I wanted to take a moment to address one more thing that I sensed in the Quickstep post. I know a few of you will think “AH-HA! Now I know why Frankie has a bug up his butt!” However, this is not the case, I assure you. We have had this discussion before but it still appears regularly on this site – this time by a fellow Poster. I admit to reading a lot into Q’s post but……..OK, I do have a bug up my butt!!!
I believe Q’s situation is caused by a combination of two factors.
1. Most of the clientele who desire the quality of work which many of us provide, also are people of rank or position and are accustom to giving direction rather than following. Some (not enough) understand the limits of their particular expertise and therefore rely on and appreciate what we bring to the relationship. Others are unfamiliar with that concept.
2. With the popularity of DYI shows (we all know what they are) and the big box stores (we all know who they are) many lay people (and new tradespeople) think they know enough about the building industry. The pervasiveness and low cost of “how to” books and magazines ranging from How To Tile, Paint, Be a Contractor only fans the fire for this mind set. Our trades may not always be difficult stuff to learn but they do require a great deal of time investment for training/ practice to be good enough to charge for it. This is a component not appreciated by the lay person, possibly because then it reminds them of its dollar value and restricts intellectual options when negotiating price. How many times has each of us heard ” Oh, I would do it myself but I don’t have the time.” The intent is to imply that time is the only issue, does not require much skill and therefore should not cost very much.
This resulted in a recent experience. (Here it comes!)
I bid a project for $262K The other two bids were $250K and $192K. The client went for the $192K thinking “OK, the proposal is low, maybe not $60K – $70K low. But even with the COs this GC will still be cheaper than either of the other two GCs. I know enough about construction and contractors. How much of an upcharge can I get? Certainly not $60-$70K!”
Au contrare mon frere! Even with an honest GC the incompetence or naiveness can’t be ruled out or assigned a predetermined cost.
The “low-baller” did not read the drawings correctly/ thoroughly and therefore on at least two separate and significant occasions asked and received the wrong costs for spec’d materials and fixtures. On these alone, the price was off by $12K. I know, because I shmooze with these two particular suppliers and they each stated “Oh, that’s not what the other GC asked for.” This figure does not include the additional labor required to install the fixtures either. Can you say “CHA-CHING!”
I am certain the GC will submit the original estimate from the supply house as evidence that an honest error was made and there is certainly not enough in the anemic budget to deal with this. What’s a Client to do? He’ll have headaches, delays inconveniences unimaginable…and will still have to pay – maybe more.
I have been asked by Archs, friends, and relatives to visit to sites where this has occurred to confirm/ corroborate that the “new” costs incurred would have been incurred regardless of which GC the Client went with.
In this case it’s not “You get what you pay for.” Instead it’s “You don’t get it, unless you pay for it.”
As I stated in my first post to Quickstep: I am not accusing, only wondering if this might be the case.
Peace Out!
F.
Edited 2/27/2004 3:03:30 PM ET by Frankie
Replies
frankie... there it is again... how come you understood what the spec called for and the low-baller didn't?
i don't see why the Owner can't get what he spec'd for his contract price without a Change Order... IE: how come you knew and would have supplied the item for your price... but the "successful bidder" didn't ?
is his ignorance enough , and the quote from the supplier enough so the homeowner has to pony up ?
on some of the architect jobs i've bid in the past... i know the low bidder got hung out to dry for not following the spec.
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Just sos that I'll know what i'm trying to say, I'm going to call:
the successful, lo-ball, under experienced, overreached bidder the GC;
Frankie and the other guy, I just call the Other Bidder(OB);
the HO, and the archy, of course;
and the supplier will be BigBox(BB).
Here's one scenario that I have seen happen.
The HO wanted a bunch of different doors and windows, a real mix and match, though the house looked good when done. The Archy carefully spec'ed each door and window on the Spec's; Doors and Windows page of the prints. The GC took a copy of the Structural Section to the lumber yard for an estimate, and the Door and Windows Section to his BB. Do you see the problem?
Right, the BB priced and delivered a generic window that fit the opening.
The GC proved by his scratch pad that he had bid the cheap stuff and the HO paid the BB the difference in wholesale and the GC made no profit, had to pay the restocking fees, and R&R at his cost.
Excrement occurs.
Frankie,
You said what you said as well said as I have heard it said. I have both threads on my HD.
SamT
Thank you. I'll let you know when the movie comes out!
The posts may be long (winded) but they help me organize my thoughts. Sometimes I am a bit too passionate but I really love and care about what I do. That's gotta count for something.
F.
