Hey Everyone,
Just wondering if any of you could help me think of anything specific (that is not “typical”) to ask the finish carpenter whose coming out to give us a quote today.
Obviously, we already plan on going over all the basics, i.e. window trim, door trim, fireplace mantel, stair detail, closet shelving, etc.
Is there anything we should ask that people sometimes forget. Forgive me if this is a vague question (I don’t have time to go into detail of the kind of trim we want since I am already late for a meeting). I was just wondering if there is anything that pops out in your mind as something that is commonly missed or something that people forget to have included in the quote. We don’t want any surprises later, i.e. “well that’s not normally included mam, so that’ll be extra!”
Any help would be appreciated. Once again, sorry for being so vague! We’re meeting with him tonight at 5:00 and I figured I’d seek any advice you have before meeting with him.
Hope you are all having a great day!! 🙂
-Kacy
Replies
kcmarie122,
Finish carpenters shouldn't ever give you a quote without a list of referances..
you'll want to look at their work before deciding! There is a dramatic differance between a guy who carefully fits everything to within a knats butt hair of perfect and some of these paint and putty guys.. What I'd do is ask for a list of their 10 most recent jobs and then do a little quick cross checking. Is any period absent? Lat's say June isn't accounted for. Now what you need to know is did he do a job that wasn't acceptable during June or did he just go in vacation during June.. A subtle question about where he went on his last vacation should get you an answer..
Now to be fair some people aren't any better than some finish carpenters.. They may not pay their bills or not be organized etc.. They may delay his start past the time blocked out for it and thus force him to hopelessly mangle his schedule or pass on the job..
Judgement is called for here.. I prefer quailty over price and flexibility over deadlines but that's me. ...decide what's important to you..
Once you have a list of referances you'll want to look at at least some of his work. ask critical questions such as how tidy is he, does he use objectionable language, how reliable was he?
Here's your chance to put a great touch on the house, up to now almost everything was dictated by budget, code or something.. trim becomes very personal.. see if he can be creative.. if he's good he'll have some great ideas for you, think about them hard. You probably don't have thesame experiance he has and he might know of a wonderful deal on ,... wood or where he can find a ,.......
If you let a great trim carpenter off the leash he might amaze you at his creativety.
Very good points Frency! I doubt we would have thought to ask for all that. Thanks for your advice!
We have a lot of ideas for trim but we definitely would appreciate some help in fine tuning our ideas so that it looks great and well thought out in the end!
You're right, trim offers a really good way to "finish" the house and we want it done right!
Thanks again!
-Kacy
There's almost no way I'd ever go to the trouble of giving you my complete schedule for the last ten jobs. By the time you called me you'd have already seen my work at one of your friend's houses, and I'd be willing to give a couple of additional references. I've never been interviewed in detail at all before being hired for a job, and I think I'd only go thru something like that if you had a new mansion, a yacht interior, and another place in Maui that all needed trim. Maybe a jet interior too?
Kacy, are you in a position to hire a trim person by referral from a trusted source? I don't think there's any way you can use an interview format to find a good trim person. Are you in the position of having to hire someone that UBuiltit sends?
I have to agree with you. If I walked onto an estimate/interview and someone wanted to ask or see about my last ten jobs it would be thanks for the call but I have better things to do.
A couple of references and a possible walk through of a past job is more than enough in my opinoin. The walk through is definately a plus for the homeowner. If you're reasonably intelligent you should be able to gleem enough information from that to make an honest judgement of someones capabilities.
I've been trimming houses for the last 15 years and now it's all referral with almost no 'selling' of my capabilities so maybe I'm out of touch with the way it's done elsewhere but I really don't think so.
jaxstraw,
There is no way that any homeowner is gonna call up all of the last 10 jobs you did either, but I'll bet you that you have those almost at a minutes notice.. Come-on you don't have a list of the last 10 jobs you did? I've got a list of every sale I've ever made! I keep the most recent ones with me in case someone wants to confirm my credentials.. You're asking for a lot when you won't give your resume. That's a level of trust most people doing their house for the first time don't have! Too many horor stories.
