We’re framing our door R.O. widths at door nominal plus 2 inches. Floor finish is either tile or 3/4″ hardwood. How do you do heights of R.O.s? We’ve done the main floor at 82-1/2″, but have the option to change when we move to the second.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
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I use floor thickness + 1 inch for sweep (unless otherwise specified) + door panel + 1/4inch panel to jamb + 1 inch jamb and shim space + 1/2 for good measure.
So a 6' 8'' on hardwood is 6' 11 1/2'' And I use 2'' on the jambs - We do our own framing and I think its easier to hang a door with the 1/4'' per side.
Edited 6/23/2005 8:23 pm ET by quicksilver
I do all RO's at nominal plus 2 1/2". The height is calc'd from finish and may depend on the transition. If the tile or hardwood floor is "x" then the transition will often be x+1/4" or more. If you have these on hand or can at least measure what you'll use then good. For the height I'll err on the short side as my door stretcher doesn't work as well as my circular saw. Also, while a "height" of the floor system may be "x", expect it to be "y" as the finished height will usually grow with underlayment and the floor pieces spanning vagaries in the floor that will create a greater average height than stated in the papers. I also find it easier to shim in a jamb than thickness plane it, quicker too. I'm assuming that nominal door dimensions refer to the size of the door itself, my 2 1/2" leaves you about 3/8" each side after jamb thickness(3/4" twice plus door spacing(1/8" twice). Pre-hungs usually have a stated RO, I usually throw in an 1/8" for the hell of it.
We once built a multi-million dollar home where the archy's print spec on RO's were in fact swinging door sizes. A 36" door won't fit too well in a 36" RO. I about wore out my sawzall on that one, good thing it was on the archy's tab. Don't even get me started on the windows...
83" minimum. Make sure you "wind" the jamb when you cut out the plates.
Does anyone else wind the jambs? Seems like a forgotten technique.
Explain
What is "wind" mean? Is that wind, like the wind blows, or wind, like wind your clock?
Does anyone still have a wind up clock?
blue
If you stand a ways back from the door frame and use your "carpenter's eye " to line one trimmer with the opposite one at a diagonal through the opening , you can tell if the both of them are parallel. When you cut the plates, you wind the opening and then put 2 16's in the cut ends so that the rocker won't move them. As you know, this makes the trim carpenters job a lot easier when he hangs the doors.
Could be that this operation is called somthing different in other parts of the country. What do you call it ?
This is the first time I've heard of this practice by a framer. We do it while hanging doors. Either site through to check the plane or check with a string diagonal, depending on the door set. Entries use the string, interiors eye: rule of thumb. I think this is a good notion, but it seems like if the wall is nailed on the line and plumb to have to adjust pre rock in the manner you suggested would be a short sighted remedy to a larger problem: ie. an out of plumb wall. So yes I've heard of and use it, but not in the framing stage.the proof is in the pudding
We build plumb walls, but in the month or two before the SR is finished and the door is ready to hang, studs can move and yank things around as they dry out.
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I call it sighting through. I always nail plates on both sides of RO when I stand the wall up. If layout lines are right they should be plumb.
Jay, I'm still not sure what the term "wind" means?
We always put two nail behind the king stud before cutting the plates. There isn't any movement after that and I don't think two more toe nailed spikes would do anything more than split the plates.
The idea of standing back and sighting hasn't ever occurred to me either. There are so many variables regarding this idea that I don't think there's really an value to it. I can theoretically think of a way that the trimmer studs would appear to be parallel, but the opening would be out of plumb in four different directions. I guess I'm just happy nailing the partitions on the line and straigtening the top. In most cases the amount that the wall might be out of plumb would be easily within the good carpentry allowances.
I would like to understand the term "wind" though. I've never heard this term on a jobsite in my three decades.
blue
Kinda like winding sticks
Blue, one of FHB's trim collections has an article describing this technique. After years of using a string diagonally across the jamb to check for plane I saw this article and thought, " could it be that much easier". After a couple years of practice and thought I think, yes. The best I can explain: Stand perpendicular to the door (any door will do, one in your house sighting through from outside of latch side to inside of hinge side) and step about four feet back with your shoulder six inches from the wall. Now sight the length of the door jamb and move your head around until you see the length of the latch side jamb with an inch or so of space and then the hinge side jamb (you are standing on one side of the jamb looking through diagonally to the other room). The space between the two jambs lines will be even if the jambs are in plane. The point is to check if all four corners off the door jamb are in plane. This allows the door, when closed, to seat evenly on the door stop. This gets the doors in plane but does not establish plumb. hope this helps respectfully. ryan
Edited 6/24/2005 9:34 pm ET by quicksilver
Quicksilver, I understand why and what you are attempting to accomplish when you stand back and do your sighting. I understand the need to have the entire door opening in one plane so the finish door will seat and shut properly and lie tight to the stop.
