I said...it depend on my mood.
Of course, like previously mentioned, I first double check to make sure the top and bottom plates are straight and parallel. It helps a lot to have a perfectly squared deck.
I layout the tops of the plates if necessary. It's never necessary if the joist are stacking...because they can just stack over the studs....theres no reason to re-lay it out. If its a truss roof situation, I layout the trusses and put on the overhangs. Lately, I have to put hurricane clips on...so I nail these on before I raise it (see, I'm still learning!).
We typically raise the walls with either the crane or the sky trak. The wall ties are great for keeping the wall perfect on the line.
Thanks for asking. I'll be printing this response out and some day will hand it to a rookie!
blue
Ps...Heres a posting hint for newbies. Since this is such a long post, I've copied it to my clipboard before I hit the "post" button! I've been burned before when the server fails and I have to do it all again!
pps heres some pics of some table framing that I did last week. The "table" is the last wall of the garage that I'll swing into place. The second pic shows the front walls of the garage waiting for their call. The third pic shows the reverse gabled wall of the garage taking off.
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
We then toenail the bottom plates ( I usually only toe nail in one spot...I'll do the rest of the nailing to the line as I install the studs) to the line.
Blue, I like to race the newer guys sometimes just to show them at what speed that can bang a wall together and not get sloppy. One of my tricks that I never teach them, is to nail the studs as you go while you toenail to the line. It saves a trip back down the wall. I also have this really great "behind the back toss" with a nail gun from my right hand to my left :-) It's a no look.
One of the things I like to do is to take the bigger wall and race one of the new guys. Almost always, my wall is sheathed and up and I get to help him carry his sheathing to him and rub it in the whole way about how either I must be really really fast or else he is really really slow and maybe his mom could come out here and work in his place cuz she is probably tough enough for this kind of work and he isn't.
Some guys laugh, some don't. I l
You sound like your having fun Tim.
I work very hard at not making multiple trips on the walls. It's obvious that you do too.
I actually don't "race". I just go my same speed....if someone's faster, I'm going to start watching them to pick up some additional techniques.
About that teasing....I just found out this week (listening to a great tape by Joe Girard, the world's greatest retail new car salesman) that people do not like to be teased, despite the common misperception that it is okay to do it. I never really thought about teasing like that and I've decided that I'm not going to tease anymore. It was common to call each other little girls and stuff like that, but as I get older, I could see how it would actually de-motivate some people...especially the sensitive types.
You gotta change your ways....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Aww criminy, now you've almost got me thinking :-) I'll think about it.
Can I still throw rocks at the Honey Bucket?
Blue.
Thank you for an excellent post which obviously took a lot of time to put together. There has been some great information presented so far but I think I enjoyed yours the most and got the most out of it.
I share some of your methods such as snapping out the whole deck first. I won't even let the guys put a stick of wood on it until that is done. And doing it that way I have found that tweaking wall locations if needed is much easier than after the outside walls are up. Saves a lot of grief.
I think the best tip you suggested is the idea of using masons wall ties to keep the bottom plate from sliding when the wall is stood. Fantastic Idea. I have also used your idea of squaring the wall off of the lines snapped in the corners in order to get it close in the first place. Trying to move long walls to get them square can be heavy work so the closer they are to being square in the first place, the better.
I also take into account the most efficient use of my lumber lengths when deciding what to use for the plate stock.
I do usually lap my top plates where interior walls meet the outside walls. I see a lot of guys who dont' but I like the extra strength provided.
Another point you brought up is the use of two different markers for common studs vs pars, corners, kings, cripples etc. I can see where that saves a lot of confusion for your help.
thanks for taking the time Blue and if you think of anything else post it.
Mark
guys thanks for all the posts and keep them coming. To me it is about picking out methods that you feel will fit your system and make it better. Or even changing your system. Like Mike Geurtin (I hope I spelled that right) I don't frame full time because I am a GC doing a lot of my own work as well as still subbing for other GC's. So when I do frame I want to be as efficient as possible.
A lot of good information has been presented so far. But I believe there is more to be looked at. Guys like Joe Carola haven't been heard from yet. We all have something to offer.
Thanks to all
Professor, there are several reasons why I don't cut out the top plates for laps. The biggest reason is quality, followed very closely by speed. Additionally, there is less chance for air leakage and lastly the framing just looks better.