The reason 10 was selected and not the last several years is that every contractor I know has their list of "cherries" jobs that really turned out well. Sometimes those pictures are years old.. and their recent work suffers by comparison.
In several cases I know contractors are still showing pictures done by another carpenter a decade ago who has long since stopped working for that particular contractor..
OK, point well taken. Not my way but it does make sense the way you explain it. Like I said, I really don't sell myself anymore so maybe I'm out of touch a little.
"I've got a list of every sale I've ever made! "
Wow ...
Both of them?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Kacy,
Beyond all the excellent advice Frenchy gave you, I would recommend giving detailed written specs/plans to the trimmer to make his bid off of. Let them know exactly what type of trim they will be working with (I had some samples handy), exactly where that trim will be used, types of interior doors, cabinet layouts, etc. This will help make sure you and the person doing the bid be on the same page as to what the bid includes. My trim bids ranged from a very detailed list of all the things they would be doing, to one sentence stating "Trim house per plans and as discussed - $14,800."
As an example of where misunderstanding can occur, we are getting crown in at least three rooms but I wanted the bids to include a separate option for crown in the rest of the house as well. I should have specified what 'the rest of the house' meant but all three subs who bid interpreted that differently. One guy was on the same page as me by taking it to mean all the rest of the rooms and hallways in the house not spelled out in the main bid. The other two picked some subset of the other rooms in the house, which I wouldn't have known if I hadn't asked because their bids didn't spell it out.
And to reiterate what Frenchy said, check out their previous work.
Regards,
Dennis
Also some good points Dennis! Thanks!
We will definitely try and get everything spelled out clearly before we agree to anything.
As for what types of trim material/profile we want, we were kinda hoping the finish carpenter would be able to help us out with that. We have a basic idea from pictures and such but we'd like him to help us with the exact details of what type of trim material/profile will give us the look we're going for. Also, we plan on having all our trim painted white so we'd like his suggestion on what material we should purchase. Especially since he's the one that's going to be working with it!
Is this too much to ask? I guess I just figured that the carpenter would be the "expert" on what looks good and the different styles that are out there.
Thanks again for you advice though! It was very helpful as well!
-Kacy
He should be able to hold a conversation about trim styles and types and what looks good where. If he is vague when you ask him what he thinks or just agrees with what you say then he's just a guy that cuts and nails.
Try this link for great quality paintable material.
http://www.windsorone.com/
gunner
You might be right about the guy being able to talk about trim styles and so forth.
But I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that!
There are a lot of damn good carpenters out there, some do not have a clue as to what style is appropriate for a period house. You going to discount that guy that does great work because he cant tell you what style to chose?
I don't have that problem, I know what style to put where, but everybody doesn't!
I'd be more interested in his quality then his ability to chose the right style trim. Hell when he's done and walks away do you really think he cares about the style of trim that you have in your house?
Doug
there's also a boat load of guys that are mastercraftsmen ...
who just wanna do "their" job ...
not play designer and waste their unpaid time talking about this or that and what kinda print would look nice on the drapes. They just wanna get in and get out ... doing what they do best ... make saw dust and sling nails.
Me ... I love to talk shop. But ... those decisions ARE to be made before I ever show up on a job. What are we talking about here ... I show up ready to produce and get paid ... and the HO's are just now starting to think hard about the trim?
Those decisions SHOULD have been made last month and that trim should be there waiting for me unless I've agreed ahead of time to give a little design time and then arrange the trim order myself.
Once again .... this is a job for the GENERAL CONTRACTOR!
The subs are to show up and produce. Most subs will show and drive immediately away when they hear not only isn't their material there and ready ... it's not even decided upon.
Gotta decide ... buy ... get delivered ... and have time to acclimate.
Hard to do in one day?
This isn't a typical HO job where I go and take a look see ... throw out some design ideas ... then sign a proposal, take a materials check ... and measure/order the trim myself from my own lumber yard arranging for delivery and adding my percentage to the whole deal ...
This is supposed to be a sub/GC deal.
These HO/GC's gotta get their stuff together and fast.
If I do anything more than show and nail ... we do it all my way and I get a cut of the pie.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You have a point.