I disagree that the techique is accurate though unless you qualify it by saying that you've already checked the trimmer studs for being plumb. If the door opeing is a trapazoid, parallogram and/or out of plumb, you might get a "true" sighting by standing back. Since you already have the plumbstick out to check the door opening, why not just check it both ways?
I still don't have any clue what sense the term "wind" means?
blue
Blue, What you indicated you understood by 'what I am trying to accomplish by sighting for plane' (paraphrase) is what winding is. As doodabug mentioned "winding sticks" try typing that into Google. As far as a trapezoid or parallelogram. I agree this is only one step in the process of properly hanging a door. Sure you can omit it but when you have a problem hang its good to know this technique for diagnosis. Using it will lesson call backs and when its part of the hanging routine this simple sighting method will actually speed up the process. Edited 6/24/2005 10:02 pm ET by quicksilverEdited 6/24/2005 10:03 pm ET by quicksilver
Edited 6/25/2005 8:31 pm ET by quicksilver
I took your advice to google "winding sticks" and came up with my lesson for the day.So I guess to wind a door is the reverse of making a windiong staircase, actually unwinding it would be more accurate.;)http://www.shavings.net/WINDING.HTMhttp://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_340.shtml
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Well you taught me something today. With so much book learning I see I was mispronouncing the name of the technique. That's the thing I like about this forum: here there are peers to actually discuss and hash out problems with a lot of solid input from a lot of knowledgeable people. I'll have to edit my prior response. I don't want to be the bearer of misinformation. Actually I never call the sighting the door plane technique winding but when doodabug mentioned it I saw that it applied. And referred to Google to help clarify. I've always referred to it as just checking the plane. thanks
In furnituremaking and casework, I've been using winding sticks for quite a while to gage the twist in boards, and in door work, I trust an x-crossed stringline to see how cross-legged an opening or frame is. My old tired eyes aren't as good as they used to be.
But for fixes of "wound" rough door openings, the Amish taught me the best tool is a sledgehammer, judiciously used.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
If the door opening is "wound", then it needs no fixing. It would need a tweak if it were "out of wind". A toe nailed 16d is the best way to move it then. If it is so out of wind that a sledge is needed then you have a bigger problem.
Useing crossed strings is a good way to check a door frame where you can't get a good sideways look at it, but it takes four times as long to do it this way. You must do it twice for every opening because on the first try you never know if the overlay side is actualy in wind or simply resting on the opposite srting.
"Wind" is a term borrowed from the finish carpenter. I n the old days when stock was trued on a bench with a hand plane, a set of winding sticks was used to test for plane uniformity. You put one [ of a set of two identical] sticks on one end of the board and the other on the opposite end , and then stand back and visualy line them up. If they appear paralell , then the board is true [ or flat ] .
In framing this is only one in a series of steps you would take to insure plumb and level, but it is the final step that insures a proper opening.
As a trim carpenter , I see all sorts of omisssions on the part of framers that make my job harder. This is one step that would upgrade any frame.
Blue.
I have been building walls without jacks on interior doors lately and going around with the circular saw and cutting plates and then nailing jacks in seems faster? maybe?Dna
I'm not sure it is faster to cut plates and nail two jacks than to just cut plates.
Doing it that way can be easier, but if the interior wall is a supporting wall, there is a potential for trouble, depending on what support you have directly under the subfloor there. Remember, the jacks are what supports the header, and without a plate spreading the load, it becomes a concentrated point load. I have seen this method cause floor sagging more than once.
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Remember, the jacks are what supports the header, and without a plate spreading the load, it becomes a concentrated point load
Piffin, I disagree with your concern.
I don't put much credence on the ability of a 2x4 SPF plate end to carry much of a concentrated point load. It is truly is a concentrated point load, there has to be some type of support under the plywood. Since there is ALWAYS some type of solid support under the plywood, under the concentrated load, then it is acutally stronger to run the jack down past the bottom plate, directly to the deck ply.
blue
Ooops, sorry, Isee that what you were saying is that the circ saw leaves an inch and a half of plate material projecting.