It is substantially faster to run the doubled top plates solid. Its also eliminated a ton of 1.5" mistakes that occur when tapes get hooked on the wrong plate for measurments and squaring.
I believe it makes for a much higher quality job for several reasons. First and foremost, walls without cutouts are substantially stronger. In fact, it doesn't take a structural engineer to figure that they are TWICE as strong. Because they are stronger, they are actually safer. I've had wall snap and break while raising them with wall jacks. Solid doubled plates reduce this risk. Also, solid plates help keep the straight walls straight while raising and while temporarily braced. Additionally, they are much easier to sight straight. I think many block and liners would understand why I don't need lines to sight walls if they ever looked down our walls. Solid wallls usually don't need anything more than several "holders".
Finally, the idea that lapped interior partitions makes a house stronger is a bit overstated. The only way a lapped interior partition is going to add structural integrity is if there is some sort of windbracing installed in the interior partition...something which we commonly do when the situation calls for it. In those cases, 99.99% of the time, we have a continuous solid backing (usually 2x6), which is lapped and solidly nailed. Occasionally we've worked for builders that don't want backing (they use drywall clips to reduce uplift problems)...in those cases we simply use a code compliant simpson splice plate which requires 4 nails in each wall.
Try eliminating the cutouts...you'll be pleasantly surprised.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
When you don't lap the plates, do you strap the walls together?
We have to either lap, or strap, sometimes both because we build in a seismic zone. If it is a shearwall, I don't lap, I strap and I have to use a lot more nails to fasten the doubletop plate to the first plate. The plates act as drag struts and sometimes collectors.
Check out http://www.shearwalls.com We have to do a lot of "stuff" for earthquake loads.
About you marking your studs in bold, I do it the reverse. I mark the partitions and windows in bold (and posts) and the studs in pencil. I do it that way because then the newer guys don't scatter studs where the windows or doors go. Doing it your way would accomplish the same thing.
Tim, since we don't build in seismic zones, we don't have to build shear walls. In fact, I've never heard the term until I started hanging around here and never really investigated what it was. I saw a coupla shows on the science channel this week about construction and they showed a few minutes about shear walls. I now know that the walls tend to shake off their foundation in quakes or high winds.
That might explain why they want us to strap down our houses now, instead of just laying the joist on the foundations like we used to! I still think it's overkill because none of the houses that are just resting on their foundations have ever fallen off!
Anyways, we are required to either lap all bearing walls, or tie them with 3" x 6" plates, putting 4 or five nails in each side of the plate. I just shoot the heck out of them with my hitachi framer if we have to put them on. On most bearing wall intersections though, we have the backer plate lapped and I consider that to be the same strength as a top plate lap or steel plate. I've had a few inspectors refuse our logic and require the steel plate, but most see the logic and give us the green tag.
Regarding the layout system: The main reason that I used pencils on the window layouts and partitions is that I'm still somewhat anal about locating items exactly where they should be and the fat marker that I use would not layout an accurate line. The only framer that frames walls that I layout is me...so I never worry that some rookie will miss a layout because its not dark enough. I carry my own materials and frame what I lay out.
I may go back to teaming up, but for me that presents a problem because I don't work full time. What would my apprentice do till I got there in the morning?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Professor, I forgot to note...I developed the different marker idea to idiot proof the layouts. I was working alone...so the only idiot that I was serving was me!
After I started working with crews again, I noticed that it was quite helpful to have the centers of the studs and joist marked clearly and boldly with the black. It eliminates confusion as the the status of studs that are in close proximity to others. Even if a black mark lands in the king/queen mix, I still put them in....because I know that later I might be stacking a ceiling joist on it and I don't want to have to pull out my tape to locate it. I like just stacking over the black marks and misalligned incidences of framing members has went way...down.
One other point. I don't snap every line on a deck...I just snap the outside walls and maybe one critical interior control line....sometimes two. For me, it's weird but I hate snapping lines. I don't see any point in snapping a 1/2 bath that is 4' x 5'. If I'm framing those partitions, I simply cut my plater 4', and use the actual plate to locate the 5' partition that will mate with it. Usually, I don't snap any lines on partitions 8' or less. Of course, that puts me in the position of knowing what my bottom plate looks like, which usually isn't an issue on 8' or less.