Hey Guys!
Thanks so much for all your input and thoughts. They are all appreciated. I am very interested in getting your opinions because I know that a lot of you are finish carpenters yourselves or have been through this same situation (picking a finish carpenter).
Just to clarify though, we are not ready for the finish carpenter to start. In fact, we haven't even decided which finish carpenter to go with (we are looking at two different guys). We still have a good two months before we'll be ready. The whole point to meeting with this guy was to get a more accurate quote based on the actual house, not just the print (which is how they quoted it for us several months back). Now that we've got the rough framing almost done, we want to start making some solid decisions as to the style/type of trim which we know will affect the final cost.
Like I mentioned earlier, we do have some ideas for what we want but we'd really like to have an opinion from someone who's seen (and installed) a lot of trim. We don't want the type of guy who just says yes to everything we ask for, even though deep down he knows it's going to look like crap. We want someone who we can discuss things with and who will also give us his thoughts as to how to make it look really nice and get the look we want.
So as to our meeting...we had already met with one finish carpenter last Saturday (recommended by someone we know who used him for their house and was really happy with him). We felt like it went pretty well and he seemed pretty knowledgeable on the type of trim work we were looking for. (we really would like a cottage style type trim, no mitered corners, 1 x 4 sides butted up to a longer, thicker top piece that overhangs the sides a small amount)
He included all the trim work, baseboards, window and door casings, door hanging, more than just the basic closet shelving, cabinet installation, hardware installation, hmm, I'm sure there's a few things I forgot. But, overall we were pretty happy with him and his price.
The guy we met last night is the guy we'd prefer to hire purely based on the fact that he has a long history with our UBuildit Consultant. But obviously we still wanted to meet him, talk with him and get a quote from him to make sure we felt comfortable with him too.
Well the meeting went pretty well but he didn't offer quite as much insight into his knowledge of the cottage style trim. We kinda told him what we were thinking and he just agreed and said that sounded fine. He also mentioned that his quote would only included the basic paint grade MDF closet shelving. We haven't got his final yet so we can't compare it to the other guy. Also, we still haven't called any of their references yet either.
I'd write more but I have to run now. I will update this thread with how it goes!
Thanks again for all your helpful input!
-Kacy
Hey Kacy,
I don't think you're too vague at all. It sounds like you know what you want already and just need a good trimmer/carpenter to lead you a little.
Since you're painting it white you might want to make sure that it's the painter who fills the nail holes, caulks a seem or two, or any other type of fill. I've known a few trim guys that go nail happy on occasion or painters who have walked on the job and stated it's the trimmer job to fill. Just clarify it up front.
Are you using shoe moulding or does the baseboard sit directly on the floor. If so , does he scribe the base to an uneven floor or is it acceptable to let it ride a liitle with the descrepencies. If using a shoe this point is moot.
Don't know if it's new home or not, but in many new homes now due to the quality of the framing material (or the abilities of the framers) sometimes a rough opening needs to be adjusted or replaced. Are they willing to do this for a fee or do they expect it to be fixed before they start. Some trimmers give price to be done in (x) amount of time and if they are held up it's a propblem.
Are you're closet and bath shelves wood or the wire coated shelving ? Do they charge different for each ? Personally I wouldn't use the wire in my house but some people seem to like it.
This is the big one !!!! Do they cope every joint and use glue on every joint ??? This is the must !! You'd be surprised how many customers could care less but it is so very important. It's a simple question but it would be the first I ask.
Do they charge more for hanging a solid core door because they should remove the door stop (at least on the hinge side) and screw it to the jamb before reinstaling the stop.
Are you going with a simple door hardware and stop or if you decide to go with a full mortised lockset how much will it be? As long as we're talking about doors, I always charge more for a front door set and dead bolt. This is always time consuming. Would that be included ?
Don't know if you're including the kitchen but if so do they handle and install the appliances. There have been times where there has been some confusion as to who does this. My standard answer is ,'If you have a wooden appliance I'd be more than happy to install it but until otherwise........' It's god to clear it up first.