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Blacky, I highly doubt that your method would be faster. If I didn't have an alternative method (see my previous post), then I'd use your method rather than use a sawzall, but the method is slow.
blue
It just a extra check, 10 seconds to do whole wall, studs and door openings.
Dood, that is ten wasted seconds that I can't afford!
I'm not going to do it. Rough openings are called rough openings for a reason. They don't have to be perfect. I nail all my jacks flush and I plumb the corners of each wall. The top and bottom plates are sighted straight between the corners. All of these methods result in door openings that are good enough for any competent trimmer to hang a door in.
Of course the rough frames will never be good enough for a trimmer.
That's a given, no matter how good the rough is.
blue
I really doubt making two cuts as you show is any faster. Even if it is faster, my way is quiet and safe. How long does it take to go out to the truck, get that fancy, custom saw and hook it up. I am the framer and the trimmer so I would have to cuss out myself. There just aren't that many doors in a house.
Dood, I carry that saw in on my first trip of the day and use it all day every day.
I know for a fact that it's the fastest known method know to man. I've done them every other way, and I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't fast and easy (and safe).
The technique shown has so many more applications that it can't simply be discounted because "there's only a few doors in a house". One example: I can cut all the tails on a pile of trusses without moving them using this same technique in a minute or two.
blue
You got me good, but I like quiet.
Handsaw vs. Sidewinder and Coping saw vs. Grinder No contest
They make noise deadening earphones.
I don't even own a handsaw anymore!
blue
We call it plumbing the door frame, but we do do it pretty much the same. If we forget or miss one before SR, you can still toenail at the plate to twitch it. The baseboard will hide the bruised SR
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But winding isn't exactly plumbing the door frame, is it? It is only putting the sides in the same plane. The beauty of it is that even if your wall is a tad out of plumb , the door will still strike correctly. Of course, if it's 1 1/2 tads out of plumb , then you have a different problem.
"Of course, if it's 1 1/2 tads out of plumb , then you have a different problem."just a tad of a problem;)
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"83" minimum. Make sure you "wind" the jamb when you cut out the plates.Does anyone else wind the jambs? Seems like a forgotten technique."I've never heard the term "wind" before either. I don't run my plates through anyway. I cut them right to the opening when I'm laying them down, for me it's faster. It neve made sence to me to go back and cut them later. Joe Carola
dittoI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
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I work alone most of the time. If I build a wall on the floor and then stand it up it is alot easier to pick up if the plate runs through. If I nail wall piece by piece than I cut plates to fit.
Very true doodabug. It is harder controlling a wall when hoisting it alone if the plates aren't ran through.
99.99% of the guys in here use a sawzall to cut plates out and since it's slower, I myself would probably precut the openings if I had to pull out that dreaded sawzall. Since I don't have to use the sawzall, I never mess around precutting the door openings. It's much faster and more accurate to cut them after the wall is standing. It might take more wildcat skill to do it my way, but after you cut ten of them, it becomes second nature and is as easy as making any simple cut.
blue
Not sure by your post what method you are using to remove your plate. I was taught a trick by a carpenter a while back to kerf the bottom, 3/8 to 1/2 inch, of your bottom plate while laying out. It make sawing them out a little easier quicker and neater. Its also a professional signature to a homeowner, archetect etc. In the same vein as Lee Wulf tying a Royal Coachmen with his fingers in front of a outdoor magazine editor. It might not be real nessessary but it'll get you a little bang for your buck.the proof is in the pudding
Exactly. I kerf 3/4 and it is especially friendly to my handsaw on concrete floors.
Does anybody out there leave out the shoulder stud and simply use a circ saw to cut through? They are made so from the short side of the foot to the blade is 1 1/2". Coincidence? We usually leave them off until the roof goes on so that there is less chance of water causing it to twist.
Yes, this leaves the header unsupported during construction, but I find the pros outweigh the cons.
wow .....cool, learned something new. from now on I will "wind" all my doors openings.
I once was on site years ago at a big house. There were 2 framing crews. Us and another. We came on board to take over the back framing and exterior trim work. I noticed the other crew cut all there door plates with a chain saw. they just zipped right thru.... lot faster than the sawzall.
anyone else use a chain saw?
Every bit as important in framing R.O.s is to make certain jacks and kings are stitched up flush, and if not, flushed up with a power planer before drywall.