Frankie-
Thanks for your post and thoughts. It sounds to me like you may have saved yourself a bit of trouble by not being the low bidder. When I am figuring a bid I always worry about whether I am pricing myself too high. When I am doing the job I worry about whether I priced myself too low. If I don't get the bid, I don't have the second set of worries and I can't say that I have lost a minute of sleep over it.
damn.. sam... it took me 10 minutes to comprehend your first paragraph.. now , i'm going back to read teh whole post.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Low-baller was/ is naive or just plain did/ does not spend the proper amount of time on bidding. Think about it. How much time do you spend on bidding? Yeah, I know. You don't do competive bidding. I have to move to your planet! I spend too much. There is very little, if any, money in competitive bidding. Wish I did not have to do it. I didn't when I started, but that was before I learned what things really cost and was so cheap Clients signed before I wised up.
HO did not take into consideration the experience of the GC.
Viola! Recipe for disaster. Still, the HO thinks it can't be as hard on the wallet as I or the equivelent GC were.
Just another case where it seems to pay (as a GC) to be stupid. After all, how often is the GC held out to dry if he/ she doesn't have any assets? Usually this is the situation with newbies.
Some drawings are not as clear as a second grade reader. Reading drawings is a skill as is doing arithmatic and cooking. Experience counts.
This guy followed the spec, but not the whole spec. There lies the rub. I can hear it now. "It was an honest mistake!"
The Client is savy to this but is betting that he will still come out ahead, and can give the GC a difficult time to boot while flexing his muscles demonstrating how "smart" he (the HO) is.
What an efed-up world!
F.
frankie... i've always spent a hell of a lot of time on bids...
new homes.. 100 hours easy..off good prints.. with tight specs...
as far as sam's little sex in the city scenario....... the specs and plans rule...
if joe idiot lets Big Box quote, he does so at his own peril.... (sic ? )...
i know several dudes that finally worked their way out from under because they bid a job wrong and had to eat it..
that's why they call us GC's and yes .... the "C" stands for Contractor.... some think they 're carpenters or builders... but really , they execute Contracts..
the quid pro quo is that the Contractor will provide the product according to the plans and specs... and the Homeowner will pay the stipulated sum...
there is no clause about how if your RFQ to the Big Box is screwed up , all bets are off...
i took a $2000 hit on a job two years ago.... 10 windows were quoted wrong by my salesman , and i carried his price..... i would no more have dreamed of going to the HomeOwner and whining about how i made a mistake and would they please give me another $2000......
just as i would no more think of offering a rebate if i had manged to buy them for $2000 cheaper....
as one of my subs told me 25 years ago.. be a man, stop whining about the price and do your job.. ( not you.. he was talking to me... hah,hah, hah.... )
i mean really... this is so silly... i have to bid on one set of plans and specs ..
and joe idiot can plead ignorance ?
so ..you didn't answer my question... how come you bid it right and he didn't ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/27/2004 9:50:05 PM ET by Mike Smith
frankie... i do competitive bidding .. when i'm sure who the bidders are.. and i think we will all provide the same level of service..
other than that .. i either decline to bid... or i tell them i will be glad to prepare a Proposal for a fee.... on a new house , my fee will be between $2000 and $3000..
guess what ?... sometimes that's the end of that...other times i get my fee... and usually get the job too.....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And Mike,
Now, I had to go back and reread the whole Q post. Following are all of his posts that I found.
From:
Quickstep
Feb-25 8:31 pm
To:
ALL
(1 of 35)
40462.1
I have a pretty big job underway and I'm concerned about my GC's financial status. I'm pretty sure he's close on money because of the rising cost of materials and some other reasons I'd rather not go into here. I'm becoming concerned that he might not have paid some of his subs and that this could create a situation with liens and the like. I don't want to insult the guy, but I do want to make sure I'm covered. What do you think is the right way to approach this? Is it reasonable to ask for proof that the subs have been paid for the work they've done to this point?
I like the idea, but most of the subs have completed the major part of their work and are no longer on the job. Also, there's no bank involved and the GC knows that. I like your non adversarial approach though, any other ideas?
I found a lien release form. It indicates that the work is complete and payment received in full. In my case, the roughins are done, but final fixture installation isn't done yet. Should a sub be expected to sign a document that says he's done when the final work still remains?
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Frankie,
I think Q is would be a nice client to have for a good GC. He sounds as if he is being very concientious in his dealings with his GC. If he is in fact as concientious as he sounds, he probably has reason to suspect something is not right.
Mike,
I fully agree when you say that we are Contractors and we execute Contracts. But, when the GC makse a financial mistake underbidding, it can still be in the HO's interest to assist the GC. If the GC goes under, the home may noit be built. the HO may have to hire a different GC to finish the job and that is never as good as getting it done right by one GC. It can be much cheaper to bail out an honest (but stupid) GC rather than kill him.
BTW, I've got your sayings on my HD also.
SamT