Are you having a custom mantle made or buying a stock one and having the trimmer install it ?? If custom most of the questions are answered but if stock it better fit around the surround or tile or stone. Does the mantle need to clear windows ,outlets or room corners. Many stock mantles don't quit fit between windows or hang over corners and such. Figure this out up front. If he's constructing a custom mantle you'd like to see some of that work too.
Hope some of this helps. Personally, I'd find a big development in your area and walk through the house looking at work. You'd be surprised how often people find me working in new house and just walk in and start talking. My work is already on display and I'm available for a short chat. As long as they don't take up too much of my time that day it's fine.
Good luck.
Ask him what he would like for you to get him for lunch.
Ask for references, obviously. Check them out thoroughly!. Once satisfied he might be ok then ask him over for a walk through of your project.
Ask
1) What was you favorite trim job and why did you like it so much?
2) What kind of hand tools do you find yourself using most often?
3) Given a choice with pre built cabinets or on site construction are you comfortable with either? both?
3) How do you hang a door? Go through the process step by step with me.
4) What's the one tool you've managed without but would like to have someday?
The problem with asking questions to qualify a person for a job is that you better know the answer and why you asked. If that were the case you might not have posted your inquiry.
I hope the meeting went well?
I would like to mention the extra cost of painting/ staining finish items, such as cornice, decorative shelving and built-in cabinetry often go unconsidered and can sometimes, double the cost of an item in some cases.
Also, because you mentioned all trim will be painted white. MDF mouldings are an acceptable product (except in areas of exceptional humidity) and cost much less than similar wood mouldings.
>> MDF mouldings are an acceptable product and cost much less than similar wood mouldings.
Yeah, it cost less but it is hell on saw blades. If someone wanted me to run a house full of MDF base I would make it clear they're paying for blades. At $90 a pop, wheres the savings?
Mav
If your buying new blades everytime you cut MDF what the hell you doing with the old blades?
Hell it does not ruin them, just dulls them quicker.
Send me all those ruined $90 blades, I'll give them a good home.
Cant believe on a whole house that you'd change blades more than once!
Doug
If someone does'nt mind working with dull blades than their work probably shows it.
I mark a blade with a magic marker for MDF. Its a PITA to keep changing blades. It takes time, Time is money. Blades are money. Sharpening blades cost money. Where's the savings?
No more MDF for me
Mav, maybe you ought to find someone that knows how to sharpen a blade.
Once I have a blade sharpened its just like it was when it was new.
I think you overexaggerate the amount of time you do blade changes. Cant possibly be all that much during the course of a whole house.
Doug
It freakin' depends what you are doing would'nt you think?
If I'm alternating between MDF and poplar I'm changing blades or bringing 2 saws
I recently did a house that had wainscoting everywhere and MDF baseboard. I'd wainscot a room then trim it with base, then move on to the next room
I don't find MDF hard on sawblades.
Particle board eats saw blades, I've seen sparks fly off particle board.
MDF routers like a dream, sands smooth, is flexible and if some donut drops something against a finished MDF cabinet, I can whip up some bondo and make the damage disappear.
I don't charge more for MDF. MDF or paintgrade is my base price. I charge more for hardwood and substantially more for maple and walnut.
The dust off MDF is a problem, but I have a portable dust extractor, and decent face masks. Its really amazing how clean the jobsites remain when you trap all of the micro dust from the table and miter saw.
I can easily trim out 3 or 4 or 5 houses in MDF without considering a mitersaw blade change.
Gordz, I also have a dust extraction setup which helps a lot with the dust. You must not have to do much tablesawing of mdf, though, or skilsawing because that's where you really notice the blades getting dull. A couple room's worth of mdf beadboard cut with a skilsaw and the blade is toast. Jigsaw blades, forget it, about 3 or 4 outlet cutouts and they're done. Chopsaws blades seem to last the longest, maybe because the chops are quick, I don't know.
Mike
Not the change the subject, much, but i'm planning on asking my painter for references to good trim carpenters and good drywall guys (especailly the latter). Sound reasonable? Seems like a painter is charged w/covering a lot of sins.