Saves time during inside trimout, in that the drywall doesn't have to be bashed or chopped, in order to make the casings lay flat.
I have been guilty of letting framing subs not do this, but now that we are framing ourselves, we're keeping this in mind.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Ya see? What'd I tell you? You're Learning!
"Anyone else use a chainsaw?"
Yes, I have on occaision used a chainsaw for cutting out plates. It is the fastest way to cut out a plate, even faster than Blue's method.
However.... You really have to be good with the chainsaw and take care not to cut too deep. After a while you develop a pretty good feel for it.
I usually use the skillsaw against the kingstud method, but if I have my chainsaw on the job I'll use it.
Now... could some computer-literate person please explain to me why I am suddenly typing in italics? What the heck just happened? God sometimes I really hate this prospero format!
Mark,Your run of italics begins with the letter i. If you hit the command button on a Mac, or the analogous button on a PC as you hit the i, that puts your text into italics in many common word processers. Just do it again to stop the italics. Hope this helps.Bill
No Wango, I don't leave 1 1/2" and add the jacks later. Too slow.
I don't sawzall.
I don't precut.
Heres a coupla pictures that demonstrate how/what I do. Be forewarned that I do not recommend this method unless everyone is wearing a full suit of impenetrable steel armor. If you don't have this steel armor, then don't try this method. Also, don't try this method in any country that has safety laws. If you are framing in a third world country, then you probably won't be hounded by overzealous ohsa hounds.
blue
PS I don't believe leaving the jack out would cause any unwanted settling. Most headers are sized to carry all the weight of the finished materials and roofing. I've never seen any headers failing in the rough because of lack of jacks.
The ones I was referring to that had settled had the plates cut at the kings and then the jacks seated on the subfloor
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"I work alone most of the time. If I build a wall on the floor and then stand it up it is a lot easier to pick up if the plate runs through. If I nail wall piece by piece than I cut plates to fit."That works for you because your shoe/sole plate is on edge and your face-nailing and then standing the whole wall up and once it's up you nail the rest of the shoe back down.In my case after the lines are snapped I mark all the door openings and then start at the door openings nailing the shoe right on the mark running the plates long and cut them off where the wall ends. I also just run the 2x across the whole length of the wall and nail it down and cut the door opening out depending what length material you have and use that piece for a small wall so your not wasting material.The way you do it is easier for you because your face-nailing the walls first tacking your shoe on the line and then raising the wall and then going back with a sawzall or circular and cutting out the openings later. The way I do it nailing down the plate first on all door openings and then raising the walls and toe-nailing them and going back to cut out all door openings is never an issue because it's done already.There's been times where someone didn't cut the door opening out and the wall was raised but I would cut out the shoe before the trimmer would go in by running my saw up against the king stud and cutting it out because my saw from the end of the table to the blade is 1-1/2".This is just another example of how there are different ways of framing.Joe Carola
Edited 6/25/2005 9:09 am ET by Framer
I am a little confused. You nail bottom plate to floor, nail studs to top plate, then stand up?
"I am a little confused. You nail bottom plate to floor, nail studs to top plate, then stand up?"Yes, I nail then bottom plate to the floor and then tack the first of the two top plates to the bottom plates and then nail the top plate into that plate with all the proper lapping and lay everything out on the sides and the top of the top plates.We pull the tacks out and pull the two top plates back and nail the headers, king studs, studs, corners, nailers on and then slide the bottom of the studs until they hit the nailed in bottom plate and then lift the wall up. Once it's up I nail the corners studs in and temporary brace them and then toe-nail the rest of the studs off.Once every wall is up and top plates laps are nailed we put our door and windows trimmers in and then nail in window jacks and sills. Once that's all done we brace the walls up.Here's a couple shots of the shoes and plates with the doors openings done before I pull them back.Joe Carola
The key word in your reply is "we". I'm not saying your way is wrong.
I work alone most of the time.
I doubt I could do it that way on a 14' wall byself. When I stand the wall up I nail it to the layout lines, cut one door plate out, then I'm done with that wall. I saw it done the way you are saying on Hometime but there was two guys lifting.
Either way you have to cut for a doorway.
6 -10 1/2" works everytime for swingers.
blue
That's what I use. Just stopped in to see why a simple question could end up with this many responces...islanders still use wind up clocks - power goes out regularlyI broke mine recently, and had DW buy a new one. It is battery operated digital. barely makes a sound so doesn't jar me awake. I'll have to go shopping my own self.
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