Another for instance would be a tub. We usually frame our tub walls at 60" with a 32" wing wall that normally houses the access panel. I don't snap a line for a little wall like that. I just use my tape and move the wall to 60" after it's standing.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
regarding snapping out the whole deck: I can see your point and in your situation I agree to a large extent as you are mostly building homes that you have no control over ( as in making changes to the floor plan)
In my case I am usually the guy calling the shots and as such I might to decide to tweak wall locations slightly for any number of reasons. Snapping out the whole thing allows me to do that before any walls are built. And of course we all know that sometimes plans lie ..... and when you snap it out ahead of time ..... you can take care of problems before they happen.
However I would guess that most of the homes you build have either been built before and problems corrected ........ or you don't have the authority to make changes anyway.
I can see your point regarding not tying the interior partition top plates to the exteriors although I am not sure I totally agree with it. But you make some valid points. And I have noted that most of the framers around here do not bother to tie them in.
I like Tim's idea of a strap on some of these connections ..... seems like the best of both worlds to me and I think I will adopt that method.
As for your point about not snapping on short walls but using the plate lengths to establish wall location ....... I like that idea and sometimes I do it that way as well.
Thanks for your thoughts. So far this has been an informative thread and I have enjoyed it with the exception of a few posts.
Mark
Professor...I wish I didn't have to make many difficult layout judgments, but unfortunatly almost every house has quite a few. In my earlier years, I used to fret about walls and rooms being off, but for the last 20, I just roll with the punches.
Most of the stuff I do has significant drawing discrepencies and every house is a prototype (thank you Sonny for that analogy). All of us have to be sharp and keep our eyes out for the wide variety of traps that occur if we don't make the right decisions when there are variables. But...even with this large volume of difficult decisions, I still refuse to be the only thinking carpenter on the job. I force each man to become a thinking carpenter simply by making him layout each of his own walls and accepting either the glory or the criticism of his decisions. This supercharges the rookies decision making process. Most guys that are into building like this responsibility. It makes them accountable, but also gives them the responsibility and the satisfaction because when they finish the house, they KNOW they have contributed significantly.
You ought to try empowering more of your crew. It builds strong bonds and gives everyone a share of the thrill.
blue
ps better stock up on a few extra sawzall blades in the beginning...Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I am most definitely not a production framer--but I do like to get the walls up pretty quick because they're not the hard part and whatever time I save there I can devote to head scratchin' on the roofs....
The floor is checked for square, then two perpendicular reference lines are snapped. Layout is done from those, double-checked, then the plates are cut to length and laid down. I stack the bottom and both top plates together. One trick I use is never tacking them together; instead we clamp them with a couple of 16" Sandvik bar clamps. I am usually the lead and do the layout using a tri-square and tape measure. One line with an X on the stud side for commons, a J for jacks, and a C for cripples. Second carp sets up the cutting station with a set of rollers and a 12" chop saw and gang cuts the common studs to length, the helper (if there is one) ferries the stuff and I nail. Jacks and cripples are also gang cut, laid in place, and headers are then cut and placed. Then all those are nailed in and the wall is raised. We square it up once it's vertical and brace it that way with 1x until it's sheathed.
Under some circumstances, we'll sheathe the wall before raising it--on second-storey walls this is standard procedure to avoid working up high with big sheets. I don't cut window/door openings until it's up, then I cut them from the inside with a recip using a long blade (90% of my work is framed in 2x6 for the outside walls).
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I snap out all my lines interior and exterior first for a couple of reasons.
1. I think it is faster to stay on one task until it is complete
2. When laying out your walls you know exactly where an intersecting wall is so you can add backing, can layout exactly where the top of the intersecting wall be to lay out and cut top plates.
I cut all my plates first, tack them on the floor, do lay out on all my exterior walls and then snap lines accross my interior walls, then cut all my double top plates. Then mark the walls and floor for location. Set aside interiors and start framing exteriors.
I pre-cut all my window and door packages except for trimmers. I always slam the header to the top plate and frame down if needed. I put trimmer tight to header and scribe trimmer to king stud.
I sheathe all walls on floor except for short ones under 6' or so, The short ones don't ever seem to come out plumb after standing them up.
Use a router for all window and door openings.
I start with the longest ext. wall first and then go clockwise around the building. All walls after the first have to framed 6" or so over where they go so you can put your plywood on and overhang it 5 1/2". After standing the wall up I pull my toe-nails and use a wall jack to slide the wall where it needs to be.