I have some Freud LU82M010 triple chip 60 tooth blades that seem to last forever in MDF. I did a web search to post you a link but found the new version LU82M010 are not the same as the ones I purchased in bulk a couple of years ago. The old ones were also high rated for non-ferrous metals and laminates, the newer version is not. Obviously they are now using a softer carbide.
Maybe time to find a new source for blades.
Dont waste your time, Hes pretty sure MDF does'nt dull the blades. I guess some guys spend their money on sharp blades and others on caulk
I'd like to see him run a couple houses worth of MDF base then switch over to a 6 inch crown with that "still sharp" blade.
Mav
Your running your mouth and you don't have a freaking clue.
I'd guess that I've run as much trim as you, I'd also guess that I've cut as much MDF as you have.
Sure it dulls the blades, but so does cutting anything. What do you do, just sit there with your "sharp" blades afraid to use them so they don't dull!
I don't think you've cut anywhere near as much of the stuff as you say you have, sure don't seem like it from your uninformed posts. You might also try swithching to a better blade, those Vermont America blades start out dull.
Doug
I'm getting a pretty good clue whats sharp and what aint around here.
I did 2 rooms of raised panel wainscoting. I used MDF for the panels so I run them over the tablesaw to take as much of the waste as possible before they go on the shaper. At first the panels float right through no problem. Then they slow down and so does the saw. The unisaw starts to struggle. Change the blade and off you go again. Theres a clue for ya
Its not like I'm badmouthing MDF. I used for countless projects in my own house. Its the best thing to come down the pike in a long while. But it does eat blades
Like you, I like to remove as much MDF as possible with a close cut before routing or shaping. Just built a set of 16, one piece, flat panel, cabinet door frames from MDF. No rails and stiles to assemble. Cut the insides of the frames out close and used a pattern forming bit to clean out the insides of the frames. Worked good, just got them back from the paint shop. I'll post a photo sometime soon.
Show your trim carpenter prospect this, and ask him to describe what he is seeing, then get his take on it.
View Image
It's the back side of a jack-mitered window or door casing, and the recesses you see are pocket screw holes.
The trim carp you hire ought to be capable of doing this, and doing it quickly. Your "cottage style" detail at top corners should look like this, without the jack miter.
If your candidates say, "that's not needed, I don't do that," then ask them what they do instead to ensure that your joints don't open up. If they don't have a good answer (like maybe biscuits, but the screws are superior), then keep looking for your man.
You need to have your trim schemes all thought through and on drawings. This is what a good architect does for you. Without it, you're never adequately going to describe in words, what is to be done.
If you cannot do that, because whoever did your drawings left you short, you will either have to turn into a draftsman yourself, or hire somebody, or do plenty of research, then make copies of details from magazines or books.
An alternative might be available to you, but maybe not. If your trim carp candidates can get you into jobs they completed where they think the trim is either like what you are after, or if different, is something you might like to consider, you can go on tour and take notes and photos.
I've seen good trim carps that can execute anything well that they have done before, and execute well anything that is well described with drawings and details, but as to being able to read your mind, well, that is not a trim carp's main duty.
If your local library has a good batch of back issues of Fine Homebuilding, you can find photos and drawings of what you are after, quite likely.
As for your trim materials, you might have a great resource in your area, but maybe not. When I lived out in NE Indiana, I was aware of a number of "door and trim" supply houses that were quite superior when it came to supplying builders with materials. They all had on-the-road salesmen who do complete on-the-site takeoffs, then supply all the door and trim needs for a job. The contractors didn't have to lift a pencil.
The builder would mark hand and swing on every interior door rough opening, right on the trimmer studs. From a quick on-site meeting, perhaps viewing all the trim salesman's sample pieces, the whole trim scheme was discussed, with notes taken by the salesman. Then the salesman goes through the whole house with a tape and measuring wheel, and figures everything, doors included. A couple weeks later, everything would arrive, and the trim crew would start the next day.
why?
That details and construction method has nothing to do what the trim she mentioned.
Save the pocket screws for then ya need them .... paint grade with a 5/4 head isn't one of those times. I'm the king of overkill and I'd laugh at that suggestion.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I'll never again do butted trim head trim casings, exactly the kind she wants, without using pockets.
I'm not proud of the butted trim casing joints in the spec house I completed last year. Paint grade, and tight when they went up (I hired the work done by a trim carp I'll never use again), most are cracked open now. Not a pretty sight. Should I say "hack?" I guess I just did. I'm the hack that let it get done.
The coming-up job I have has the same detail, but it is all natural finish clearcoat on maple and cherry. A shrunk-open joint doesn't cry out so loud on a natural wood job, especially if you ease over the ends and sides, as a flush-butt on a painted job, but we'll pocket them anyhow.
Go to the Gary Katz photo album website and see the rest of the photos posted where I clipped the one I showed here. Done by a guy named JeffB, you'll see a real pro's work.
I have done tons of this type of trim and never have had it
open up.....
what was the cause of your trim coming open? ......
did your trim guy supply material with to great of a moisture % ?...
Where do you live? In areas of wide swings in relative humidity, an un-reinforced butt joint is all but guaranteed to open up eventually. I learned that one the hard way (doh!)
Mike
PNW....our humidity runs between 99%-110% :)
Gene, for the type of trim the poster is talking about a better means of reinforcing the joint is a biscuit. Pocket screws work great when the pieces are the same thickness, but for 5/4 head casings and 4/4 sides, the easiest way I've found is to install biscuits "on the wall", that is, not pre-assembled.
The picture you showed is a good test of a trim carpenter's level of experience, though. If a homeowner showed me that as a test I would probably make something up just to p*ss them off, but as a peer-to-peer challenge I like it.
Mike
actually sounds like sure signs of an amateur painter.
My painter scuff sands, DAP's all nail holes, primes, then caulks each and every joint within 100yds of the project. Then tops coats. Twice.
I cut acclimated stock tight ....
he caulks and paints.
No cracks.
btw ... stepped casings? U know why?
Because in olden times ... wood moved.
reveals , step's and shadow lines are all there to hide those cracks.
nowadays ... I use a professional painter.
I'd surely pocket hole what ever the customer wanted ... but it's priced above the standard ... and the standard. No need ... but I'm willing to charge more money.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Gene was advised to use a stepped casing , but rejected the advise. He decided that 1x4 butt joints [such as you commonly see in rental grade work] would suffice in a 500k house.
the pocket screw method or the buiscuit method is fine if your jamb widths are a true 4 1/2 in. Lack of building experience resulted in each and every one of his jambs to be 4 3/4 in. or more at the head. this causes a need to roll the casing and really messes with the plane of the joint. Each and every window opening was the same way because the walls were let to exede a 6 1/2 in. width and factory jamb extensions were ordered. [used fake sills applied to the jamb extension] .also did not allow for 3 1/2 in. casing when framing so that multiple pieces had to be scribed and cut.
His finish carpenter really pulled his #### out of a jamb and he does'nt even know it. so often I run into these contractor "wanna be's" who expect me to make it look as though they knew what they were doing all along.
along the lines of the original intention of the tread: ask your finish guy what he does in his spare time. If he spends it in his shop , then you know that you have found a man who is a carpenter by nature as well as profession.
that's actually a great point about using 3/4 legs and a 3/4 head.
Like I said ... let's all step back a second and remember the whole point of trim ...
it's to hide the cracks!
that's also why we have steps and reveals ... and when a straight butt joint is used with a simple head and legs ... the legs should be 1x(3/4") and the head 5/4(1 inch).
Like ya said ... a step ... shadow lines ... reveal ... what ever ya wanna call it.
but as Mike would say ... wadda I know?
I price in new blades? For some odd reason I'm not real concerned about adding $100 to the cost of a whole house or major addition trim job? I'm more concerned about working quick and safe (ie .. new sharp blade) and getting quality cuts that don't fuzz up and need more time with the sand paper.
wadda U know either, Jay ... U only do this crap day in and day out too, huh?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Yep! Day in and day out! I eat , sleep , and live finish carpentry, have been for 25 yrs.
But ,hey, wadda I know!!
Quickly and easily? Jack mitering or bead mitering framed doors and trim is an exacting process. It is a cheap way to make DIY cabinet doors and an expensive window or door trim option.
You're right. Doing the jack miter joint takes time. I stand corrected. But, anyone she considers hiring should be able to efficiently execute the joint I showed.
She'll be getting that same joint, without the jack miter, for all her "cottage style" trimmed windows and doors.
As to "quick," the pocket drilling and corner assembly is done production-style, on the bench, and will enable all the casing sets to be preassembled. This photo shows production-style preassembly, albeit with mitered joints and the miter clamps. Not my photo . . . I would be using the Ulmia spring clamps.
With butted casings, pocket screws are the only way one could do preassembly. A joint with 4/4 butting to 5/4 requires a piece of 1/4 masonite as a spacer for the vice-grip clamp when driving the screws to secure the joint.
It only makes sense to me. If you glue and nail your miter joints, why not secure your butts?
View Image
You may get free estimates but not from me. YOU will be qualified before I ever meet you. Be prepared to pay. As a hands on GC I can do everything (no brag--just fact). Materials and their cost is more of a concern these days. People such as yourselves wander through Home Depot, look at designs, jot down prices. When I get the call the problem is usually the person with "a little" information--just enough to be dangerous. Forgotten is selecting trim (say casing) that if stained & finished, has a matching (similar) grain. I took the time to do this on a job, installed it and came back on Monday to find it painted! What?! Painted! Some "friend" wanted to help out! Yours is going to be white anyway so no problem. Think about the finish. I do it all. That means the trim is finished before I ever make a cut. Who bought it, selected it, transported it, and off loaded it? Time is money. Trim that is painted is child's play compared to natural finish. Just get painted trim close, cut, nail, caulk the gap, paint. Not so with natural. Different skill, different labor cost. The description of your needs "sounds" simple but a lot of 1X trim might need a routed edge, not some cove moulding. Good point about "shoe" and uneven surfaces. Or shoe and new sheet flooring (it covers the cut edge of the flooring).
I'm usually just a one man show and people usually hand me the key and go to Italy. Last little thing. Personal experience I didn't want. Insurance. I had a good policy and the client wanted to be a "named insured". No sweat. Why? If I burned his house down while he was in Italy he would have nothing but ashes to come home to.
I could waive the workers comp in this state as a primary owner/worker. It isn't cheap. I got hurt on the job--bad. Client came home to a bloody floor and my cell phone beeping from a low battery. I never could get back on his job (4 years later). But I also couldn't pay the medical bills. We reached an agreement that I would pull off the job and another guy (his choice but I knew him) would take over. Structure your payments so you arn't way ahead.
Government entities (like Medicaid) wanted to know where I was injured with some threat that the client should pay (he paid in a whole different way). I refused to give them the information and told them to just look at me. You would be wise to make sure that your guy is insured, you are a named insured, and that workers comp is in force. It will cost you more because it will have to be included in his proposal/estimate. Make sure he pays it-not just charges you. I haven't felt so low in my life when my client was going to be threatened. Bad move by me. Learned the hard way. Just my two cents. Tyr
Ben,
I understand your points, really I do. The question is should you dictate to the customer what they should check or are you prepared to comply with any reasonable request?
If I'm a customer with no real experiance in such matters I might be overly cautious. I'd like to know that you consistantly do good work if That's what I intend to pay for.. If I'm a new customer with no real idea of those who are well qualified I darn sure wouldn't take someones word for it or even a few pictures.. In my whole life I've never heard anyone say that they are a lousy choice and they do terrible work, yet I'm sure that you'll have to agree with me that there is a lot of lousy work done out there. Pictures too don't tell the real story either. Near me is a several million dollar home and some of the work is great but there are enough sloppy joints and filler on the job to give a very poor impression. I could fill up a scrap book on that house of both great joints and sloppy ones.. (if I were asking for the job which do you think I'd show?)
Thus asking for more than a few examples doesn't mean that I intend to check all of them, it only means that if you comply you have nothing to hide and are reflecting the trustworthyness that I'd want.
Turn this around, by providing a complete list of your recent work you would prove to the nervous customer that you have nothing to hide and that automatically places you above most others. If you are at the top of your field then you can also command a premium. Sure I'm going to be more expensive but I'm the best and the best is never the cheapest! Ask my customers! Here are the 10 most recent customers and their phone numbers, this person and this person for pricvacy reasons asked not to show their house but the rest are proud of my work and willing to show it off.
The really remarkable point of all of this is that when we do have a slow down the best will still command a premium and always be busy while the average trim carpenter will be forced to look elsewhere for work!
First thing first.
What king of coffee do you like?
You can tell a good carpenter by the coffee.
If he don't drink coffee..fire him before you hire him.
Or you can ask him: Do you think we should do crown molding?
And wait for his reaction.
Dino, Dino, Dino
If he don't drink coffee..fire him before you hire him.
What's with this!!!
I don't drink coffee.
Man that's more offensive then trying to take away my blade right saw.
Doug
What's with this!!!
This is one of this things that don't make sense.
Do I wrote that?
I need some coffee.
G'day Doug.
I'm fired too!
as I don't drink coffee either ...
then again ... I don't swap between special MDF and real wood blades either ... a sparp blade is shapr and a dull blade is dull ...
I'm pretty sure actually using the blades makes them dull? I need more research on that though.
anyone worried about the cost of a new or sharpened blade should think about charging a bit more? Me ... I pretty much price a new blade into each project.
Still have a coupla nice 10's and 12's I been thinking abotu getting sharpened ... stopped when I stopped working for the last company ... the project manager would come by ever coupla weeks and take them all then drop them back off sharp as new.
Haven't found the time myself ... so I just plan ahead. I'm pretty sure I'll actually cut some wood on a project ... so blades are just one more material to add to the list.
What do I know ... I don't drink coffee ... anymore.
Used to before kindergarden. Used to have a cup of half coffee and half milk with my Mom before heading out to another rough day.
Now ... if I need to wake up ... a can of Coke will do the trick.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I pretty much price a new blade into each project.
Back in the days when I used to supply saws for the roughers, I used to pretty much figure one saw per job!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I suppose you tough guys just grab the closest supersharp chisel when you need to cut a piece of sheetrock too, right?
I actually have a pretty simple solution; I keep an older, duller blade in my handy tablesaw blade storage case. For mdf I use the older, duller blade. For clean wood or plywood I use a nice sharp Forrest WWII blade. For melamine and laminate I keep a blade just for that too. Takes about 30 seconds to change the blade, much quicker and cheaper than buying a new blade for every job. My WWII blade has lasted about 8 months of daily hard use, and is just getting to the point where it needs to be sharpened.
Sure, I could waste somebody's $100 bill being lazy and just getting a new blade for every job, but why?
Mike
Jeff
I'm starting to think half of these guys never cut or do a damn thing.
MDF is part of the menu, they just as well get used to it.
Hell I was finishing up a kitchen install yesterday and with the same blade I cut cherry, walnut and yes, even some MDF, used the same blade to do it all! Sure you say "no way" but I did.
Doug
Ben,
I may not have the skills many who post here do nor do I have the decades of experiance working in the trades that some have, but I have made a nice living for many decades learning what works with regard to selling and what doesn't
Soon those in the trades will experiance a real slowdown and then the art/science of selling will become critical to their survival.. As things currantly stand most in the trade can pretty much stay as busy as they want to. If Allen Greenspan is to be believed those days are about to come to an end.. Those who clean up their act and move up market will survive while those who don't will turn to delivering pizza's and other such careers.
The trouble with being the boss of your own little empire is that too often you fail to stick your finger up into the wind to see which direction the wind is blowing from. You feel that what worked successfuully in the past will always work and thus there is no need to change or adapt..
I can understand some of the attitude from experianced tradesmen, they feel that salesmen don't work very hard and make too much money for what they do. (an attitude shared by many of their customers about those in the trades) It's true that there are just about as many hacks making a living as there are hacks in other trades. All hacks give those with skills a bad name and it's too easy to dismiss everysalesman or every tradesman as bad or lazy..
The truth is that there are those who really work at their skill level and take all the training and courses needed to stay on top of their field.. They set the bar that the amaures and hacks try to get over..